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Super Knob Timing option

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Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Super early to make feature requests, but here it goes anyway since it applies to previous models. Maybe there's already a way to do this.

I think it would be neat if a transition time could be specified for the Super Knob, say in seconds. This could help morph between scenes instead of jumping, and would quickly free up a hand by simply specifying a target value with the knob and letting the instrument make the transition within the specified time.

The motion control can partially achieve this, but it has predefined values and then can't be used further.

 
Posted : 12/10/2023 8:52 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

I think it would be neat if a transition time could be specified for the Super Knob, say in seconds. This could help morph between scenes instead of jumping

I'm not sure I follow what you want to have happen.

Can you describe how you would use it and what it should do?

The motion control can partially achieve this, but it has predefined values and then can't be used further.

What does "can't be used further" mean?

An MS can loop forever and can be synced to the tempo or beat so that the loops happen at the right time. You mention wanting to use 'seconds' but music doesn't really use 'seconds'. That is what tempo does.

The Super Knob Motion Sequence parameters like Sync and Speed are on the performance level Motion Control -> Knob Auto screen.

 
Posted : 12/10/2023 9:23 pm
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Basically introducing a transition time when you move the knob from position A to position B, based on the number of mili/seconds specified.

So if you switch from Scene 1 which has the SK set to 0 to Scene 2 with SK value of 100, it would morph between the two in say x seconds, instead of jumping. Same for manually operating the knob, it would steadily morph to the new value - which would help with sustained notes (like pads and strings), and overall stabilize the transition. Hope this makes sense.

 
Posted : 12/10/2023 10:21 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

Yep - it makes sense now what you want to do but I don't know of any way to do it.

There is nothing that manual super knob movement will 'trigger' that might start a chain
of actions.

And scene changes can cause a new motion sequence to kick off but it won't have any way
to leverage the difference between a current parameter value and the new one stored with
the scene.

The only possible option I see is if an external device can take care of the timing and triggering
and then send MIDI commands to put them into effect.

 
Posted : 12/10/2023 11:25 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Super early to make feature requests, but here it goes anyway since it applies to previous models. Maybe there's already a way to do this.

I think it would be neat if a transition time could be specified for the Super Knob, say in seconds. This could help morph between scenes instead of jumping, and would quickly free up a hand by simply specifying a target value with the knob and letting the instrument make the transition within the specified time.

The motion control can partially achieve this, but it has predefined values and then can't be used further.

In general, like musicians use TIME, the synth can address time blocks in terms of Measures/Beats, instead of seconds/milliseconds. The Super Knob can be used to gradually move a destination parameter from one value to another, using a Motion Sequence to change its position… the initial movement can be triggered, on demand, by a dedicated [MS TRIGGER] button.

The trouble with this particular ‘request’ is it is seeking to be applied to data that is not always a logical destination. Here’s what I mean… several of the items being changed by the SCENE benefit from or actually require immediate changes, or may simply not be logically changed across a span of time. They are best changed, immediately like via a “switch”, on/off, this value/that value.

For example, the Common Assign and Super Knob, unlike the Scene buttons, can gradually morph parameters from one value to another value. But what about a parameter like the “Arpeggio Type” currently playing… this actually benefits from a command that definitively commands a change either immediately or at the top of the next measure. A gradual transition from one arp phrase to another is not (really) feasible (nor is it necessarily desirable). It would benefit from a simple *switch*.

But let’s take Part Volumes as the destination parameter, say you want to change the Mix volumes of several Parts between the two regions (Scenes) of your composition.

Knowing that a Scene is a form of “snapshot” memory (the antithesis of a smooth, gradual time oriented transition) you might decide to accomplish such a gradual-type change independent of the Scene change command, altogether. Like a “snapshot” all items show up together… like in a camera snapshot. Gradual change is the opposite of a snapshot!

What you can do…
For example, say you want Scene 1 (representing your first Verse) to gradually crescendo in volume so that starting halfway through Scene 1 the volume increase begins and halfway into Scene 2 (your Chorus section) it reaches the full target volume. Instead of using MIXING 1 Scene settings to affect the change… construct a MSeq to do the job.

