Can you copy/paste the text into this forum, so folks that haven't signed up for IdeaScale can read it?

[quotePost id=115459]Yamaha has this next firmware update to prove themselves.
[/quotePost]
Why are you posting this under the Montage threads? In your Ideascale idea you said you had a MODX...the Montage blows the MODX out of the water when it comes to processing power, so some of the issues you experienced with the MODX having delays within the sequencer, etc., would most likely not even be issues on the Montage. You are comparing an economically designed/priced synth (MODX) that is half the price of a full flagship workstation like the Fantom that is twice the price..!? You are also comparing the MODX to the Motif that was (correct me if I'm wrong) was a full flagship synth and didn't have a half priced/watered down economically friendly version..!? You get what you pay for...

If you are waiting on the new firmware update in order for Yamaha to prove themselves via the Montage/MODX synths, I am pretty sure that you will be disappointed. They gave people an 'onboard' sequencer in the last major update, so I don't think they are going to be adding a second onboard sequencer in the Montage 4.0/MODX 3.0 update.
They may however add more functionality/features/fixes to the existing sequencer though!? ... if someone were to add an Ideascale idea(s) regarding enhancements/fixes for the existing sequencer, and enough people upvoted it, then that may be something they would add program into a future OS update. But fixing latency issues was easy...buy a Montage, which is a more appropriate comparison to the Fantom, as the MODX never was.

My best guess is that they are going to add something(s) big that people are asking for, such as a VA/VL synth engine perhaps, but no 2nd sequencer!

Another option besides getting a Montage (& not a MODX) is to install the free Cubase & Yamaha Steinberg USB driver on a computer, connect your Montage via USB cable, and use the best sequencer the world has to offer...DAW based sequencing! And Yamaha already gave this Full Super Sequencer to its customers for free! You also get an awesome sampling/editing app called 'SampleRobot Montage Edition' for free, which allows you to capture and create new libraries of other synths, instruments, VA synths, etc. and it's quite quick/easy to learn & use. I captured my favorite VST piano (Synthogy Ivory C7) via SampleRobot and added it as a new library in my Montage...something that can't be done on the Fantom, and would cost more on other keyboards that don't offer this software for free. My new custom library on the Montage plays & sounds exactly like the VST version does! And I don't like the sound of the 'at certain times' thin/kinda fake sounding V-Piano's that comes with the Fantom...IMHO So for me, the Fantom or the Kronos might a certain things/features/functionality that is better than the Montage, but the Montage can do other things/sounds better than it's competitors. It's all about doing 'research' on what is the right keyboard for the specific functionality you are looking to have, before you purchase the keyboard! I did 6-8 months of research/forum threads/etc. before deciding on the Montage8, and the first synth I actually tried out was the MODX8 (unplayable for pianos in my opinion)...not enough User memory, not enough processing, not enough polyphony, etc. It was the Korg forums that advised that I should go with the Montage over the Kronos, because of the sequencing I was planning to do (all 16 PARTs using all Engines)...the Korg uses lowest common denomenator polyphony whereas the Montage (& MODX to a lessor extent) use additive polyphony when utilizing multiple Engines at the same time.

Getting back to the Montage's sequencing, even though Cubase comes as a free super awesome sequencer, I use Pro Tools for all sequencing (basically the same as Cubase) and will never be able to look back & use an onboard sequencer, as there are just too many things I can do very quickly & easily on the DAW sequencer that would not be nearly as easy, quick, or in many cases, likely not even possible on the best 'onboard' sequencer from any Motif, Fantom, Kronos, or other keyboard.

In certain songs, where I am playing both hands on the Montage (& singing with a second 'headset' mic for vocoder, while keys are being pressed & pitch bended at specific times all via precise micro-edited sequencing), I have the Scenes (7 of them) changing at very specific times, while slowly turning the SuperKnob (then at a specific point turn it back fast), and also turning two different Assign Knobs at varying speeds in different directions precisely, while having the Aftertouch pressed down slowly, then increase the rate up to a very specific amount & finally let go back to 0 again, plus do specific custom pitch bends & mod wheel moves...All at the same time! I literally have a song that does exactly all of those things. But sequencing it all and pin-pointing the right amount of each knob turn, aftertouch, wheel/bend, Scene change, Vocoder keys/bend, etc. etc., is super easy, quick and precise on a DAW!
I'm actually doing a lot more than just that within the DAW sequencing too, and with a few of the PARTs I have specific Elements set with exact velocity ranges so that I can have a variety of different elements sounding at different times within a single PART, which is also super quick & easy & precise to edit/program on a DAW, which allows me to kinda have more PARTs/Sounds out of a single PART...

