Andrea wrote:

Ok. I will do that. But Bedminster where are you disappeared? Maybe there is a bug in montage and there is a user with a problem and you don't care. No good.:(

Bedminster here 🙂 (I've been called a lot of things but never that, I think). 🙂

I loaded your file and took a look at it. Sorry, perhaps you think you're the only one with questions, this is not the case. And it is not a simple "How's the soup question?" So I wanted to be sure I have a solution for you - which I'm sure I've found. But there are a few wildcards, (and mistakes in your programming) Because I don't have a NE5, I can't determine what you expect to happen or why you have programmed the Live Set as you have. My first look, it seems you are not using Zone Master properly. It's as simple as that.

YOUR PROGRAM HAS THE FOLLOWING DATA which I cannot know why you set this way:
1) You are sending GM Bank Select MSB/LSB 000/000 - I don't think your NE5 is GM or even takes Bank Select, but I do not have one to test. If you are not using BANK SELECT, you should set that parameter OFF.
2) In some of the Performances you have left the INT SW = ON making the "INIT Normal (AWM2)" active _ that sounds terrible. It's a raw piano wave at full velocity ? Why? Notice I have defeated that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's what you need to know:
_ The Montage is unique in that it can, and does, transmit on multiple MIDI channels, simultaneously. As many as 8 channels. That is a maximum. Eight at a time. That is seven more than your typical keyboard controller.

Appreciate that for what it means: each internal Part is on a separate channel. If you are including the NE5 as one of the devices you are transmitting to, the math is this simple: It becomes one of those 8 PARTS. Therefore, you can have: 7 Parts maximum for internal and 1 Part for the external Zone (the NE5). That would be your eight simultaneous Parts, on eight different channels. Clear? You can then designate whatever external channel you desire (as you'll see I've designated PART 8 to the external device and I've set it to Transmit OUT on Channel 11).

Because you've likely never had a keyboard that's capable of transmitting on eight channels, this is likely a bit of a head-scratcher. This is okay. We never build stuff just to be easy - or - you could say: powerful is not always easy. Take your pick.
🙂

WHY THE ERROR OCCURRED
MIDI is serial... this means one event travels after the other. So the last one sent has priority. Make sense? This will come into play because the last event sent will override an earlier event sent. This is true throughout all MIDI.

The complexity comes when you are deciding to use the Montage internal sounds simultaneously with your external device and you do not respect the implications of the maximum of eight, simultaneous, PARTS.
If that is your goal (to play in combination external and internal sounds) I highly recommend you select one specific Performance slot (Part Settings) to address that external device. And stick with it.

Important note: If ever you need to use all eight PARTS for Montage you simply have to program the ZONE SETTINGS for PART 8 so that the Transmit Channel is OFF, and the INT SW = ON. Make sense?

In the "test_fixed.X7U" file attached - this is what I have done - please try it.

If you do not want the Montage to transmit Out on a Channel, activate the Zone Master, and turn INT SW = Off. (You went into the PART and turned the Element Switch Off… that works... creative, I guess, but is not the intended method of working). Please use the INT SW = OFF to prevent an internal PART from sounding. The Montage uses PART 1 as the "anchor" - so there is ALWAYS a PART 1... you can see how I've set this PART so that the INT SW = OFF and the Transmit Channel also = OFF.

So when you only want to play the NE5 (as I’m assuming you do from the “@NE5 - Hammond 1” PERFORMANCE - notice how I’ve turned the INT SW = OFF for PART 1, and set the External control in PART 8.
I’ve designated and named PART 8 “Ext ch11"

When you moved from Performance to Performance, the last place you've left your external device will persist, unless you create new data to change it. You did not. This is why I recommend you pick one specific PART to be your External device (I've selected PART 8). Reason... Montage builds Performances up from PART 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on.

It is true about MIDI, in general: The settings you make remain until you change them.

Recommended: designate the first seven Parts for the Montage and Part 8 for your external device. You can only transmit to a maximum of eight Parts simultaneously from the Montage Keyboard. It makes sense to reserve 1-7 for Internal communication and slot 8 for External communication. This way you always know that FADER 8 will control the NE5 (makes it easy)!

If you do this you will not run into the issue you have. I hope I have explained it clearly enough. If not, please don't hesitate to ask questions. Actually, your question is very helpful for others. I've not run into the issue you were having - but I'm sure others have or will. So its good that you have posted this question.

Hope that helps. Let us know.

