when I import a wave form , it is already a multi sample and that is also a key banks. So what is the point to add a new key bank on an existing key bank ? 🤯 

Source: http://files.keyfax.com/download/S90_Glossary.pdf

KeyBank: A keybank is the note range and velocity range to which a wave (Sample data) is assigned. A maximum of 2 samples can share the same keybank – this accommodates “stereo” waveforms. A group of keybanks (up to a maximum of 128) make up a Waveform.

... and a Waveform is what is assigned to an element.  Therefore, you could have a single element that represents an entire instrument with key ranges and velocity layers already programmed at the level of a single Waveform which uses multiple keybanks.

However, one element also has one set of element parameters.  If you did use a single element (one Waveform) then that single element would share all of the element-level parameters.   If you wanted to be able to have multiple sets of differing element parameters for different ranges of the keyboard or different velocity layers ... or if you wanted to be able to assign different insertion effects to different samples then you would not "pack" everything in a single element but instead would use multiple elements and perhaps not have so many keybanks loaded into a single Waveform.  

The new architecture allowing for more elements per Part means you don't have to "pack" waveforms with as many samples in order to fit within a single Part.  You can now more liberally split up Waveforms that contain less horizontal key range information and/or less vertical velocity information.  And each of these waveforms can now inherit their own individual set of element parameters because there's the "space" to spread out among 128 elements.

What you would want to do is explore what settings are available to you at the element level to see why you may or may not want to have individual element settings.  I've mentioned insertion effect assignment as one possibility - but there's a lot more (LFO, XA control, etc).

I miss the point of adding multiple key banks to one waveform.

The Operation doc, starting on page 312, explains how 'samples' are used to create 'key banks' and how those 'key banks' are used to create 'waveforms'.

After reviewing those pages please post any questions so we can better understand what points you are missing.

when I import a wave form , it is already a multi sample and that is also a key banks.

No - you import 'samples' (an external *.wav file) not wave forms. You create a waveform by adding, or more, 'key banks' to a waveform. Each key bank corresponds to one 'sample'.

The terminology Yamaha uses can be confusing:

1. sample - an external *.wav file like the type of common audio file you can play on your computer. This is NOT a waveform in the manner Yamaha uses the term 'waveform'.

2. key bank - a 'container' for a single 'sample' - you can set velocity and other parameters for the key bank that will control when it will be selected and used for a key press

3. waveform - a 'container' consisting of from 1-256 key banks, with each keybank containing a mono or stereo sound 'sample'. A waveform can be assigned to an AWM2 element.

The op doc mentioned earlier has a diagram that shows the hierarchical structure of a waveform.

So what is the point to add a new key bank on an existing key bank

What you import is a 'sample' which is a '*.wav' file. It does NOT contain key banks.

Confusing? Yes, it can be.

Thanks everybodies for answers, I will take a concrete exemple:

i had made with sample robots some multi sample from Kontakt library. Samples were made every 6 halftone  and I made two multi sample with two velocity. I had tw waveform. Then SR converted these two  multi sample for montage waveform format. Then I loaded these waveform in two elements of a part. Key Banks were included in the waveform I suppose. When I went to the screen edit waveform, I could see the range of the key banks and I decided to extent the first sample and last sample to covering a larger area of the keyboard.

Posted by: Toby

↑

key bank - a 'container' for a single 'sample' - you can set velocity and other parameters for the key bank that will control when it will be selected and used for a key press

 

So one key bank is one sample? So the menu « add key banks » in edit waveform is for add samples? What are the another parameter than velocity. Ok you made me curious I have to dig more in the waveform edit menu.

Posted by: Jason

↑

Therefore, you could have a single element that represents an entire instrument with key ranges and velocity layers already programmed at the level of a single Waveform which uses multiple keybanks.

Is that mean you can put more than one multi sample in one element? I did not realise that. Is this made by « add key banks »? In edit waveform. I go to check the manual again I have miss this point .

Posted by: Toby

↑

The Operation doc, starting on page 312,

Oups! I don’t find the operation doc. There is the reference manual and the owner manual and the data list but they don’t have so many pages, not 320…maybe are you speaking about the Montage m….

So, ok what I understand is that add key bank in the edit waveform menu will load a new sample, I suppose it is possible to load at once one multi sample/multi keybanks. Then you can in one waveform have 4 ? layers of multisample/ keybanks assigned to their own velocity. I did not know and I was using one layer of keybanks per element. that is good to know. I can build more complex part. Have I got the point? Editing parameters of keybanks this is ok.

Yes - you can pack more than a single sample into one element.

