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USB Audio only works when I uninstall Steinberg Driver

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Greetings everyone. I hope you are all well.

I purchased my Montage 8 a month ago; I'm also pretty inexperienced with DAWs. (I have a lot more experience with keyboards in general going back to the early '80's.)
After installing the latest versions of both the Montage and the Steinberg Driver, I was really frustrated at not being able to get my Mac, Cubase, Garageband, etc... to recognize the Montage. Through lots of experimenting, I realized that if I uninstalled the Steinberg Driver, everything seems to work correctly. I see another user named Freddie, who also is using a Mac with Catalina, had a similar experience:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/new-montage-cannot-use-as-sound-card-for-daws

I have Focusrite Control installed for use with a Scarlett 2i2 3rd gen. (24-bit/192kHz converters), while the Montage has a Sampling Frequency of 44.1kHz.

Question 1: If things seem to be working, should I "leave well-enough alone" or I am missing something by not having the Steinberg Driver installed?
Question 2: For simple piano solo, "tape recorder" audio recordings into Cubase, am I likely to get better quality audio from the Montage USB direct into Mac/Cubase or by using the analog audio outs (TRS cables) into the Focusrite Scarlett and then into Cubase?

Many thanks for your knowledge and expertise!
- Jason

 
Posted : 05/06/2020 4:49 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

The driver you want is “Yamaha Steinberg USB version 2.0.3 for Mac”
This turns the MONTAGE into an audio/MIDI interface for your computer. 24-bit/44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz, or 192kHz
32-in/6-out @ 44.1
8-in/6-out @ variable 44.1 — 192kHz

AUDIO I/O
16 Stereo/44.1kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is a maximum 32 channels (16 stereo channels) at a sampling frequency of 44.1 kHz.
4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz: Audio data sending capability for the instrument is a maximum 8 channels (4 stereo channels) for a sampling frequency of 44.1 kHz to 192 kHz.

NOTE: When “4 Stereo/44.1-192kHz” is selected, available frequencies are only 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz.

Question 1: If things seem to be working, should I "leave well-enough alone" or I am missing something by not having the Steinberg Driver installed?

You’d be missing out on the multiple bus USB Audio Out capability (low latency Driver).

Question 2: For simple piano solo, "tape recorder" audio recordings into Cubase, am I likely to get better quality audio from the Montage USB direct into Mac/Cubase or by using the analog audio outs (TRS cables) into the Focusrite Scarlett and then into Cubase?

You have everything you need to make that comparison.

Let us know your finding! Enjoy.

 
Posted : 05/06/2020 7:38 pm
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Thank you, Bad Mister, for your quick reply! (Btw, You were very helpful to me 7-8 years ago when I had a difficult question about my S70-XS. Thank you.)

>The driver you want is “Yamaha Steinberg USB version 2.0.3 for Mac”

Yes, that is the driver I have been installing and then uninstalling in my experiments:
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/yamaha_steinberg_usb_driver_for_mac.html

When I first watched your Mastering MONTAGE: Cubase Setup (Part 1) video, I noticed three minutes in that when I click VST Audio System, the ASIO driver was not showing MONTAGE. When I delete the Steinberg USB driver, Montage correctly shows up under the ASIO driver. When I click on it, I can see all 32 Audio Inputs and the 6 outputs, just like you show us in your video. It looks and sounds like things are working properly, which is what brought me to my Question #1. I'm wondering if perhaps the Steinberg driver is included with Cubase 10.5? I'm new to this, but I seem to remember that the Steinberg driver worked correctly with Garageband before I installed Cubase. I would try deleting and reinstalling Cubase, but it was kind of a pain to install.

Regarding my second question, thank you for reminding me that the Montage Audio Interface is variable. I switched it to run with fewer channels with higher quality and did some comparisons. My results were that recording directly with the Montage USB Audio Interface was significantly better! ...although it was quieter, since I wasn't getting the gain of the Focusrite. I turned the performance level up to 127, using the method you described in your "Mastering MONTAGE: Audio Rec on DAW, Part 1" article. It sounds good, although still not as loud as I would like. Where would be the next ideal place to give the recordings some more volume?

Thanks again for your sharing your expertise. I really appreciate it!
- Jason Fry

 
Posted : 06/06/2020 3:53 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

When I first watched your Mastering MONTAGE: Cubase Setup (Part 1) video, I noticed three minutes in that when I click VST Audio System, the ASIO driver was not showing MONTAGE. When I delete the Steinberg USB driver, Montage correctly shows up under the ASIO driver. When I click on it, I can see all 32 Audio Inputs and the 6 outputs, just like you show us in your video. It looks and sounds like things are working properly, which is what brought me to my Question #1. I'm wondering if perhaps the Steinberg driver is included with Cubase 10.5? I'm new to this, but I seem to remember that the Steinberg driver worked correctly with Garageband before I installed Cubase. I would try deleting and reinstalling Cubase, but it was kind of a pain to install.

It is unclear to me how you are Deleting the Driver and yet it shows MONTAGE. Showing MONTAGE is a result of it using the Driver. What makes you think you have deleted the Driver?

Go to System Preference > Sound
The MONTAGE should appear as an Input and Output device...
You make individual adjustments within the application (DAW) that uses it.