Bad Mister wrote:

Andrea wrote:

Ok. I will do that. But Bedminster where are you disappeared? Maybe there is a bug in montage and there is a user with a problem and you don't care. No good.:(

Bedminster here 🙂 (I've been called a lot of things but never that, I think). 🙂

I loaded your file and took a look at it. Sorry, perhaps you think you're the only one with questions, this is not the case. And it is not a simple "How's the soup question?" So I wanted to be sure I have a solution for you - which I'm sure I've found. But there are a few wildcards, (and mistakes in your programming) Because I don't have a NE5, I can't determine what you expect to happen or why you have programmed the Live Set as you have. My first look, it seems you are not using Zone Master properly. It's as simple as that.

YOUR PROGRAM HAS THE FOLLOWING DATA which I cannot know why you set this way:
1) You are sending GM Bank Select MSB/LSB 000/000 - I don't think your NE5 is GM or even takes Bank Select, but I do not have one to test. If you are not using BANK SELECT, you should set that parameter OFF.

NE5 use bank select because there is group of 50 programs in 8 different location recalled from different bank...to be precise MSB is always 0 and LSB change to recall right bank of 50 programs

2) In some of the Performances you have left the INT SW = ON making the "INIT Normal (AWM2)" active _ that sounds terrible. It's a raw piano wave at full velocity ? Why? Notice I have defeated that.
Because in this case I play NE5 keyboard....I only need to recall right program from montage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's what you need to know:
_ The Montage is unique in that it can, and does, transmit on multiple MIDI channels, simultaneously. As many as 8 channels. That is a maximum. Eight at a time. That is seven more than your typical keyboard controller.

Appreciate that for what it means: each internal Part is on a separate channel. If you are including the NE5 as one of the devices you are transmitting to, the math is this simple: It becomes one of those 8 PARTS. Therefore, you can have: 7 Parts maximum for internal and 1 Part for the external Zone (the NE5). That would be your eight simultaneous Parts, on eight different channels. Clear? You can then designate whatever external channel you desire (as you'll see I've designated PART 8 to the external device and I've set it to Transmit OUT on Channel 11).

Because you've likely never had a keyboard that's capable of transmitting on eight channels, this is likely a bit of a head-scratcher. This is okay. We never build stuff just to be easy - or - you could say: powerful is not always easy. Take your pick.
🙂

WHY THE ERROR OCCURRED
MIDI is serial... this means one event travels after the other. So the last one sent has priority. Make sense? This will come into play because the last event sent will override an earlier event sent. This is true throughout all MIDI.

The complexity comes when you are deciding to use the Montage internal sounds simultaneously with your external device and you do not respect the implications of the maximum of eight, simultaneous, PARTS.
If that is your goal (to play in combination external and internal sounds) I highly recommend you select one specific Performance slot (Part Settings) to address that external device. And stick with it.

Important note: If ever you need to use all eight PARTS for Montage you simply have to program the ZONE SETTINGS for PART 8 so that the Transmit Channel is OFF, and the INT SW = ON. Make sense?

In the "test_fixed.X7U" file attached - this is what I have done - please try it.

If you do not want the Montage to transmit Out on a Channel, activate the Zone Master, and turn INT SW = Off. (You went into the PART and turned the Element Switch Off… that works... creative, I guess, but is not the intended method of working). Please use the INT SW = OFF to prevent an internal PART from sounding. The Montage uses PART 1 as the "anchor" - so there is ALWAYS a PART 1... you can see how I've set this PART so that the INT SW = OFF and the Transmit Channel also = OFF.

So when you only want to play the NE5 (as I’m assuming you do from the “@NE5 - Hammond 1” PERFORMANCE - notice how I’ve turned the INT SW = OFF for PART 1, and set the External control in PART 8.
I’ve designated and named PART 8 “Ext ch11"

When you moved from Performance to Performance, the last place you've left your external device will persist, unless you create new data to change it. You did not. This is why I recommend you pick one specific PART to be your External device (I've selected PART 8). Reason... Montage builds Performances up from PART 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on.

It is true about MIDI, in general: The settings you make remain until you change them.

Recommended: designate the first seven Parts for the Montage and Part 8 for your external device. You can only transmit to a maximum of eight Parts simultaneously from the Montage Keyboard. It makes sense to reserve 1-7 for Internal communication and slot 8 for External communication. This way you always know that FADER 8 will control the NE5 (makes it easy)!

If you do this you will not run into the issue you have. I hope I have explained it clearly enough. If not, please don't hesitate to ask questions. Actually, your question is very helpful for others. I've not run into the issue you were having - but I'm sure others have or will. So its good that you have posted this question.

