A commercial sound was one that was was sold and has a limited use license (only allowed to be used by the user who purchased the sound). The sound should have copyright notices.

The film and software industry have the same concept. I'm sure there are videos your family will make of a trip and email to you with no requirement to limit you to distribute the video or compensate them for their time of producing the video. This would be regarded as "public domain" and "royalty free". However, if you purchase a DVD of "Star Wars" - you are expected not to make copies to sell to other people or even give away freely (distribute). Doing so would be a violation of the terms of use and there are usually warnings/disclaimers somewhere on the packaging or within the movie contents themselves.

Software - the same deal. There is "public domain" software which can also be labeled as "freeware". An example of this would be if you programmed your own utility to convert .WAV or .AIFF files into Yamaha-Montage waveforms. Assuming you did this entirely on your own without using other code from somewhere else - you could distribute this program in the public domain expecting no compensation for it - and allowing anyone to use the program under any circumstances or distribute it in any way they feel fit. There are other levels of non-commercial software which would prevent either modification, force not deleting the credits (readme/etc files), forcing not to resell, etc. These different levels actually exist for just about anything that could be sold or distributed.

If there's a sound library you find or someone "gives" you a sound library - if you independently look up the name and find some company is charging money for the same thing - then you've "stumbled" upon a commercial sound library and should strongly reconsider your "ownership" without paying what is being asked for such ownership.

It may not always be easy to sort out what's commercial and what isn't given just a file. However, if you obtain free content from a yamaha.com (or yamaha owned domain) - you should be fine. Moessieurs should also be a safe place. Any of the top commercial distributors of their own sound libraries - should they provide their own free content - would be a safe place to get such material. Straying too far from these sources carries with it some risk. If a user is able to describe all recording equipment - shows pictures of the recording process - or otherwise can demonstrate they personally generated the content and are releasing the content to the public domain - then this would have some risk - but is probably OK given there is enough "evidence" to conclude they indeed did wholly generate all of the content without "borrowing".

The safest bet is to only load user X7B files or libraries/user-files from legitimate purchases or libraries/user-files (for free) from trusted commercial sources who distribute their own demos or free-use content.

Regarding "original waveforms" - not sure exactly what you mean. I'll just make an assumption and perhaps be wrong. Montage has presets. There's "no way" to get these presets out of the Montage. They're stuck inside without a method of distributing the preset samples. When you make a performance based off of an internal preset and distribute that performance - there's only going to be a "link" to the data (samples) and not the data itself. Therefore, you're safe distributing X7B or X7U or X7L files that only reference internal presets.

The Bosendorfer set is grey area to me. It is given away for free as a promotional item. The PDF and other links do not have licensing details that I can find. I still personally treat this as if there is a license only because there is not a license or documentation stating it is free to distribute. This is just taking a more hard-lined stance until Yamaha clarifies if these waveforms can be included in distributed files. It's difficult to regulate distribution if you distribute anything other than X7B files since commercial waveforms can "sneak into" a file when you are intending to distribute the file for some other use.

Hello Jason - thank you for the detailed answer. However, it does not solve my issue. I strongly suspect that the reason we users are not willing to share one another's creations is because of all this gobbledegook surrounding them. How on Earth does one 'prove' total originality in everything? It's not possible - and frankly, who cares anyway? So far as I'm concerned, the sound I start with is unsatisfactory and needs work to correct it or improve it, so I put time and effort into doing that. In my view, that makes it 'my' sound. If someone else thinks it's rubbish and does more work on it, that's fine by me - that makes it his (or her) sound, but I still have mine. Everyone is different, with different likes and dislikes, and these pettifogging rules only serve to stultify creative communication - as they appear to be doing.