Regarding my second question, thank you for reminding me that the Montage Audio Interface is variable. I switched it to run with fewer channels with higher quality and did some comparisons. My results were that recording directly with the Montage USB Audio Interface was significantly better! ...although it was quieter, since I wasn't getting the gain of the Focusrite. I turned the performance level up to 127, using the method you described in your "Mastering MONTAGE: Audio Rec on DAW, Part 1" article. It sounds good, although still not as loud as I would like. Where would be the next ideal place to give the recordings some more volume?

When recording data Out to a DAW via USB you can manage the Output Gain to the USB bus.

You are saying “Volume“, but we know you are referring to “Gain” which is Record Level.

Volume is subjective and analog and it requires speakers of some sort. Volume is air molecules banging into each other. Volume is always set to taste. Volume in the MONTAGE is typically shown in units 0-127 (subjective, non-scientific) the higher the number the louder it is...

Gain, while related, is objective/scientific and in this case, Digital, and although increasing it can produce more Volume, it is totally separate with separate controls. Gain is measured in your DAW by meters. Gain is set by looking at a Meter. Gain can happen even when your speakers are turned down or are completely Off. Gain does not move air molecules, it is a measurement of signal strength. It is Record Level. Gain, in the MONTAGE is shown as an increase (+) or decrease (-) measured in dB. (scientific measurement)

This is more than just semantics. Particularly, when you are looking for where to increase your record signal (gain). Yes, increasing the record gain will definitely increase the Volume, but only if you connect the analog outputs.

Here’s what to know and where you can increase and influence both Record Gain and Output Volume:
[UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Audio I/O” > here you can set the “USB Main L/R Output Gain” and the “USB 1-30 Output Gain”
Settings: -6dB, +0dB, +6dB, +12dB

Why the Difference between Volume and Record Level (Gain) is Critical
When playing your MONTAGE, each Part is usually mixed to work as playable programs. For example, say you create a MONTAGE Performance layer with acoustic piano and strings. You will naturally set the relative Volumes so that you get just the right amount of Strings behind the Piano — this balance is critical for you to play it and feel comfortable creating within this multi-Part sound.

However, when you get ready to render this to your DAW as audio, you route the piano Parts to USB 1/2, and you route the string Parts to USB 3/4. First thing you notice is the strings are significant lower on your record Meters (and therefore, lower in Volume). This is where you attempt to increase the Volume parameter to make it louder, but you when you played it you pre-mixed it to work as a layer. You may not have enough Volume parameter to reach the Record Level you want to see on your Meter...

Of course, now it is lower in output Gain. Increasing the USB 1-30 Output Gain increases both the piano and the strings — so you still can’t make the strings as full as the piano... what to do?

Each MONTAGE Part has its Oscillators (AWM2 Elements; FM-X Operators), the generated tone is fed to a 3-band EQ before going through the Insertion Effects block, then the signal goes through the 2-band EQ before heading to the Assignable Output or to the System Effects. On the screen with the 2-band EQ is your OUTPUT LEVEL parameter.

When recording Audio to a DAW, you are seeking to maximize record levels (initially). When you create the program you pre-mixed the piano/string balance. Now we want to undo that balance and record each contributor separately, maximizing the record level of each (then later, at Mixdown you re-establish the subjective balance between Piano and Strings.

Press [EDIT]
Press [PART SELECT] select the Part you wish to adjust
Touch “Effect” > EQ > on the EQ page select the “2-Band EQ”
In the lower right corner is this Part’s individual OUTPUT LEVEL
Settings: -12dB ~ +12dB

The dB signifies you are directly affecting the Gain for this Part (scientific).

Use this OUTPUT LEVEL when making adjustments to sounds that need more record level. Make the adjustment while monitoring the Audio Track’s Input Meter. This is not set to taste... set this by the Meter.

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 06/06/2020 4:39 pm
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Thank you for your fast and nuanced answer regarding gain. It helps a lot, and I copied it for future reference.

> It is unclear to me how you are Deleting the Driver and yet it shows MONTAGE. Showing MONTAGE is a result of it using the Driver. What makes you think you have deleted the Driver?

Yes, this is what prompted my question; it appears to be working even though I have uninstalled it. When I say that I have deleted/uninstalled it... When I download it, it downloads an uninstaller along with the folders, and it also produces a red Steinberg icon. To uninstalled it, I run the uninstaller, which removes the red icon, etc. Additionally, in Mac Finder, I run a search for Steinberg, if I find anything, I would delete that too. When I do so, MONTAGE becomes available under System Preference > Sound... as well as in Cubase and Garageband. When I again download the Steinberg Driver, and get it's folders along with the red Steinberg icon, the MONTAGE again becomes unavailable.

I just found something though, which is surely part of an answer. I did a Finder Search for Steinberg. It pulled up three folders, which appear to be empty (I can't see anything when I open them), however I found an icon that didn't delete and which wouldn't go into the trash called YamahaSteinberg USBAudio.kext which is 911,204 bytes (954 KB on disk) in size. It's Creation/Modified date is Jan. 8, months before I got the Montage. It looks different from the Steinberg icon that downloaded from the normal link; It looks like a white 4x4 Lego block. I don't know if I should try to come up with some way to delete this or leave things alone.

Thanks again for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Regards,
- Jason Fry

 
Posted : 06/06/2020 8:12 pm
Posts: 0
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i had this issue too, i just reinstalled the camchat software and it works fine 😀

 
Posted : 04/07/2020 7:08 pm
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