This isn't the specific Performance I am referring to above, but it is close in how much sequencing was done in a very short amount of time, and it uses all 16 PARTs. Half the PARTs are AWM2, half FM-X, with loads of polyphony & processing to spare, with only one PART using a custom sample (& only because I already had the sample .wav file and it was far quicker than programming the left/right panned touch tone phone sound via FM or a AWM2 preset)...all other AWM2 PARTs use Preset waveforms. This is all in just one sequenced Performance with me playing the main parts on the keys as well (no other keyboards, iPads, sequencers, etc), just the Montage ... Try doing this on a Fantom!? :p

https://soundcloud.com/dclowe/montage-justin-bieber-intentions

I'm quite certain I don't ever need any more OS updates on my Montage to be able to do anything & everything I want it to do! But if/when they do provide us with a new update, it's just a bonus to have virtually a new keyboard without having to buy a new hardware synth. 😉
.

OK I take it back Yamaha doesnt have to prove themselves. I will just go get something that works for me better. Done

c, you gotta click the link.

There's no way this isn't possible on just about every sufficiently multi-timbral instrument of the last 30 years. It's only when you hear it you fully understand the Dragos and his points of view.

I think it's fair to evaluate a keyboard as an individual and make purchasing decisions based on the feature set. I don't think demands are fair - but do understand frustration if you feel like your particular needs are not being sufficiently responded to. Recent history has provided the public more avenues to make their requests known. I don't mean Yamaha exclusively - but virtually any product. Some use these channels to vent - which is OK too. Respectfully. And C's always been on the cool side of the "be cool" request from Blake.

Also, I think less than a "no you're wrong" kind of back and forth - I take Darryl's feedback as more of a "check this out -- what I do". Which is cool. He's got a set of tools that work for him and it's cool to share some insights to others about the process and tools. It just gives food for thought - but maybe not the nourishment. That is, if C's workflow/style/sensibilities/etc are different. I mean we all sort of take away different things from reading anyone's posts and any sound clip. Which is cool.

Thanks for sharing, Darryl. I don't see it as a destination - necessarily - but it's cool that you're sharing what works for you.

Maybe some other keyboard with less (or more) CPU power or less (..) of this and that fit/speaks better to C. That's cool too. If we're in the business of either realizing a product - or delighting audiences - or both -- then we don't need any particularly rationale reason for not liking the equipment. If it's not "feeling" right (for whatever reason(s) ) then this may be impeding the flow of energy (creative, technical, emotional, etc) from the player through the equipment to the audience. I don't have a sense that C complains for fun.

Yes I do agree having 16 parts under midi control is powerful. I dont use nearly that. Montage sounds great - record ready. no doubt. Lets just leave this alone. Sorry I brought it up. I would delete the whole post but we cant anymore.

ok I was trying to figure out what it is that I want in a keyboard. I do my sequencing in the DAW because as Daryl said, its easy. That being said, I like the idea of just using the device itself with no computer. But that is not easier to get the results I want. On the Montage, you have to play it in skillfully. And get it right each time. Or its back to DAW. Can it do fills, drops and buildups? Perhaps but it burns a scene too.

Then I tried using a hardware sequencer to sequence the Montage but using the computer and DAW as a midi hub. You know I messed up one setting and spent an hour trying to figure out what was wrong. Finally when I got it working, the results weren't that good anyway. So I guess when the new Fantom came out (while not sounding superior) has functionality that appears to enable making the music on the instrument easily and getting away from the computer. OR maybe all these things are just different shaped computers 😀 The OP in ideascale (not me) felt that studio musicians were being overlooked. He was making the point that for Yamaha to compete with Roland they will need a new instrument. I think that may be the case. So this is my main gripe/concern.