Musically, the Scene 1 (first Verse) and the Scene 2 (Chorus) still can be recalled immediately (as the music requires), but you can program the Super Knob to gradually adjust Part Volumes in an automated fashion. You can define the amount of time for the volume changes and you will independently trigger when you want the fade-up to begin.
So, instead of using the Scene to memorize the change in volume, you designate the Super Knob’s MSeq to do the deed, over time.

Tap the [MS TRIGGER] button to start the Motion Sequence designed to gradually increase the Part Volumes of the Parts you desire to change. The Super Knob’s dedicated Motion Sequence can be designed to take place over a set number of Measure/Beats and can be triggered by hitting the button or sending the appropriate CC# (MS Trigger) to trigger the Sequence Phrase. (cc89 is the default).

Concept: the Super and Assign Knobs are like dimmer switches-continuously variable, while buttons (switches) act like a regular on/off switch. Some items (parameters) will benefit from gradual change other will simply need an abrupt switch change.

The way you would accomplish gradual transitions between Scenes (which will always be a switch) you can independently assign the parameter to control via an AssignKnob, linked to the Super Knob. The Super Knob movement can then be automated.

If you want to program gradual change to a parameter that can be memorized in a SCENE (“switch”), you might want to design a way to do that gradual change with a Knob (“dimmer”)… then set it so you can manually start the automated “phrase”.

If your volume or pan or send amount or envelope setting, etc., *change* is to take 4 measures to execute, construct a MSeq with enough CYCLE Steps and an appropriate ramp type curve to do the job. Set it so that instead of starting with a Note-on from the Keyboard or the Arpeggiator, it is triggered by the dedicated [MS TRIGGER] button.

Halfway through the Verse, tap the [MS TRIGGER] button, change to [SCENE 2] when appropriate, the MSeq will continue to adjust the targeted parameters (provided they do not receive other commands counteracting your Knob assign movements).

In general, a [SCENE] recall will immediately alter the current setting (the exception is when it is instructed to respect the current BEAT where it will seek the next Measure or current beat reference). Super Knob value changes can be orchestrated via the dedicated Super Knob Motion Sequencer. The changes via the Knob system can be set to independently “play” like an automated phrase.

 
Posted : 13/10/2023 9:54 am
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you both for your replies, using the motion sequencer + trigger was my workaround as well.

There are a few downsides or things to be aware of:
- The Super Knob position needs to be at the predefined start value before the Motion Sequencer is triggered
- You can no longer use the Motion Sequencer for other modulations in that scene
- It is an additional button press before changing the scene, which needs to be carefully timed.

A great additional advantage to scene transitions would be that even manual Super Knob adjustments will be smooth and perfectly timed (when needed), in any direction and between any values. It would also free your hand during long adjustments.

I have a feeling that more often than not, a gradual scene transition (however short) is more preferable to a jump, especially when there are sustained notes between scenes. Musically, I think it's naturally expected that the segue between two parts of a song to be gradual, even if it's very fast. Of course the timing value could be 0, when abrupt is what is needed.

From the Montage M videos, I noticed that the Rotary Speaker has a transition time implemented. It would be the same except applied to the Super Knob.

 
Posted : 13/10/2023 1:47 pm
Jason
Posts: 7908
Illustrious Member
 

If a scene could memorize [MS TRIGGER] and either latch it to a value or, probably more often, momentarily toggle during a scene change that would memorize this trigger (and a third option to not alter it - so the options could live in the existing MS/Arp scene without having to disable the memory altogether to ignore internally pressing the trigger button) then one could automate time based gestures with scene buttons.

It's a worthwhile idea to throw at Ideascale and see what happens.

I know that this generation Scenes haven't changed much (if any). Scenes are so powerful and useful it was an area of the first generation that could have used expansion. I'm thinking this is a fair target for future firmware improvements although one doesn't know what kind of requests will eventually be implemented. And, as always, one should expect that nothing will change.

For now, finding a different way to accomplish the goal is good advice.

