It may be interesting to use Montage Connect and save an .X7B file of a few of your problematic performances.

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-as-master-keyboard-explain-zone-relationship-to-montage-parts

This is an interesting read for the basics of external MIDI control - there may also be a tutorial article or video which covers similar material.

I also started to look at http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/downloads/manuals/nord-electro-5/Nord%20Electro%205%20English%20User%20Manual%20v1.x%20Edition%20D.pdf
to see if there were any snags possible on the downstream device.

Take a look at pages 14-15. The scenarios are not complete, but closest seems like scenario 3 where the Montage replaces what is shown as the Nord Lead keyboard in the picture.

On the NE5:

Blurb on settings: "Any changes made will automatically be stored until
changed again except for MIDI Local Control On/Off which
will return to its default Local On setting everytime the Nord
Electro 5 is powered on."

2 - CHANNEL GLOBAL sets the channel the
Nord Electro 5 transmits and responds to.
Could be set to 1–16, or Off. Default is 1.

3 - CHANNEL LOWER RECEIVE determines the
MIDI channel which Part Lower responds to.
Can be set to 1-16 or Off. Default is Off.

4 - CHANNEL UPPER RECEIVE sets the MIDI
channel which Part Upper responds to. Can also
be set to 1-16 or Off. Default is Off.

5 - CHANNEL UPPER SPLIT sets the MIDI channel
used in MIDI Upper Split mode. Can be set
to 1-16 or Off. Default is Off.

6 - CONTROL CHANGE MODE determines how
the Nord Electro 5 handles MIDI CC (Control
Change) messages. Possible settings are Off,
Send, Receive or Send/Receive.

7 - PROGRAM CHANGE MODE affects how the
Nord Electro 5 handles Program Change MIDI
messages. Possible settings are Off, Send,
Receive or Send/Receive.

... note the NE4 had better docs on the MIDI implementation, so I'm looking at those too: http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/downloads/manuals/nord-electro-4/Nord%20Electro%204D%20English%20User%20Manual%20v1.1x%20Edition%20D.pdf

Looks like the NEx series does not implement MSB/LSB - just program change 0-127

I'm not sure what you have there in terms of the NE5 complete setup. I would probably start with:

Channel Global = MIDI Ch 1
Channel Upper Receive = Off
Channel Lower Receive = Off
Channel Split Upper = Off
Control Change Mode = Receive
Program Change Mode = Receive

Note: the asterisks are because I wonder if after the NE5 changes programs, it may be sending back MIDI program change information to Montage causing some strangeness. I'm suggesting to place this as Receive only on the NE5 to prevent the NE5 from sending any PC messages back to Montage.

... if this is really what's causing part of the strange behavior, then Montage also has the ability to ignore externally sent MSB/LSB and PC changes - so there are multiple options how to stop the issue of unintended MIDI chain reactions.

It's important to understand the MIDI features of both sides and how the ecosystem you are conjuring works. Not all contributing factors to "strangeness" are due to the Montage - but an interaction including the NE5 and your ability to navigate through. Hopefully something here can help. I'm at a disadvantage because the Nord NE5 does not have an extensive MIDI implementation chart - perhaps Nord can be queried for support or you can do a better job of searching for a more complete document.

Thanks Jason. I will try to set NE5 to only receive midi message. But honestly I think that this nothing change because I've only one midi cable from out montage to in NE5 so how can montage receive some midi message with this cable configuration?
The only way to have a right check on this topic is that bad Mister try montage behavior with some other midi instrument.
Nord electro 5 use MSB/LSB as I know.

Nord's documentation leaves me at a disadvantage as MSB/LSB is not shown in NE4D or NE5 documentation while program change is. In fact, the NE5 just has a CC table and no real MIDI implementation table (like the NE4D does have).

Standard (non-USB) MIDI should be half duplex - so you're right using MIDI-out (Montage) to MIDI-in (NE5) connectivity: that any data sent out MIDI from the NE5 shouldn't make its way back to Montage. Thought I may have been on to something - but that's not going to help.

I've tested also setting NE5 to only receive midi signal without send.
The problem remain the same. I notice also that in montage program sequence number if I put M1 before "@RD 1 gallery" and I change the montage program from down to up in number the M1 work right, instead if I change program from up to down passing throug "@RD 1 gallery" the program M1 don't work.
I think that the problem is montage; maybe yamaha engeneer should controol this things because with this kind of bug it is impossible to use montage to recall program in other device....or better....it is very dangerous and with a lot of limitation.
I hope that bad mister can test it and I'm hoping for firmware fixing.