The second issue I have with the Montage is, while it sounds great - It sounds incredible, is that for years I have struggled to make the sounds I want to make with certain modulation capabilities. Maybe something will change maybe it wont. But the Montage/Modx line really cant compete with software modulation capabilities. Im not talking about pitch bend here. I use Bitwig and have so much modulation there its crazy. But it doesnt offer access to sysex which I dont get anyhow so I still would only have a handful of midi parameters to modulate on the Montage using the DAW. Again then I grab a plugin.

The third issue Im having is just having better sounding oscillators. I understand Sample Robot is there, but when I tried it it did not go well and bringing in my samples will eat up my limited library space as it is. So what do I do? I just go back to my plugins because it is easier than trying to move something to the Montage. And its back to the DAW once again. The DAW is safe, the DAW is your friend.

So the bottom line in all of this is that while the Montage sounds "better" than the Fantom, Roland provided some in the box tools that are really helpful to get someone away from the computer. Again why do I want to get away from the computer from time time? I dont know really. Maybe I feel more connected to the music or it feels more organic raw somehow? Maybe I really just want to do eurorack instead 😀

What's wanted is a Dynabook.

This is a term/named coined by Alan Kay, the first to articulate Object Oriented Programming, and the man whom Steve Jobs utilised to realise what Xeroc Parc had been working on, and how that could then became the Lisa, Mac and then Windows.

Dynabook means a self contained, fully self capable, portable computing device. Alan Kay is on record, multiple times, critiquing the iPad for not becoming this, as it's unable to make apps for itself.

The Montage/MODX fall down for the same reasons, they cannot create their own content, for themselves, of themselves, by themselves.

At this point, you can't even save and share your own presets for effects settings!

Nor is there a reverse link to Patterns associated with any given Performance.

This is the kind of low hanging fruit that it not being done yet gives a great insight into Yamaha's views on these products.

And likely why you can't sample, nor can you create arpeggios (to the capacity of the arp engine in the device), nor make Auditions, nor edit note events in the "sequencer" for these and songs you may want to export, as nothing can be corrected when we mere mortals make mistakes in recording in the archaic means to do so as they currently exist in these devices. A piano roll isn't necessary, just a means to see, select and edit note and controller events, in any way that works for the limited processing of these devices. Step Sequencer, Tracker or TR style editor... doesn't matter what, just something that understands that not all players are perfect with their inputs, and some creativity is best done via digital input.

Having gotten to the touchscreen phase of computing in a keyboard, it's high time someone figured out how to package current level Akai MPC functionality into a keyboard with a touchscreen.

At this rate, it's probably going to be Akai, by way of merely adding a keyboard to one of their MPC models. If they do this under the Alesis label (which I think their parent company also owns) and include some lush actual analogue synthesis, and use a premium keybed, they'll deserve every sale they get from this combination.

For whatever reasons, everyone else has dropped the ball on this for long enough that Akai have had time to plan, create, release and enjoy significant success with their MPC line, and now have the opportunity to add a keyboard and any kinds of synthesis that might help them sell this pairing. It could have been the other way around, wherein Korg, Roland, Yamaha or Kurzweil etc could have created MPC like functionality in a keyboard, and then released a standalone unit with pads for those not needing a keyboard.

If both Akai and the established players in the keyboard market take any longer figuring this out, I think ASM's parent company might get to the market first. Worse, for the incumbents, if ASM partners with Akai by providing their very good keyboard and synthesis, the combination might sweep the market for an all-in-one and lay the foundation for the next decade of device sales success.

Great discussion here guys!
Not everyone is going to have the same requirements or wants/needs as I do. Some people prefer to have multiple Synths/Workstations, &/or connect their Synth to apps/utils on their iPads or other devices, where as my personal requirements are based on simplicity of having just one keyboard only that does everything, without having to add anything else except to connect to a DAW for sequencing/sampling.
I think it's great to figure out what it is you want/need, do the research, discuss on forums here and everywhere, including Roland, Korg and other forums, and try them out in the stores if you can. I was a bit surprised when the Korg forums made a difficult decision easy for me by recommending the Montage over the Kronos, because of my polyphony/engine use requirements.

Looking back, had I never used a DAW for VST instrument sequencing prior to purchasing the Montage, and thus potentially may have wanted a good 'onboard' sequencer, then the Montage would have been less attractive (although the Fantom didn't come out until after I bought the Montage).