In addition to a motion sequence, there are arpeggios that move assignable knobs. You can look into if you could utilize any of these to do what you want then the arpeggio could be triggered by a (specific) key and the control arp would do the rest. I'd use a non-looping arp although when the arp is complete I'm not sure if the knob resets to the original position or not when using control arps. This may be a breaking limitation at least in using the preset control arps.

 
Posted : 13/10/2023 1:57 pm
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

[quotePost id=123764]The trouble with this particular ‘request’ is it is seeking to be applied to data that is not always a logical destination. Here’s what I mean… several of the items being changed by the SCENE benefit from or actually require immediate changes, or may simply not be logically changed across a span of time. They are best changed, immediately like via a “switch”, on/off, this value/that value.[/quotePost]

Indeed, that's why I think this would be a Super Knob timing function, instead of a Scene transition. The heavy lifting of the implementation is already there, it's just a smoothing function with one SK parameter (duration) that would need to be added.

 
Posted : 13/10/2023 2:19 pm
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

For anyone interested, feel free to upvote on IdeaScale: https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/159163

It doesn't look like Montage M has been added yet.

 
Posted : 02/11/2023 2:15 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

All assignable Destination parameter values and the Super Knob movement can be automated using the Motion Sequencer.
A Motion Sequence can be created to automate the movement (change) of any assignable Part or EL/OP/OSC Control Destination via a “MS Lane”. This MS Lane can address the Destination via the Control Assign screen.
Additionally, there is a dedicated MSeq for the Super Knob — this means, you can address any Part and parameter destinations within, even though you are not in direct Keyboard Control with them.

It can be triggered manually by the dedicated [MS TRIGGER] button or CC89. (You do not have to use Note-On or an Arpeggiator to trigger the movement; but you can, if you wish).

You simply need to reference musical timing values, if you need to be precise*, between immediate and 64 measures (when you want to reference time values via the tempo), or simply use the MSEQ’s Speed setting (set by ear).

*often when working with video or film regular clock-timing references are useful… but most DAWs can show clock time in hr:min:sec:ms along with the visuals, and can probably show musician-time in measures:beats, when necessary.

Just FYI.

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 1:32 pm
Darryl
Posts: 783
Prominent Member
 

Unless I'm not understanding what you are trying to do, I do this on almost half of my Performances (Songs) via DAW based sequencing, THE best sequencer on the planet IMHO!! 😉
I set the all the parameters of what I want the SuperKnob to morph from/to, and have it do so at just the right point/time, taking the exact specific amount of measures or time in seconds (or split seconds) to go from 0 to 100 (as per your example), and at the same time I can have it also switch Scenes automatically for me at the exact time I need it to, while the SuperKnob is turning and numerous other sequencing is happening.
It works great for when I'm playing a song that is keyboard heavy and I just want to keep my hands on the keys, while this automation happens for me...

I haven't tried doing this with an ARP, but it might be possible to have all this sequencing triggered via an ARP that is applied to all the PARTs you want to morph for the number of split seconds you need it to..!? I would need to experiment and try it to see if it's possible, but maybe someone else who knows the capabilities of ARPs (in terms of sequencing things other than just notes) can elaborate further on whether it's possible..!? If it is possible, then I would set the tempo in Pro Tools the same as the song and save that same tempo in the Performance on the Montage. Then if it needs to be set for so many 'seconds' instead of measures, then in Pro Tools I would just flip the tempo to show via 'Time' in seconds, find the start and end markers, draw the line to morph the SuperKnob, and then switch the tempo back to measures. Save the MIDI and import/config as an ARP...

Again, if it's possible to do this level of sequencing automation in an ARP, I'm thinking I could set Scene 1 with that ARP enabled and the SuperKnob set to the right starting position, trigger the ARP, and sequence the ARP to move the SuperKnob for the exact number of split seconds I want, then maybe have it switch to Scene 2 and set that Scene with no SuperKnob value and that ARP no longer set/enabled..!? Or maybe Motion Sequencing would be the better option perhaps..!?

 
Posted : 04/11/2023 3:53 pm
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thank you both, you are correct. While definitely possible, both the Motion Sequencer and using a DAW require elaborate setups and careful planning, and can't otherwise be used freely in live settings.