A waveform is assigned to an element and the waveform can have many samples.  If you were using one sample per element then you may have been underutilizing the available resources.

When you use Sample Robot (available at no cost to Montage classic owners) this software will fairly easily create Waveforms with as many samples per key as you provide.  Meaning that you can say every key have a sample or every 5th key have a sample (and interpolate for the keys without samples).  You can also do this same thing manually using the Montage on-board menus - at least in terms of creating multi-sample Waveforms.  It just takes longer to do.   Also, the free version of Sample Robot doesn't allow for you to use audio files (the paid version does) - so using the Montage is a little more flexible.  The included version of Sample Robot (Montage) requires recording audio through the audio interface triggered by MIDI (doesn't have to be a Montage you're recording - could be the audio output of any MIDI device).

Oups! I don’t find the operation doc. There is the reference manual and the owner manual and the data list but they don’t have so many pages, not 320…maybe are you speaking about the Montage m….

For the original Montage see the 'Edit Waveform' section of the reference doc starting on page 96. It shows the waveform and key bank structure I mentioned before.

So one key bank is one sample? So the menu « add key banks » in edit waveform is for add samples?

Yes -now you've got it!

What are the another parameter than velocity.

The doc, and the 'Edit Waveform' screen show them all:

Velocity Limit low and high

Note Limit low and high

Volume, Pan, Tune Coarse, Tune Fine

i had made with sample robots some multi sample from Kontakt library. Samples were made every 6 halftone and I made two multi sample with two velocity. I had tw waveform. Then SR converted these two multi sample for montage waveform format.

Then you now have a Yamaha 'waveform' just as if you had created it on the Montage.

Then I loaded these waveform in two elements of a part. Key Banks were included in the waveform I suppose. When I went to the screen edit waveform, I could see the range of the key banks and I decided to extent the first sample and last sample to covering a larger area of the keyboard.

You do that on the 'Edit Waveform' screen. You can edit an existing key bank to change its parameters to cover a 'larger area of the keyboard'. And you can create new keybanks if you want to load new samples.

It's not really documented anywhere but sample input respects loop-point meta data embedded into WAV files.  Usually when you create a WAV (or download one from the net) the WAV file won't have this information.  Therefore (without adding the loop point meta data), the WAV will be imported and will just be a "one shot" type sample playback meaning it will start at the beginning and play until the end then stop without any looping.   Although not unique to Wavosaur - on Windows I have used Wavosaur to create WAV files with loop points that get properly imported into Montage.   On the Mac you can use "Endless Wav".   I think I've used other software before too.

I say this because it seems you're "hand rolling" Waveforms here so you may want to eventually get loop points working for you too.  This is another aspect that Sample Robot automates.  It figures out the best loop point to create the smoothest and most natural sounding loop.

Posted by: Jason

↑

This is another aspect that Sample Robot automates.  It figures out the best loop point to create the smoothest and most natural sounding loop.

Yeah, that is one is the best & most useful features in SampleRobot.  You can let it auto-adjust the loop points, and it gives you other options to try if the one selected doesn't loop as good as you want.  You can also just move the points around a bit based off the initial or suggested loop points, and a few times I found the best loop point somewhere else; However most times I found that the first automated loop point works best! 😉 

Yeah, that is one is the best & most useful features in SampleRobot.

They still haven't said if they plan to do an M version SampleRobot but last January they did hint at updating the current version

https://samplerobot.com/blogs/news/new-synthesizer-flagship-landed

Add keybank in edit waveform is what it is, 🤕  you can only load one keybank and this bring you to only audio file content that is useless for me. So there is no way to build velocity layers with multisamples edited (loops point etc….) embedded in a single element. it seems the only way to build edited multisamples velocity layer is what I did before, one waveform multisamples keybanks per element. Then It is a very good point that montage M allow 128 element per part.

So there is no way to build velocity layers with multisamples edited (loops point etc….) embedded in a single element.

Sure there is if you use the hierarchy the way it was designed. The doc shows the hierarchy

A Yamaha 'waveform' consists of up to 256 key banks with each key bank containing one mono or stereo sample (e.g. external wav file with loop points if needed).

For each key bank you can specify the note range and the velocity range. This allows you to create layers, even overlapping layers. The sample selected will depend on the actual key you press as well as the velocity you press it with.

it seems the only way to build edited multisamples velocity layer is what I did before, one waveform multisamples keybanks per element.

Not quite correct. You do NOT assign keybanks to elements - you assign a single Yamaha 'waveform' to an element. That waveform can contain multiple keybanks, note ranges and velocity ranges as mentioned above.