Posted by: Colin

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I'm currertly using the Audio output to play a backing track to which I can play along to.

The Audio is currently 'default assigned' to the main L/R channel but can this be changed to a different channel (say Left output) via a setting change?

This is so I can have the 'audio backing track' set at a different volume to my live keyboard playing

Do you mean you're using the Audio Input (rather than Audio Output)?

Why not consider using WAV or AIFF copies of your backing tracks stored on attached USB? They can be played back independently with separate volume control that's even controllable via front panel encoder. They can also be linked to their relevant performance in a LiveSet.

Just to clarify then, yes...I'm playing WAV backing tracks stored on a USB stick and being played back on the Audio in/out. The audio backing is currently outputting to the main L/R channel which is also the same output channel that my own keyboard playing is going out on...hence they are both going out on one line level on my mixer. Yes...I know you can set the audio playback level from 0 up to 255 but I really need it higher which I could do if it was going out out on a different output channel.

My only current 'workaround' has been to wack up the master volume fader and then reduce the performance parts of my keyboard playing but this seems quite a crude solution so I'm wondering if there's a better way to solve this.    

Meanwhile I didn't know u could control the audio level from the front panel..where's that then please?

Where is the USB stick inserted? In the Montage M or an external playback device?

If you play the backing tracks directly from the Montage M, after you press the playback button, press a second time and you'll see the lights above the two leftmost encoders below the LCD screen light up. Those encoders control the audio stream position and volume. 

I'm on the older Montage 6.....usb stick plugged into the back

This is so I can have the 'audio backing track' set at a different volume to my live keyboard playing

If you want to treat audio separately you need to use the A/D Input jack on the back and feed the audio from another external device. Then the Montage can treat that A/D feed as a separate channel which can also have its own effects and control.

See the 'A/D Input Block' section on page 10 of the reference doc. By using a separate for the audio that part can participate in ALL of the mixing that is done with the other parts you are playing.

Yes...I know you can set the audio playback level from 0 up to 255 but I really need it higher which I could do if it was going out out on a different output channel.

I believe you are referring to the 'Audio Volume' parameter on the Play / Rec -> Audio screen. A wav file has a volume encoded within the file. That parameter then provides a limited ability to modify the file volume. That is the ONLY on-board mechanism for altering wav file volume that I am aware of.

So the short answer to your question is 'no' - for the workflow you describe that volume setting you found is it.

If you must use wav files you should first modify the volume settings within the files you will be using so they are consistent with each other. If you don't then one file may play loud while another plays soft.

That is, don't try to use a set of wav files that may have been created differently (e.g. with different volumes) and use them together. Differing volume is just one of the most obvious issues that will arise.

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The Play / Rec screen functionality, IMO, is more suited for recording your own material that may include material in an existing wav file. For that use case you DO need to adjust your performance parts to match what the wav files include so they can be recorded at the proper relationship to each other.

Once recorded they can then be converted to a wav file that will have the proper volume/level relationship between the sounds.

When material is in an audio format it can be more difficult to work with since everything else in the instrument is digital. MIDI is a digital format that is basically a 'recipe' for how to create sound.

The Pattern functionality in the Montage was added to make it easier to use MIDI to create complex material, including for creating backing material. See the Mastering Montage article for patterns

https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-series-synthesizers/mastering-montage-modx-pattern-sequencer-features-in-os-v3/

Posted by: Colin

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The audio backing is currently outputting to the main L/R channel which is also the same output channel that my own keyboard playing is going out on...hence they are both going out on one line level on my mixer.

My only current 'workaround' has been to wack up the master volume fader and then reduce the performance parts of my keyboard playing but this seems quite a crude solution so I'm wondering if there's a better way to solve this.

There are several options you could try.

(1) As per what you are currently doing, instead of jacking up the Master volume fader for each Performance, you could increase the Output volume of all Performances by going to Utility > Settings > Audio I/0 > Output "Main L&R" and change from the default +0dB to +6 or +12dB, then you could reduce the performance Parts volumes.  Yes, it's still kind of a crude way to do it.