Hope that helps. Let us know.

Thanks bed mister
I've tried your suggestion (putting any internal part with zone ON and transmit channel Off) but the issue remain as it is. Please take a look to the attached file.
There are 3 programs that recall loacion 1, 2, and 3 in NE5.
When I select program 1 montage recall correctly location 1 on NE5
When I select program "it work" montage recall correctly location 2 on NE5
Till now if I select "program 1" and program "it work" everythings work fine, but this is why I've putted to part 1 of these programs the part that send midi message to NE5.
Now if I select program "don't work" (program with part 8 that send midi message to NE5) montage recall location 3 in the NE5 (and this is right) but happen that after that if I select "program 1" montage still send again midi message that recall location 3 and this is the problem.
I did a video to show you but it is too big 33MB so I can load here.....is it there a mail where I can send this video so that you can immediately see what happen.

When I select program called don't work the montage still send to NE5 the same program location (3) also if I change program in montage and it should send program 1 or 2.

Please take a look to the attached file
You can see 4 raws with both montage and NE5 display
step 1 ok
step 2 ok
step 3 ok but it generate problem because
step 4 not ok because step 3 (use of program don't work) cause the problam that montage still send the same midi message also if I select "program 1" or "it work"

consider that program "it work" and program "don't work" are the same program but with part 1 and 8 excanged. In the program "don't work" part 8 is the one that send midi data and in the program "it work" part 1 is the one that send midi data. For the rest these two program are the same...no difference....but one work rigt and one don't work because cause the fact that after select it montage still send the same midi message again and again also if I select "program 1" or other program that shouldn't send any midi message

Andrea wrote:
I did a video to show you but it is too big 33MB so I can load here.....is it there a mail where I can send this video so that you can immediately see what happen.

You should post the video to a video hosting service such as Youtube, Vimeo, Flickr (90 second limit), Veoh ("unlimited size"), Dailymotion (150MB, 20min limit), etc. - then copy/paste the link here.

Andrea wrote:

Please take a look to the attached file
You can see 4 raws with both montage and NE5 display
step 1 ok
step 2 ok
step 3 ok but it generate problem because
step 4 not ok because step 3 (use of program don't work) cause the problam that montage still send the same midi message also if I select "program 1" or "it work"

consider that program "it work" and program "don't work" are the same program but with part 1 and 8 excanged. In the program "don't work" part 8 is the one that send midi data and in the program "it work" part 1 is the one that send midi data. For the rest these two program are the same...no difference....but one work rigt and one don't work because cause the fact that after select it montage still send the same midi message again and again also if I select "program 1" or other program that shouldn't send any midi message

Good idea Jason
https://youtu.be/XW1BtJOe9jg

As you can see from the video till I jump from program "program 1" to program "it work" everythings work fine (NE5 jump from location 1 to location 2 as aspected).
As soon I select program "don't work" NE5 go to location 3 but it remain there also if I select "program 1" (NE5 should go to location 1 but it remain in location 3).
Note that if in the program "don't work" i excange part 1 and part 8 so that part 1 will be the one that send midi message this program work correctly (in the fact this is program "it work").

Are you saying the file I send you does not work?

Andrea,

Your use of the "quotes" command here is burying some of your feedback. Example:

BM wrote:

YOUR PROGRAM HAS THE FOLLOWING DATA which I cannot know why you set this way:
1) You are sending GM Bank Select MSB/LSB 000/000 - I don't think your NE5 is GM or even takes Bank Select, but I do not have one to test. If you are not using BANK SELECT, you should set that parameter OFF.

And you replied:

NE5 use bank select because there is group of 50 programs in 8 different location recalled from different bank...to be precise MSB is always 0 and LSB change to recall right bank of 50 programs

However, since your reply was "buried" inside the quote - it was easy to miss. I would suggest always placing your feedback/new content outside of the quoted text - and not "inline".

If there are other "inline replies" to that message (buried in the quote) - you may want to rewrite it so your feedback is not skipped.

I found your inline response because I was going to reply about the MIDI bank switching response that I had suggested the same thing and you had previously responded this is needed for the NE5 although I could not find supporting documentation. Perhaps just a sign that Nord has relatively insufficient documentation when it comes to their MIDI implementation and you find out the "tricks" through word of mouth (forums) or your own experimentation.

Stefan, Are you saying the file I send you does not work?

Bad Mister wrote:

Stefan, Are you saying the file I send you does not work?