Other test: I've excanged part 1 to part 8 in "@RD 1 gallery" and the problem is disappeared.....so the fact that midi message is in part 8 make a mistake in montage working. If the part with midi message is the part one everything work.....
This is a workaround but I don't like it so much because I need to invert order of first part of preset program when I modifie it to use also with external device.

Other test: I set midi message on the part 1 of original RD 1 gallery and it send program change but have a bug on volume control change. Infact if I save this new configuration with setted zero volume midi message in original part one of RD 1 gallery no volume midi message is sent in the time of choosing this program.

I wrote wrong things. Unfurtunately exchanging part 8 and part 1 of RD1 gallery the midi message volume it is not sent correctly.
This program doesn't work correctly with any workaround.
🙁

Ok, that's actually a good thing, because it should not have worked. Before I spend any more time on this could you reduce the problem to something I can actually follow, because I'm officially lost in what you are trying to accomplish. If you don't mind, try to break it down to just the real issue. Thanks.

Please recognize that I do not have a NE5 so my tests are going to be based on normal MIDI gear. If there is something I need to know about the NE5, I'm going to count on you for that information.

Let's start with What MIDI channel you have dedicated to the NE5?

I've dedicated Channel 11 on my NE5.

Bad Mister wrote:

Ok, that's actually a good thing, because it should not have worked. Before I spend any more time on this could you reduce the problem to something I can actually follow, because I'm officially lost in what you are trying to accomplish. If you don't mind, try to break it down to just the real issue. Thanks.

Please recognize that I do not have a NE5 so my tests are going to be based on normal MIDI gear. If there is something I need to know about the NE5, I'm going to count on you for that information.

Let's start with What MIDI channel you have dedicated to the NE5?

Bad Mister or some one on this forum have tested the behaviour of montage to recall program on other midi device? Do someone have test to send zero volume midi message together with program change?
Have someone tested this montage functionality with some nord external gear?

If I had your X7B files of a few of the problematic performances I could monitor MIDI CH 11 using MIDI-OX and see what is sent when switching between the two performances you have setup. That would at least, for me, let me see what your Nord is seeing in terms of MIDI messages.

Without the NE5 - there is a limitation - but I'd be testing just looking at raw data on the bus and maybe targeting one of my MIDI devices as well (non Nord - but also non-Yamaha).

Jason wrote:

If I had your X7B files of a few of the problematic performances I could monitor MIDI CH 11 using MIDI-OX and see what is sent when switching between the two performances you have setup. That would at least, for me, let me see what your Nord is seeing in terms of MIDI messages.

Without the NE5 - there is a limitation - but I'd be testing just looking at raw data on the bus and maybe targeting one of my MIDI devices as well (non Nord - but also non-Yamaha).

OK...as soon I can I try to give you what you suggest...as soon I have time to do that. Thanks.
So with your external gear you don't have any problem?

Andrea wrote:
So with your external gear you don't have any problem?

The short answer is "I don't know".

My main usage for the Montage is as a live standalone synth. I have outboard gear that I've collected over the years, but my main goal in performance gear is to have as little as possible - ideally one hardware synth and nothing else. This is what I've generally been performing with over the years although there was a point I used the EX5R (rack) which meant I had to have two pieces - a MIDI controller and the rack.

Although I've done limited MIDI work with a tonewheel organ rack unit - just to "A/B" the differences between Montage's implementation and the dedicated "Clonewheel" hardware - I really didn't dig into the MIDI response beyond listening to the "clonewheel" sounds using Montage as a controller.

If there were any strange things related to volume or program changes - since I didn't really care about any of those - I would have ignored them if they appeared and done something to get the ecosystem to work for my purposes. The demands are certainly higher if I gigged with this combination - which I do not - so I'll have to take a second look.

I know that what you have done in programming these performances represents a lot of work and when something doesn't do what you expect - this is understandably frustrating. Luckily - Yamaha provides excellent help as long as you can meet the specialists half-way. By this I mean that you must provide sufficient information on your setup and goals, clearly communicated, so they can help. You've been doing OK thus far - there are some gaps - but I'm sure these will be worked through. Keep an open mind and look at this as a learning opportunity both for the Montage and Nord hardware.