(2) Instead of changing the volumes of those Parts & the Master volume fader for each Performance, you could instead change/re-route the "Part Output" on all the Parts to "AssignL&R" (on all the Performances you want to play .wav file backing tracks on) and make sure that the main "Assign L&R" is set to +0 or even -6dB under Utility > Settings > Audio I/0 > Output.  You would then need to attach additional cables to the "Assign L&R" physical Output jacks on the Montage, as in this scenario you would be using the "Main L&R" jacks for the .wav file backing tracks, and the "Assign L&R" jacks for all the Performance 'Parts'.  This is still kind of backwards, but it allows you to use .wav files from USB as the input source for backing tracks, and it saves you from changing all the Performance Parts' volumes and instead re-routing all the Parts' Output to separate physical output jacks ("Assign L&R"), while the .wav file backing track outputs to the ("Main L&R") jacks.

An additional potential down side to this is that you wouldn't hear the "Assign L&R" Output (the Performance 'Parts' you are playing) through your headphones if you use those, but instead you'd hear only the .wav file backing track through the headphones.  So this would likely be backwards if you needed to use you headphones at any point.

(3) As Toby mentioned, possibly a better solution is that you could use the "A/D Input" jack(s) on the back and input the audio from another external device.  Doing it this way (instead of via .wav files from USB as the input source), you would not need to change anything on the Performances' Part volumes or Outputs, and you could have more control/adjust the "A/D Input" volume for audio played using the physical input "Gain" knob located below the "ON/OFF" button under A/D Input on the top left of the Montage.  You could then further adjust each Performance's 'A/D In' Volume (under the 'Mixing' tab) from the default 100 (in most Performances) to 127.  Thereby possibly not requiring additional Output Jacks for "Assign L&R" and have everything go out the "Main L&R" jacks.

However if you had the "A/D Input" Gain knob up full + the "AD" In Volume under 'Mixing' set to the max 127, and the backing track still does not have enough volume, then you may want to do this below (involves using the "Assign L&R" output jacks):

(4) Continue feeding the backing tracks in via the "A/D Input" source/jack(s), but instead of increasing the Master volume & lowering all the Part volumes for each Performance, you could instead re-route the "A/D Input" to the "Assign L&R" physical Output jacks for just the backing track only, and thereby have more control over the volumes between all the Performance Parts ("Main L&R" output) and the A/D Input backing tracks ("Assign L&R" output).

This would involve setting the 'Output Select' to "AssignL&R" under "HOME" > Edit (Common/Audio) > Audio In > Mixing under the 'A/D In' section.  You could also adjust the A/D in Volume to 127 here as well for each Performance.  Then you can adjust the overall Volume levels of both the "Main L&R" output & "Assign L&R" output for 'ALL' Performances under Utility > Settings > Audio I/O in the Output section, changing the Main L&R from +0dB to something lower if necessary, but more importantly, increasing the Assign L&R from +0dB up to as much as +12dB

I hope this is helpful.

Assign L&R strip away system and master effects so there is a penalty for doing this.

Posted by: Jason

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Assign L&R strip away system and master effects so there is a penalty for doing this.

Ah, so (2) above would not be a good option at all...

Option (4) is how I would run a backing track through.

Option (4) is how I would run a backing track through.

4) Continue feeding the backing tracks in via the "A/D Input" source/jack(s), but instead of increasing the Master volume & lowering all the Part volumes for each Performance, you could instead re-route the "A/D Input" to the "Assign L&R" physical Output jacks for just the backing track only, and thereby have more control over the volumes between all the Performance Parts ("Main L&R" output) and the A/D Input backing tracks ("Assign L&R" output).

I can see how that would work but I don't understand why any of that reassignment is needed.

Once you use the A/D Input it essentially becomes just another part and you can control the mixing at both its 'part' level and at the performance level.

Page 44 of the Montage reference doc shows the graphic for the 'Mixing' tab at the performance level. On that screen you can set: the level, Rev Send, Var Send, Dry Level and Pan for all parts and the AD and Digital 'parts'.