Jason,

As you mentioned in regard to the Bosendorfer "promotion" the deal was that people had to provide their Montage serial number, register etc in order to receive it.
However, it was on this very website that a link was provided to bypass that and download direct!!
I wonder how many people downloaded it ...just in case I get a Montage in the future when the price drops 😮

As you also stated there is the case for voices, performances etc for all brands and models of keyboard, where individuals have gone to a great deal of trouble to create.
They usually make them freely available for download, however I'm sure they would be really pissed off if others claimed ownership or worse sold them as some part of collection.
I suppose it depends on each person's moral compass.

This could have been posted in the Sharing Performances thread originally started by Dave.
The following is straight from a Facebook website -

We create & design and SHARE new sounds & sound sets libraries for all yamaha motif - mox - montage synthesizers series / and in all sound formats , We convert all other top synths sound patches to yamaha synths sound formats ...

Registration for -DOWNLOAD LINKS- sound sets libraries on wetransfer.com . Email to motifxsxf@gmail.com with your facebook account name ..!! for more info ...

Now a recent post with a txt file from the website -

Yamaha Montage. -X7L-X7A-X7U-X7B- Sound sets libraies collection Index -----------------------------------
EDM.Mega Montage
ENIGMA Montage
MULTI CULTURE Montage
Cosmic Ambient Epic Pads
Orchestra Strings
AG pianoEXP.
Missing Piano's Yamaha Montage X7L sound set
Synthesizer Pop Performances
Top Stage Synths Montage X7L
Natve American. MONTAGE- X7L
ABCD.Cover bands instruments.X7L
EFGH.Cover bands instruments.X7L
MONTAGE Dance Pro.X7L
MONTAGE Xtasyn.X7L
Blue Man Group MONTAGE.X7L
LiveInstruments.X7L
LiveOrgan.X7L
NatureOfChill.X7L
OrganSession.X7L
Phatanalog.1.X7L
Phatanalog.2.X7L

Those last nine are certainly commercial products.
All but the Blue Man Group (available from Yamaha Musicsoft) are the current and full Montage soundsets from EasySounds.

Therefore could it reasonably be expected that these are available for sharing (in accordance with the Group description) and if registered for the download links.
However, I have also heard that you must share a suitable file first....
I'll leave forum members to draw their own conclusion

I also just saw that the Montage Bosendorfer soundset is selling for $99.99 on Yamaha MusicSoft!!
Haven't checked if that link is still up as per my previous post.

Hello James - this is what is so confusing! How can anybody "own" a sound? The odds against any one newly created sound being a precise replica of another existing one are astronomical! Too many variables. If you like something enough to pay for it - so be it. In very general terms, if I particularly like a sound, I'll try to reproduce it - it's what Montage was designed to do - but if I offer my effort for sharing, is that immoral? If I found I could even sell it - would that be criminal? This whole area is hedged about with impossible rules that stifle free interchange of ideas.

WELL WELL WELL here we go AGAIN !! that list is my COMPLETE collection YAMAHA MONTAGE SOUND SETS INDEX .. !!! and That includes commercial and also NON commercial Montage sets,, So that is NOT meaning that also these COMMERCIAL sound sets are for DOWNLOAD . available.. !! SO who says that it can be download is AGAIN like many others judge on TOALLY WRONG WRONG WRONG Mister James . !!!

Hi to be clear a commercial content for sound bank is a sound bank sale or offer as exclusive with a product you buy (like Bösendorfer with Montage).

You're not allowed to share even for free a sound bank made by a sound designer coming from this kind of product.
You cannot also just edit few parameters like reverb send, pan and "say" it's now my work, i can share it.