If I am not mistaken, Montage M's rotary speaker has this effect build in - there is a transition when switching speeds, which is of course to match the real thing.

Certain effects can sound very coarse and require a very steady hand when adjusting over long periods (risers, filters, etc.). This option would make such adjustments steady and easier to operate. It would also provide smooth scene transitions regardless where you left the Super Knob.

I know development is not easy, I only make this suggestion because I believe the stage is pretty much set - except for this one function. I don't want to get hanged up too much on the type of timing (bars or seconds, etc.), it's not important. The only reason I mentioned milliseconds, is because very short transitions times would smooth out SuperKnob manual adjustments.

 
Posted : 07/11/2023 5:57 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

If I am not mistaken, Montage M's rotary speaker has this effect build in - there is a transition when switching speeds, which is of course to match the real thing.

Actually, that has to be programmed. The “real thing” (Leslie) actually transitioned speed almost immediately. The whole “transition time” feature found in modern technology is to emulate a Rotary Speaker system where the belts that rotate the horn and the woofer get loose (this happened with age; originally that was a reason to replace the belts. This caused a ramping up in speed — how this became popular, is a thing of myth and legend.

But look into the VCM Rotary Speaker parameters. You can determine the Speeds:
Horn Fast, Horn Slow, Horn acceleration, Horn deceleration
Rotor Fast, Rotor Slow, Rotor acceleration, Horn deceleration

It is very programmable. When you hit the switch point, the Effect executes the transitions. There are 3 Presets, but the User can store as many Performances with custom settings.

When you create a Motion Sequence, you can also outline how it occurs, how fast it changes values, the direction or directions of the value change, all in great detail (similar to the transitions within the Rotary Speaker model). You can create your Motion Sequence, name and store as many as 256 of them to your User Bank. There are also many already Preset - ready to use.

It’s a programmable synth… things like you are asking about are well within this synth’s capability. You may want to invest some time exploring it. Once you learn how it works you may find it worth it. This way anytime you need it you can recall it and assign it to your Performance.

 
Posted : 07/11/2023 2:04 pm
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks, I wasn't aware the rotary transition was programmed, I haven't got my hands on the Montage M just yet (still trying to decide between M7 and M8x).

I just noticed there is a brand new 'Fade In Time' parameter in the Montage M operation manual.. It reads "Sets the time to reach the maximum amplitude for the Motion Sequence when Sync is set to Off".

This almost sounds like a straight way to achieve what I am asking, which would be hilarious. Can anyone confirm whether this effectively transits the SK value from its current position (whichever that may be) to the MS programed values, in the specified time? Appreciate it!

 
Posted : 07/11/2023 4:15 pm
Posts: 773
Prominent Member
 

Can anyone confirm whether this effectively transits the SK value from its current position (whichever that may be) to the MS programed values, in the specified time?

That may be one of those things you will have to test and experiment with yourself.

I just noticed there is a brand new 'Fade In Time' parameter in the Montage M operation manual.. It reads "Sets the time to reach the maximum amplitude for the Motion Sequence when Sync is set to Off".

That 'maximum amplitude' is what I don't yet understand. If Sync is Off it could be at any stage of any of the 16 steps. Those steps could be ramps - the default sequence sort of looks like sawtooths, or a series of right triangles that ramp up and go straight down.

So what does 'maximum amplitude' mean in that context? I haven't figured that out yet. There is an 'Amplitude' parameter for the lane as a whole but that is more of a 'clamp' on the maximum that the sequence can deliver.
So if 'Amplitude' is 64 the sequence output value can't go above 64 and it will only do that aif the sequence value is 127.

You will have to test to try to determine what 'max value' the doc means and even what 'time to reach' means given that a sequence might have 16 steps.

What happens if the time to reach exceeds a step length?

Is it possible that the 'maximum amplitude' might NEVER be reached? There must be some calculation involved but I sure don't know what it is.

It raises SO MANY questions - but so few answers of yet.

 
Posted : 07/11/2023 6:39 pm
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