I've setup the keyboard finally. Here's what I've tested:

Hardware / MIDI config

Montage MIDI out (DIN connector) connected w/MIDI cable to Voce V3 (clonewheel) MIDI IN.
Voce V3 audio output (unbalanced) connected to Montage A/D input L(MONO)
That's it - fairly simple.

Settings - Voce:
MIDI receive channel = 1

Settings - Montage:

Utility/Settings/Advanced: Zone Master = ON, Device Number = All (note: no MIDI sent from external to Montage, so this setting is a don't care for me - meaning the influencer to change this to a single channel is not present)

Utility/Settings/MIDI I/O: MIDI mode = MIDI (not USB), Local Control = On, MIDI sync=MIDI, Clock out=off (although this is residual from other experimentation, would normally have this set to ON - functionally a don't care in this scenario from testing thus far)

A/D input defaults to route out to Main L&R - this is the setting - A/D trim is set to 10-oclock or so, a value below the peak indicator level

Performance "m1" with following key settings:
Part 1: Int SW = Off (meant just to send note on/off to external MIDI device = Voce V3)
Kbd Control = ON (I want mashing the keys to do something independent of the part selected - not critical for single part performance such as this)
Zone = ON, Transmit = Ch1, LSB/MSB (on) + ProgNum (PN on) = 000/000 + 001, Vol/Exp (on) = 0, Pan (on) = C

Performance "m2" with the following key settings:
Part 1: Int SW = off
Kbd Control = ON
Zone = ON, Transmit = Ch 1, LSB/MSB (on) + PN (on) = 000/000 + 021, Vol/Exp (off), Pan (off)

Performance "m3" with the following key settings:
Part 1: CFX + FM EP
Part 2: Piano
Part 3: Piano
Part 4: Piano
Part 5: Keyboard
Note: this is the same as the performance "CFX + FM EP" stored as name "m3" but not changed from preset. All parts have ZONE = off

Placed m1, m2, and m3 on adjacent "slots" in live set.

Test:

1) First, I start with "m1" which switches the V3 to the assigned MSB/LSB+PN and also sets the volume to 0 (no sound)
2) Use fader #1 to increase volume and play some notes - I can hear the notes at a fine level these are coming entirely from the Voce V3 which is audio routed from its audio output to Montage's A/D input - which I hear out Main L
3) Used live set to press "m2" to switch to m2 - this changed the program on the Voce V3 - so now there's a different sound. Volume is still set to whatever it was left at from step 2 (new fader position). Since I have volume control turned off - moving the fader up or down doesn't send volume messages to the V3. Which is fine - I'm just testing if the volume was somehow set back to m1's volume of 0 - which it does not do.
4) Used live set to press "m3" to switch to m3 - the performance with no zone control and just a preset with no special consideration for MIDI. MIDI is still transmitted out 5 parts (I'm sure - not looking at the stream) - so the Voce still plays "layered" with the Montage CFX piano sound. Selecting "m3" did not make the Voce V3 volume go down to 0 - it's still set at what it was set to previously. Using the fader #1 will both reduce the volume of the "CFX + FM EP" part (internal) and the Voce V3 organ (external). Even though there's no zone control - MIDI is still sent. If I want to turn this (the organ = external) off, I need to move part 1 to an unused part (part 6) and turn part 1's keyboard control to OFF so it doesn't send MIDI. There's other ways to do this - but this was easy. Incidentally, the Voce also responds to MIDI Ch 2 (which is the lower manual vs. upper = Ch1) so I also moved PART 2 to part slot 7 and turned keyboard control off for part 2. This reproduced the full CFX + FMX performance while staying away from sending anything to the Voce as long as part 1 or part 2 were not selected. Anything that is selected will become deselected when you press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME). Alternatively, if I wanted to hear the organ for whatever reason - I could select PART 1 - which is layered with the internal "CFX + FMX" PART. I could, if I wanted to, turn Int SW=OFF so the CFX+FMX did not sound and only the external organ would sound.

I couldn't reproduce your result - but not everything is the same. Different settings. Different MIDI hardware. I think the goals of what you are trying to achieve have been reproduced here. I can take a look at your X7Bs (plural) once you send those over.

Jason wrote:

I've setup the keyboard finally. Here's what I've tested:

Hardware / MIDI config

Montage MIDI out (DIN connector) connected w/MIDI cable to Voce V3 (clonewheel) MIDI IN.
Voce V3 audio output (unbalanced) connected to Montage A/D input L(MONO)
That's it - fairly simple.

