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Volume - another basic qiestion

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Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Hello everyone - I've been happily banging away at categorising Pfs and making minor changes here and there, with the odd burst into song when a particular sound pushes the button, and I notice that quite often the volume of the lower register (below middle C) drops disproportionately to that of the upper register as you go down. Often to the point where you can't play the song because the lower end is drowned out by the upper end. This seems to apply to many types of sound - strings, electric pianos synths, horns - and no amount of button pushing, knob twiddling, and slider sliding (with the appropriate lights lit) has any effect on the volume. So the question is - why not? What should I be looking at to lift the lower end volume without affecting the upper end, please?

These are user sounds that I've downloaded on which the superknob has no effect.

Thanks ...

 
Posted : 07/03/2017 6:20 pm
david
Posts: 0
Reputable Member
 

While in a performance I'm not sure how you can manually adjust key range volume like a velocity curve parameter. You can play harder on the low end to make it louder. Is there such a thing as a volume curve where you can program the performance to play louder in certain key ranges? I don't know. Try changing the velocity curve to make playing louder on the low end require less key pressure.

 
Posted : 07/03/2017 7:04 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

Each element (1-8) within each PART (1-8, assuming local keyboard control) has an Amplitude->Level/Pan menu and parameter "Level/Key" which translates to "Level Key Follow Sensitivity" - Reference Manual pg. 109.

Manual states:

Level/Key (Level Key Follow Sensitivity)
Determines the degree to which the notes (specifically, their position or octave range) affect the volume of
the selected Element. A Center Key setting of C3 is used as the basic setting.
Settings: -64 – +0 – +63
Positive values: Lowers the output level for lower notes and raises it for higher notes.
Negative values: Raises the output level for lower notes and lowers it for higher notes.

Center Key (Level Key Follow Sensitivity Center Key)
This indicates that the central note for “Level/Key” above is C3. Keep in mind that this is for display
purposes only; the value cannot be changed.

The velocity curve, level/vel, etc. can be set in order to adjust how middle-C behaves. Then the above Level/Key will scale notes below and above middle C according to the the slope of the Level/Key setting.

This method is within the context of a single element. If you have elements spread out in key ranges (say element 1=lowest octave(s), element 2=middle octave(s), element 3=highest octave(s)) then you may want to have the velocity offset set lowest for element 1 and highest for element 3 with element 2 in the middle. Although the "Level/Key" without doing this would work for all 3 elements in the example as well.

More advanced topic:

What you do not have - within the context of a single element - is a way to set the volume in an arbitrary fashion - at least using the Level/Key feature. There is no "Level/Key" user curve which allows for anything other than a constant slope. In order to accomplish something like this (an arbitrary volume "lookup table") - you would probably have to do something fancy. It can be done. Setup a PART with no output (no MAIN L&R/etc) - just output for the envelope follower. Setup this PART to output very quiet in the lowest notes and loudest in the highest notes. This way, your envelope follower will produce a number from near 0 for lowest notes to near 127 for highest notes. Then you can use the "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign" to assign volume of a given element/PART (or both) according to an arbitrary user curve.

Firmware wishlist (related):

I know I've stated this before - but not horrible to reiterate the feature request since it would make the advanced suggestion easier: it would be "nice" to be able to have a "key value" as a SOURCE option for the Control Assign feature. Instead of "burning" a PART in order to generate an equivalent of the key position data - it would be nice to have this as a more direct option without needing to utilize a "background" PART.

Yes, there are some issues like: what's the value if more than one key is pressed? If I had to choose one policy - I'd say the average of the keys pressed. Value of the key pressed would be the MIDI note data value. If there was an option to set the policy for how to deal with multiple keys - I'd say "lowest, middle, or highest" where lowest=lowest note pressed, highest=highest note pressed, middle=average of all notes pressed. Then there's the problem of dealing with note on vs. note off. If I had to choose one policy, I would say the value initializes at 0 - then is set to the key-resulting value upon a note-on event and does not get reset even if the keys are not being pressed. So the value retains until you press different keys - but does not change when you let go. Unless you're holding down 2 keys, for example, and only let go of one. Then the average would jump to the single key pressed. But when letting go of this key it would stay the same. If I had a choice of the "note off" behavior, then I would say what was stated plus the option to go back to "0" if no key is pressed.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 07/03/2017 7:37 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

These are user sounds that I've downloaded on which the superknob has no effect.

? Without overthinking it, I think this is your answer.

If the sound plays across the keyboard normally when played alone, but the low end gets hidden when the song is playing, this does not (at least to me) indicate any specific problem. Could be the choice of instrumentation, balance of distribution, even simple Equalization... when combining sounds a certain amount of "masking" can happen when instruments share a frequency range. Utilize the stereo field to separate items and clear room for those you want to feature.

Can you post the Performance as a (zipped) .X7B?

 
Posted : 07/03/2017 10:28 pm
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

You need to use Montage Connect to generate an X7B (and then ZIP it so the forum accepts the file). I also always prefer X7B as loading an X7B destroys absolutely no saved data. Which means if I load an X7B the first thing after a power-on of Montage - nothing is lost and there is no need to backup anything to prevent losing data.