@Jason

Maybe some other keyboard with less (or more) CPU power or less (..) of this and that fit/speaks better to C. That's cool too. If we're in the business of either realizing a product - or delighting audiences - or both -- then we don't need any particularly rationale reason for not liking the equipment. If it's not "feeling" right (for whatever reason(s) ) then this may be impeding the flow of energy (creative, technical, emotional, etc) from the player through the equipment to the audience.

Totally agree and love the way you phrased this about feeling right & the flow of energy 😉

@c

Yes I do agree having 16 parts under midi control is powerful.

What I think would be even more powerful is if we could have all 16 PARTs under KBD CTRL, but I've come to realize that is never going to happen on the Montage...it's too complex of an ask. However I did post an idea on Ideascale that I think is far less complex and could be possible for them to program in a reasonable time, which would give better control over the 8 PARTs that we do have under KBD CTRL...basically adding the ability to have Elements On/Off within Scenes, so that (for example) in Scene1 you could have only Elements 1-4 On for PART1, and in Scene2 it would change to having only Elements 5-8 On in PART1. Within 1 or 2 PARTs the amount of additional possible combinations would far exceed the number of Scene buttons, and essentially (for the most part) allow us to control many more Waveforms/Sounds than we currently can...

Roland provided some in the box tools that are really helpful to get someone away from the computer. Again why do I want to get away from the computer from time time? I dont know really. Maybe I feel more connected to the music or it feels more organic raw somehow? Maybe I really just want to do eurorack instead

I can totally see how this could be attractive, as I love keeping things simple & all-in-one.
Roland did an awesome job at designing their new flagship workstation and appear to have made it easy to do more things on the keyboard itself, without the need for a computer!

@Bill

Seems to be that Yamaha tries to provide different products for different types of users.
If I were doing marketing research I would want to gather as much info as I could about how the product is being used now and what issues people are having with it.
Can some of you lay out your actual requirements for 'on stage performance'? For a typical gig

That's where I basically started 6-8 months before going with the Montage. Of course the Fantom didn't exist at that time.
It's good to figure out requirements for 'on-stage', as well as for 'at home/studio' ... It depends also on whether the Synth is going to be for both or just 'one or the other'.

@Andrew

At this point, you can't even save and share your own presets for effects settings!
...This is the kind of low hanging fruit...

This is a perfect ideascale idea! I would totally up vote it, and it seems like something Yamaha would really give consideration to, as it may not take that much programming time/effort.
I can't tell you how many times I wish that I've either took a picture with the camera on my phone or wrote down the effects settings, so that I could add the same settings in another PART &/or Performance.
It would be extremely useful to be able to save custom effects settings within User Memory (or where ever makes the most sense), so that I can find them in the dropdown for a specific effect that I use on multiple different PARTs/Performances.

I'd still like to see the text of the review posted in this thread, so that everyone can read it, and directly reference its points.

[quotePost id=115708]I'd still like to see the text of the review posted in this thread, so that everyone can read it, and directly reference its points.[/quotePost]

Here is the text from the Ideascale link above...
---------------

(Title) Make a New keyboard overall
(Posted by: matthew summers)
(Status: Reserve)

At one time I used to think Yamaha was the dominating keyboard with the motif for rap producers. I even went as far as purchasing MODX over the FANTOM 2019 awhile back. It seems you guys have forgot about your customer and you guys left us in the dust. I can't even change the sound In the category area without the sequencer delaying because it doesn't have enough RAM. And I can't even stop the sequencer or if I do it takes me back to the sequencer area as opposed to keeping me into the category area and what I'm getting at your keyboard cannot do basic functions and I regret buying it and that is why I sold the MODX for the FANTOM. Now that I have the new Roland I don't know how you'll ever compete with this unless you come up with a brand new keyboard. The motif is an always will reign supreme back in the day but honestly this is a step back and I'm just writing you guys this because I have no clue who is developing your product or who's taking the lead because obviously they don't have the mind of the studio producer in thought. I mean I already have 8000 presets in my new Roland and the Yamaha gives me about 1400. I just used to be a super Yamaha fan but it was clear that the studio producer was left in the dust and I guess this keyboard obviously is not meant for somebody like me but all in all there's nothing you could do to update this to make it better so that's why I'm suggesting a whole brand new keyboard and I thought you guys read this anyway because it's all automatically generated. I can't even change or exit certain views and the keyboard without the whole pattern changing on me you literally have to save every time you make an edit because for some reason your whole pattern changes And what you created now is a blank slate. And the UI is so slow

As a new Yamaha user (first was the Montage, owned briefly in another country, sold then got a MODX a couple of years later) the lack of flow to usage was shocking. It's worse than zero consideration for flow as there are a lot of what's known as "dark patterns" that are net negatives to common usage activities. This is more shocking if earlier Yamaha products weren't this way.