Thanks Badmister, I tried the test file that you sent to me but now:
- program "don't work" is fixed (and I can't undesteand what have you done....may you explane to me what have you change? It seams the same than before....
- Now old program that before work rigt don't work anymore; for example "@NE5 - hammond2", @NE5 - hammond 3", "NE5 - EP" that befor you modification they work right, now they doesn't work anymore....if I select one of them montage still send the last program choosed from the tree that you sent to me fixed (I mean @NE5 - hammond 1, M5 don't work)
So now I'm very confused. I sent to you in the same live page list 16 all these programs (your fixed and the programs that before work and now not)...these "old" program you can find tham also in page 1 of live set list.
Do you have change something in common montage setting?
What have you change in the program "don't work" respect the one I sento to you? I can't see any difference...
Why now the "old" programs (that before work rigt) stop to work? What's happen?

- program "don't work" is fixed (and I can't undesteand what have you done....may you explane to me what have you change? It seams the same than before....

It is not the same as before. I explained in the post in which I provided the file. The problem was not where you think. There is no bug, it is in how you use the Zone Settings.

- Now old program that before work rigt don't work anymore; for example "@NE5 - hammond2", @NE5 - hammond 3", "NE5 - EP" that befor you modification they work right, now they doesn't work anymore....if I select one of them montage still send the last program choosed from the tree that you sent to me fixed (I mean @NE5 - hammond 1, M5 don't work)

You gave me specific Live Set 16 to fix. I fixed it. It is now for you to fix others. I recommend you always use the same PART for your external device (I used PART 8) I explained why.

So now I'm very confused. I sent to you in the same live page list 16 all these programs (your fixed and the programs that before work and now not)...these "old" program you can find tham also in page 1 of live set list.

Please try to read and understand what I say about MIDI. Once you change a program it will stay changed until you send it a message to change again. Once you change it with a wrong message, it will stay wrong... until you you correctly change it again. If incorrect Part Zone Settings make a change, you must be consistent.

The reason that recalling "M5 work right" worked when returning to "@NE5 - Hammond 1" and the other one did not work was because of the inconsistent use of the PART. when you return to the "@NE5 - Hammond 1" from the "M5 don't work" - the "@NE5 - Hammond 1" sends Program Change 1.... BUT, because another PART still has information telling it to then CHANGE AGAIN to Program Change 21. M

MIDI is serial means one-after-the-other. So ZONE SETTINGs for PART 1 go first, and ZONE SETTING for PART 8 go after. So the Nord makes two very quick changes. First to 001 (as told by PART 1 settings) then it is told to go to 021 by PART 8 settings... trust me that is what is happening. So again use the same PART (every time) to address the Nord. I used PART 8.

Do you have change something in common montage setting?

No.

Look at YOUR "@NE5 - Hammond 2"
Look at the one I reprogrammed "@NE5 - Hammond 1"

You use PART 1 for the Nord, I use PART 8 for the Nord. I always use PART 8 for the NORD. This way I can control what the NORD does. You keep moving around the control PART which causes your issue. Even though you are only using NORD from this setup, continue to use the same PART to set it up. Since you are using the Montage in other LIVE SETs, and since Montage always builds Performances starting with PART 1, then 2, then 3... and since you have just one external device. I set it at PART 8. By using PART 8 *EVERY* time, you can know what and where to look for how your external device is setup.

Since you cannot leave PART 1 of Montage Performance blank - I programmed ZONE SETTING INT SW = OFF for PART 1.

What have you change in the program "don't work" respect the one I sento to you? I can't see any difference...

The problem was not in either "work" or "don't work" - problem was in "@NE5 - Hammond 1" where you used *Part 1* for the external device.
Notice I always use Part 8 to address external device. In this Performance I added a Part 8 named "Ext ch11"... which has the Zone Settings for the Nord. Part 1 addresses the Montage internal (INT SW = OFF).

Why now the "old" programs (that before work rigt) stop to work? What's happen?

In "@NE5 -Hammond 1" you use slot 1 to address the NORD, notice I did not. I consistently used Part 8 to address the Nord.

Please, take my recommendation:
Use Parts 1-7 to address internal Montage only
Use Part 8 to address external device.

If you only have one Montage and one Nord. You can then setup PERFORMANCES that have 8 PARTS... this means seven PARTs could be Montage (1-7) and one PART could be Nord. If Nord is capable of two channel reception - then setup six PART for Montage (1-6) and two PARTs for Nord.

If you use any other slot, you will need to recognize that once you send the Bank Select and Program Change from that slot, it (the external device) will remain there, until you send a message to change. I explained this in the previous post. I mentioned it because it is important information when attempting to understand why your Performances are not working.