The "gotcha", however, is if the offending performance is from a user performance which includes user waveforms. Then there's not a great way to deliver the waveforms apart from the original file used (X3A, X0A, X7U, etc).

... there's not a public domain tool to extract waveform data from these files.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 08/03/2017 6:56 am
Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Hello david, BM, and Jason - thank you! I thought it may be tricky - wondering if I could split the keyboard without changing the Pf, in some way, and jack the volume up at the lower end? I'm not in my music room, but when I get the chance I'll sort out a suitable patch and convert it to an X7B on the 'Connect' (and zip it Jason!) to put it up on the site. What seems to happen is that the lower you go on the keyboard below C3, the more the volume reduces (or at least seems to) whereas the upper end maintains full volume, so the melody drowns out the backing.

Just waiting for my XENYX 1202FX mixer to arrive - Chronopost promises 3.15 this afternoon. I see it has two switches for -10dB +4dB, each applying to two channels - an attribute I had missed originally. And the inputs/outputs are balanced. you're right Jason. Lots of other little tricks I can play about with ... but I'm trying not to expect too much!

 
Posted : 08/03/2017 10:18 am
Jason
Posts: 8259
Illustrious Member
 

You can start by taking one of BM's suggestions. Once the mixer arrives - plug Montage into the mixer channels 1 and 2 (left and right). I say to use these because there are more options for EQ shaping on the 1st 4 channels. Next - in the EQ section - turn your highs full counter-clockwise (-15), mids to center (0), and lows to full clockwise (+15). Make sure the "low cut" button is not pressed on either of the first two channels. This is not a fantastic way to set EQs - but offers an extreme where the high end of the keyboard is subdued and low end of the keyboard is boosted (assuming the pitch of the performance constantly increases from lowest note to highest note and does not have some sort of split where higher-positioned keys sound lower than some lower-positioned keys).

If the high end is no longer drowning out the low end, then you can adjust the highs and lows to a more sensible position by decreasing the lows a bit (rotating towards 0) and enhance the highs a bit (also rotating towards 0) until the sound works.

EQ may not be able to solve your issue if, for some reason, the low end of the keyboard really does stop outputting sound for some reason. You cannot EQ silence. If EQ doesn't work for you, then some other method may need to be employed.

You could adjust the EQ using the keyboard - but it would be "easier" to do on the mixer then you can choose to transfer that knowledge to the keyboard settings down the road. You would want the keyboard to adjust the EQ for these performances because presumably this new EQ that may work for the offending performances would trim too much of the highs out for the Montage preset performances (non-offending performances).

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 08/03/2017 9:14 pm
Karl
 Karl
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

I would like to increase the volume in the C4 - C6 range for 'FM E Piano.' Following discussions on this post, and looking at page 109 of the reference manual, this appears to be possible using "Level/Key (Level Key Follow Sensitivity)."

My challenge is that I can't find the Level Key screen or control. Page 108 of the reference manual indicates the path is:

[PERFORMANCE] > [EDIT] > Part selection > element selection > [Amplitude] ... to access the Level/Key feature.

Available path: [PERFORMANCE] > [EDIT] > Part SETTINGS (not 'selection') > ... and then ... I am unable to follow the recommended path

See attached screen shot.

Guidance please.

Thanks.

Attached files

 
Posted : 24/06/2017 7:12 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Karl wrote:

I would like to increase the volume in the C4 - C6 range for 'FM E Piano.' Following discussions on this post, and looking at page 109 of the reference manual, this appears to be possible using "Level/Key (Level Key Follow Sensitivity)."

My challenge is that I can't find the Level Key screen or control. Page 108 of the reference manual indicates the path is:

[PERFORMANCE] > [EDIT] > Part selection > element selection > [Amplitude] ... to access the Level/Key feature.

Available path: [PERFORMANCE] > [EDIT] > Part SETTINGS (not 'selection') > ... and then ... I am unable to follow the recommended path

See attached screen shot.

Guidance please.

Thanks.

Hi Karl,
The problem is you are looking at the wrong page in the Reference Manual for what you state you want to do.

Please see pages 143-144. The Performance "The FM E. Piano" is an FM-X construct, not AWM2.

You will need to identify the Operators that are active Carriers (audible) and then work with their scaling parameters (Op 4, 6, and 8). When you enter EDIT on an FM-X Part... you can use the third row of right front panel buttons to select an Operator (or the OP1-OP8 boxes in the screen); you can use the fourth row of buttons to Mute or unMute an Element.

The "Lvl/KeyLo" and "Lvl/KeyHi" along with the "Curve Lo" and "Curve Hi" let you contour the Operator Level across the scale, and the "BreakPoint" let's you set the center point for your scaling.

Then repeat it for both PARTs (1 and 2)
This Performances uses two Parts to create a faux stereo FM-X sound

Elements are components used to build AWM2 sounds. Operators are the individual Wave sources in the FM-X engine. Due to the different technologies you will see different sets of control parameters. You can scale the output level of each Operator across the keyboard. If you scale the output level of a Modulator you are changing the timbre (tone) across the keyboard. If you scale the output level of a Carrier you are changing the loudness across the keys.

If you get stuck making adjustments, let us know

 
Posted : 24/06/2017 8:23 pm
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