For example, i work with organimation from Ksounds on my Montage, this sound bank do not use external waveform but internal waveforms, but Keven as made a big work of editing for this sound bank he sale.
I cannot share a performance made on my Montage even for free with other users even in Montage Connect file format with a part from Organimation.
That's why when i share a performance on Moessieurs, i always change a part from commercial sound bank when i use it for my band by a preset part.
I can edit a preset part, to be closed as possible of course, that's what i done and like this your learn a lot about programming your Montage 😉

I have also heard that you must share a suitable file first... AGAIN AGAIN WRONG WRONG WRONG seems you guys believe all that you heared ?? First go to www.google.com and read for a change wat the word SHARE -SHARE-SHARE means . !!!
Nobody MUST SHARE !! >> It is sure not meaning DOWNLOAD !! so when people Sign in on SHARE Facebook groups why do they ALL thing that SHARE is a one way topic ?? BTW Why would others SHARE there hardwork creations on people who only out for selfish interest and who are not even make any music with sotandard sounds presets or and say not even know how ???? to make any music at all !!.. sort of also on this Yamaha Synth forum more then 1500 on Pro synthesizer [ music production ] owners - users -??Players-?? But not any of a single sound or any Music creations to spot to acan hear wat the so called Professional musicians sound engineers music producers have made on the Multi thousend $$ Yamaha Montage !! Sure we know also why >> Because all worry to puplish any for maybe others get a idea of wat a other have created . WRIGHT !! yes wright So then why do want / hunt / all social media platforums groups looking for to can DOWNLOAD others sounds or even complete multiple hardwork sound sets libraries creations ?? so we do must have make a sort of simple rule to beware the many hypocrite dudes . and that ofcourse would give us a REPUTATION >> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4LfqgX2tA&list=PL2SwSLjBVGA4X0-bPvwg3bZoSagHfxQVN&index=19

As Joel mentions, there is a class of commercial sound sets that only modify settings. They do not offer new waveforms. There are organ, guitar, and other sets available that reflect this style of programming. In this case, an X7B would transfer all of that work - so using X7B doesn't prevent you from sharing copyright/commercial material - it only helps you to avoid making the mistake of including anything other than you intend since an X7B is only one performance (and you will know, yourself, if you authored without "borrowing" anything commercial the performance you are sharing).

As far as the importance of this - or who cares: there are plenty of people who care. Most directly, the authors of the content who both have to fund equipment and fees (recording, computer, advertisement, employees in some cases) to keep producing quality content. They also have family to feed, put through school, living expenses, etc. and depend on the principle that hard work leads to compensation. This is the part of the FBI warning in movies which states copyright infringement is not a victim-less crime. Consumers who follow both the ethical boundaries and laws also care as product prices drift upwards to "insure" losses due to piracy. Also, these proper-use consumers benefit from the pride of fueling further development with their purchase. Those who do not follow the laws may either have some weight on their conscience ("may") or may suffer legal consequences for their actions.

If you, from the ground-up, generate a new user performance and distribute that same performance as an X7B - then you know there is no commercial component. That is very simple without any ambiguity.

The reason why users do not share their work can vary. Maybe being concerned they'd share something they are not supposed to is a component - but likely a very small component. A bulk of the programming I do on the keyboard is for my professional success ("job") and so that work I am not willing to just give away. I believe other users share this sentiment. I do freely give away the concepts/tricks/steps I use in order to develop this content. I also will occasionally work on someone else's content and modify it and freely share that work.

Regarding the "proof" part. In the role of sharing your own personal ground-up performances, there is no need to prove anything. You have, hopefully, already ensured what you are sharing is wholly your own creation. It is in the role of receiving free content that you must prove to yourself that the content is non-commercial. It's like if someone is at a club giving away their own CDs to promote their band - you can be pretty sure the proof is already there that the content you are receiving is being distributed legitimately by the original content creators. However, at a gas station someone selling recent DVD releases out of a suitcase and the DVDs have no artwork on the front - you can be pretty sure the burden of proof has not been met for you, as a consumer, to ensure the content is being legitimately distributed. This is where the advice to stick with trusted sales channels, as a consumer safeguard, comes into play. For myself, I would shy away from "gas stations" as sources for Montage content.

I'm glad there is some discussion about this topic as it is always good to be an educated consumer as well as educated provider (in the role of sharing content).