Settings - Voce:
MIDI receive channel = 1

Settings - Montage:

Utility/Settings/Advanced: Zone Master = ON, Device Number = All (note: no MIDI sent from external to Montage, so this setting is a don't care for me - meaning the influencer to change this to a single channel is not present)

Utility/Settings/MIDI I/O: MIDI mode = MIDI (not USB), Local Control = On, MIDI sync=MIDI, Clock out=off (although this is residual from other experimentation, would normally have this set to ON - functionally a don't care in this scenario from testing thus far)

A/D input defaults to route out to Main L&R - this is the setting - A/D trim is set to 10-oclock or so, a value below the peak indicator level

Performance "m1" with following key settings:
Part 1: Int SW = Off (meant just to send note on/off to external MIDI device = Voce V3)
Kbd Control = ON (I want mashing the keys to do something independent of the part selected - not critical for single part performance such as this)
Zone = ON, Transmit = Ch1, LSB/MSB (on) + ProgNum (PN on) = 000/000 + 001, Vol/Exp (on) = 0, Pan (on) = C

Performance "m2" with the following key settings:
Part 1: Int SW = off
Kbd Control = ON
Zone = ON, Transmit = Ch 1, LSB/MSB (on) + PN (on) = 000/000 + 021, Vol/Exp (off), Pan (off)

Performance "m3" with the following key settings:
Part 1: CFX + FM EP
Part 2: Piano
Part 3: Piano
Part 4: Piano
Part 5: Keyboard
Note: this is the same as the performance "CFX + FM EP" stored as name "m3" but not changed from preset. All parts have ZONE = off

Placed m1, m2, and m3 on adjacent "slots" in live set.

Test:

1) First, I start with "m1" which switches the V3 to the assigned MSB/LSB+PN and also sets the volume to 0 (no sound)
2) Use fader #1 to increase volume and play some notes - I can hear the notes at a fine level these are coming entirely from the Voce V3 which is audio routed from its audio output to Montage's A/D input - which I hear out Main L
3) Used live set to press "m2" to switch to m2 - this changed the program on the Voce V3 - so now there's a different sound. Volume is still set to whatever it was left at from step 2 (new fader position). Since I have volume control turned off - moving the fader up or down doesn't send volume messages to the V3. Which is fine - I'm just testing if the volume was somehow set back to m1's volume of 0 - which it does not do.
4) Used live set to press "m3" to switch to m3 - the performance with no zone control and just a preset with no special consideration for MIDI. MIDI is still transmitted out 5 parts (I'm sure - not looking at the stream) - so the Voce still plays "layered" with the Montage CFX piano sound. Selecting "m3" did not make the Voce V3 volume go down to 0 - it's still set at what it was set to previously. Using the fader #1 will both reduce the volume of the "CFX + FM EP" part (internal) and the Voce V3 organ (external). Even though there's no zone control - MIDI is still sent. If I want to turn this (the organ = external) off, I need to move part 1 to an unused part (part 6) and turn part 1's keyboard control to OFF so it doesn't send MIDI. There's other ways to do this - but this was easy. Incidentally, the Voce also responds to MIDI Ch 2 (which is the lower manual vs. upper = Ch1) so I also moved PART 2 to part slot 7 and turned keyboard control off for part 2. This reproduced the full CFX + FMX performance while staying away from sending anything to the Voce as long as part 1 or part 2 were not selected. Anything that is selected will become deselected when you press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME). Alternatively, if I wanted to hear the organ for whatever reason - I could select PART 1 - which is layered with the internal "CFX + FMX" PART. I could, if I wanted to, turn Int SW=OFF so the CFX+FMX did not sound and only the external organ would sound.

I couldn't reproduce your result - but not everything is the same. Different settings. Different MIDI hardware. I think the goals of what you are trying to achieve have been reproduced here. I can take a look at your X7Bs (plural) once you send those over.

As soon I can I will post my x7b.
Also yesterday (I'm preparing next live show) I test that if I add at preset existing program a new part 8 to recall external program the montage behavior is wrong and midi go in block still recalling the same program; if (in the same program that cause problem) I exchange part 1 of preset program with new part 8 that only send midi message no problem it happen. That's a bug because montage should send the same midi message in both cases (both with part that send midi in position part 1 or position part 8) but it doesn't happen.
May you try this situation?
Thanks