It's as if it's been designed by someone that's never used any product created by anyone else, and consideration strongly given to the benefit/ease of the programmers- to minimise their workload as much as possible.

[quotePost id=115746]

It's worse than zero consideration for flow

I think you got it right when you say 'flow'.
In general I've found that navigating your way around isn't very easy or intuitive.
Once you are at point A it isn't always easy to know what other places you can visit without losing the ability to return to point A.
[/quotePost]
I would agree that the Montage is not the most intuitive Synth to navigate around or learn. It's pretty decent though once you do learn it, but it takes a while ... there's just so much it can do, that I haven't had a chance to try it all yet. And for certain things I don't do that often, I keep notes saved so that I don't have to re-research & figure out how to do them again.
However, I've heard similar things from others who own or owned a Kronos...

In my software background that type of 'navigation' design issue was often due to having to always be backward compatible with previous releases. Eventually you got to the point where you just had to redesign things from scratch in a more modular fashion.

I think you just hit the nail on the head!!
This makes the most sense as to why the Montage is not the most intuitive to learn or navigate. I think many people (especially current/previous Motif owners) would prefer to have the backwards compatibility with the Motif lines, and not a complete redesign ... getting/buying additional sounds and libraries is easier this way because there are all these vendors you can buy them from, as well as the John Melas utilities, as well as the free libraries that Yamaha provide, etc.
They actually kind of already have a completely redesigned Workstation and called it the Genos, but that's a completely different team/division of the organization that the Genos is developed under, so I'm not entirely sure. Although on second thought that actually does make sense that they have a new team designing the new redesigned Workstation (Genos), and keep the Motif engineers/division of the company working on the Motif compatible Synths (Montage/MODX).

For me it really gets back to how to make the choice between A) building a monolithic device that can do it all in the instrument or B) using multiple devices that can each do its part well.

Personally I like option A) as I just want 'one' self contained Synth that can do it all both in the Studio & Live, whereby all the functionality, MIDI interconnectivity/control, etc., is integrated as it currently is in the Montage. If that means I have to give up ease of flow, ease of navigation and live with a Synth that is less intuitive to learn, then so be it! I wouldn't want to buy two or three Synths in order to do the same thing, which would need to be connected via MIDI cables (& deal with configuring them all to interconnect & work properly). But that's just my preference...

In a sense they're kind of doing that to a certain extent anyway with the CP & YC series, reface synths, etc., but they don't really have the programming capabilities, libraries, etc., like the Montage/MODX do.

To help fix/improve these issues with the Montage/MODX, maybe Yamaha could do the following:
(1) Add in a 'Wizard' button or something to the touch screen interface as an option that people could use that guides them through various things!?
(2) Additionally, maybe they could add in a 'Back or Undo' button to the touch screen interface, that gets you back to the previous screens that you were in & undo something that you may wish to reverse!? (I'd be curious to know if they might already have this functionality on the Montage via a button/hotkey sequence or shortcut, that acts as a Back/Undo button..!?)

... there's got to be some kind of solution(s) without having to do a complete redesign and lose backward compatibility ...

.

If workflow is any kind of consideration for any of the posters in this thread, and you're wondering what it might look like in a synth that's specifically designed to aid the flow of sound creation such that it's joyous, I can't strongly enough recommend spending some time with Vital Synth, a free (with premium options of more presets) VST/AU plugin (and CLAP) that's simply mind-blowing in how well it assists flow and informative/informed sound design.

Though it doesn't help reduce the length of my sentences.

Serum was good, in this flow/reveal sense. Vital is very good!

For anyone working at Yamaha, I strongly recommend learning UI/UX from this synth. Please! It's an absolute masterclass in purposeful, discoverable, flow enhancing, self explanatory UI and UX:

https://vital.audio