Hello Jason - a powerful and well reasoned argument! I do not advocate 'piracy' in any form - that is outright theft. My viewpoint is that I have already bought the sounds as well as the Montage, and so have paid my full whack towards all those people who originated those sounds. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in just copying those sounds and distributing them, or even trying to sell them without a royalty element.(theft again). But if I find those sounds lacking, and change them to suit me (sometimes out of all recognition as one thing leads to another), then I don't see why I shouldn't share those results (acknowledgement where known, by all means). There are some Pfs where I think I've spent more time and effort on it than the original programmer did! Some people will prefer the original version, others will prefer mine. But fear of consequences should never prevent the free interchange of honest ideas.

On original sounds, I am sure that Yamaha (for example) maintain their sound department in order to sell their synths, and all the originators are well catered for within that umbrella, so I have no fears of people starving in the streets.

On waveforms, are they not subject to the same argument? Someone has to do the sampling and recording etc:, so I shouldn't even start with a waveform, but go back to taking the original samples. It gets ridiculous.

Then there's emulation, whereby one sets out to replicate a sound, and arrives at a very similar sound by a totally different route. Where does that stand in the Great Scheme of Things? Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so that would please me!

Piracy is wrong - but common sense must prevail, so that legal jargon and technicalities don't obscure the goal - which is better music.

Through discussion, now you can tell the difference:

1) When adding to your Montage content, pay for commercial libraries
2) When distributing, distribute your own creations containing no commercial content
3) Anything else you distribute you have the burden of ensuring it is public domain (FM-X X7B easiest to deal with ... X7A most difficult to deal with)

Hello Jason - Oh dear! We are back at exactly where we started. It is impossible for ordinary blokes like me to ever share any ideas with anybody for fear of infringing somebody else's 'rights'. A totally ludicrous situation which I find incomprehensible (apart from the outright theft angle). My logic is that any sounds produced by Yamaha (for example) are public domain because their sound engineers have been paid by Yamaha to produce those sounds, and Yamaha have been paid by the Public to use them. No-one loses anything - who is going to be dumb enough to buy stolen sounds which can only be used on a Montage, when they already have them? What's happened to common sense?

Here's how you do it:

1) [CATEGORY SEARCH] (HOME)
2) Set the "Bank" to Preset
3) Pick ANY performance including init drums, init AWM2, init FM-X
4) Change any parameter - or no parameters
5) Save as an X7B using Montage Connect (any preset performance you've modified)

There will be absolutely no commercial information in the X7B because you started with a preset. This is the "normal" way to generate your own content. Either starting with a preset and tweaking it anything from subtly to wildly or building "from the ground up" using an "init" performance. Even though this doesn't represent everything you could legitimately do - it's still a very large "playground" to foster your creativity and keeps things simple.

The above "guide" is exactly what was outlined here:

Montage has presets. There's "no way" to get these presets out of the Montage. They're stuck inside without a method of distributing the preset samples. When you make a performance based off of an internal preset and distribute that performance - there's only going to be a "link" to the data (samples) and not the data itself. Therefore, you're safe distributing X7B (... that begins as any of the) internal presets.

Since the free content from Moessieurs site has also been screened for you, any of that content can also be a starting point rather than internal presets. Although I still would not, for now, recommend your doing this. Hope this doesn't stifle your creativity too much to stick with presets - but the advice is given in order to balance your concerns of playing by the rules vs. the superlatives you currently use of how difficult it is to accomplish.

Why make it more difficult than it needs to be? Just start with a preset and distribute to your heart's content. Shy away from passing on anything else because a) It's easier (not ludicrous) to avoid trying to figure out if anything you receive legitimately public domain 2) It's harder (not impossible) to filter out mixing in unintended content if you're distributing a library file (for example) which has waveforms and you have a mix of commercial and non-commercial material - and don't want to sort through the steps to more surgically release what you intend.

This is advice for you in order to minimize having to do anything you feel is impossible or ludicrous.