Page 147 shows the screen for the 'Edit - Common/Audio -> Audio In -> Mixing' and it has the above parameters as well as some additional ones.

Wouldn't that be the simpler way to go unless OP finds it doesn't provide what they want?

Posted by: Toby

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I can see how that would work but I don't understand why any of that reassignment is needed.

Once you use the A/D Input it essentially becomes just another part and you can control the mixing at both its 'part' level and at the performance level.

Page 44 of the Montage reference doc shows the graphic for the 'Mixing' tab at the performance level. On that screen you can set: the level, Rev Send, Var Send, Dry Level and Pan for all parts and the AD and Digital 'parts'.

Page 147 shows the screen for the 'Edit - Common/Audio -> Audio In -> Mixing' and it has the above parameters as well as some additional ones.

Wouldn't that be the simpler way to go unless OP finds it doesn't provide what they want?

Yes that would be the simpler way to go ... as per your previous post [my (3) above]!

The only reasons I could see to go with (4) would be if there were volume issues or if you wanted the output of the backing track to be separated from the Output of all the other Parts for some reason...

For example, if setting it as per how you propose above [my (3)], but the input volume wasn't enough for the backing track, even after the "A/D Input" Gain knob was up full (&/or highest without clipping) + the "AD" In Volume under 'Mixing' was set to the max 127, and yet the backing track still didn't have enough volume...then at that point lowering the volumes of all the Parts would be the only way to do this in order to have "Main L&R" as the output for everything (& not use "Assign L&R" as an output).  For me at that point, I would choose (4) to re-route the "A/D Input" to "Assign L&R", as changing the volumes on all Parts for all Performances would not be a workaround that I would choose to do.  But perhaps the OP or others would prefer changing Part volumes to keep "Main L&R" as the single output source..!?

If utilizing additional output jacks ("Assign L&R") was not an option for some reason, then modifying Part volumes might be the only way int he above scenario!? ...but hopefully there would be enough volume for the backing tracks via "A/D Input" with the Gain knob up high & the "AD" In Volume set to 127, so that Part volumes would not need to be modified.  😉 

Thanks for expanding on your explanation.That really helps me in trying to understand the possibilities and what criteria to take into account when choosing among them.

When I said "wouldn't it be simpler" I wasn't suggesting that would always be the right choice to make. My personal preference is to have everything (e.g. backing tracks) in MIDI format because then it is easier, for me anyway, to treat all of the tracks the same.

And I can avoid issues about hearing different things if I am wearing headphones versus listening to the monitors.

I'm not sure we know all of the things OP is trying to take into account.

Trying to share what I know and learn about what I don't - so the additional detail helps - thanks.

If you have the memory and plenty of setup time (meaning prepared and not done on the fly) then you could also import your audio to a drum Part and play the sample. By turning off note-off a single piano key press starts the audio and it will continue to play until the end.

This will allow for using Part volume to dictate the mix or you could assign this drum Part to Assign L&R and use a mixer.  It would be better to use Assign L&R for the sample since this, I imagine, would not want any effects applied.  Turn off insertion effects if those are on.

Not necessarily the "best" option, but another way that gets you there.

It would be better to use Assign L&R for the sample since this, I imagine, would not want any effects applied.

Not sure I understand why that is 'better'. Is my understanding correct that a part doesn't have to have any effects applied at any level?

If so doesn't using Assign L&R mean another pair of cables are involved?

I'm alluding to the option where tone generator Parts (AWM2, FM-X, etc) which probably lean fairly heavily on system and master effects were suggested to use Assign L&R outs which would strip away these effects (while keeping the sample for background music on Main L&R) that it would make more sense -- if you were planning on using Assign L&R as a way to manage routing -- to use the background music on Assign L&R and leave all the rest alone.   Better than the option that strips effects away from an Parts that "rely" on these effects.  

Not a better option vs the list.  The judgment call for that would be up to the player and individual goals.