It is difficult for me to know what you want to accomplish with each of these Performances (I don't have a Nord, you do)

I can only guess... My guesses were this:
From the PERFORMANCE "@NE5- Hammond 1" it seems you want to play the Nord by itself. Therefore, I setup two PARTS: PART 1 and PART 8

PART 1 is to silence the Montage: Remember the Montage will always have something in PART 1 (Always). I even named the PART "Int Sw Off"

Notice above that Transmit Ch is OFF, and INT SW = OFF
What you have been doing is editing the PART and turning OFF the ELEMENT SWITCH to silence the Montage. You do not have to do this with the ELEMENT SWITCHES. Turning OFF the INTERNAL SWITCH is what you want to do.

PART 8 is to setup the Nord NE5:

Notice that the Transmit Ch is 11, and INT SW = OFF

_______________________________________________

If you look at your setup for "@NE5 - Hammond 2"
You use PART 1 only.
You do not turn INT SW = OFF (you instead turned Element 1 OFF to silence the Montage - which is Okay! I can understand why you would do this... since the FADER sends cc007 Channel Volume, it does allow you to view the VOLUME of your external device because red LED on FADER now indicates MIDI Volume. Normally the LEDs only indicate what is happening to Montage. But by turning ELEMENT OFF, you can view what MIDI Volume is happening on that channel OUT via MIDI. This is not a problem. (This is how I setup Chick Corea's Montage). So that you can see what Volume setting is happening externally. So if you want to continue doing this - it is fine. It does not cause any problems. But what causes the problem is *which PART slot* you are using!!!

As soon as you recall one of the WORKING Performances... notice how your "@NE5 - Hammond 2" changes. After recalling the corrected "@NE5 - Hammond 1" you will see that your "@NE5 - Hammond 2" now has two instructions for the Nord!!!! The first one (PART 1) tells it to go to Program 005, (PART 1 Zone Settings) and then the second one (PART 8) Zone Settings tell it to go to Program 001

Why, because that was the last command given for this slot... And it comes second (after the command from PART 1)

And because MIDI is serial it follows the instruction in order FIRST 005 (what you wanted) and then 001 (what you don't want).

AGAIN here is the KEY:
Use always the same PART to address the external device.
Use always the same PART to address the external device.
Use always the same PART to address the external device.
This will avoid sending it two commands. This will avoid your problem. It also has the added benefit of always having FADER #8 control your external keyboards volume. You will always know where to look for information concerning your external device. There are so many benefits - in addition to it working RIGHT! 🙂

Remember that MIDI will persist. This allows you to select a program on your external device and it will remain there until you decide change it. So if you have another setup for MONTAGE + NORD, and you want the NORD to stay the same, you do not have to program anything. It will simply stay on the LAST Program Change you sent it.

You have been changing it without knowing because you are NOT aware that you are sending two commands from your PERFORMANCEs (one from PART 1 and another from PART 8... which you inherited from the last Program Change!)

Hope that helps.

Thanks Badmister, trust me I read you previous post a lot of time before answere you and I tryed to apply your suggestion; the only one that I didn't undesteand before it was to use the same part (part 8 is perfect) to send midi message to NE5.
As soon I can I change all programs using your suggestion and than I answere you about the result. The strange things and my only doubt is that I start to program montage putting anytime in part 8 the part that send midi message and I was forced to change this channel to one for the programs because sometimes there was a problem......but maybe it could be that I programmed some program with part 1 to controol NE5 and I didn't undestood that this program done the problem.....
So thanks for you patience and your help....as soon as I can I post here the results of modification driven by your suggestion.
Thanks again

Bed Mister I'v putted all part that send midi data to part 8 of montage of page 1 of my live set list program and everythings work right!!! Great!
The only things that seams don't behave like you say is the led of fader 8....in my case it stay fixed to the same position also if I've turned off all part 8 elements. But fader work driving volume of external device correctly....only the led doesn't follow the fader position.
Thank you very much.....from now I start to reprogramming all my montage program to fix everything.
Very precious! :--)

The LEDs will, naturally, indicate the internal status. This is normal.

The Fader can send cc007 Out via MIDI. The lights will always reflect the volume setting of the internal Part. This is normal.

I mentioned, if you would like the LED to reflect the volume of your external device, you can "fool" the system, by leaving the Internal Switch = On, but [MUTE] the Part- this way the LEDs will still indicate the internal Part, but the internal Part has no way to sound.

... and keeping company with Chick Corea in fooling Montage just feels like the right thing to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahzl3UCSiqQ