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Yamaha Montage Sticky Key(s)

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Hey guys

I've got a serious problem with the Montage 8. I've got about 2 misbehaving keys (they are very distant from each other) that are sticky keys
I don't know why and how it started, I bought my Montage in late Nov 2018, for more than 2 months it's like that, the Montage 8 never left my house, never dropped/banged and no drinks or anything was spilled or dropped on it. I never smoke in the house. Anyway, I am disappointed for such a quality keyboard that it happened to me, the problematic keys are very distant from each other which is peculiar. Anyhow, how would I fix the problem and what causes this? I would need to open my Montage to see, but what's the best way to open up with the least amount of screws remove because I don't want to remove stuff I don't need and make my job harder... Do I need to remove every single screw in the back or? and once inside anything else or do I see the keybed right away to see what's up? If a key mechanism is bad and needs replacement should I be able to talk to the shop for free replacement given the time (about a year and 3 months now passed I think)

Thanks for any help, advice and insight provided. Any tips are welcome... I am inexperienced in fixing keyboards but I know my way around basic tools..
Thanks in advance and hope you have a great week everyone

 
Posted : 09/02/2020 12:45 am
Jason
Posts: 7912
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My understanding is that Montage got a year extension on warranty. There was a Yamaha webpage showing this. So Nov 2018 should mean you have 8 months of warranty left. Yamaha reps can confirm or correct.

If under warranty, keep your tools away and have it checked out by a service center. No need to void your warranty.

 
Posted : 09/02/2020 1:45 am
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Hey Jason thanks for answering. Is there any documentation that proves a bought Montage has a 2 year warranty? thing is I wanna show something to the dealer so they don't contradict me saying its 1 year. I am not in the US so I don't know what's the policy in each country for YAMAHA but if I ask the shop I bet they'll give the easy answer which is 1 tear in order to avoid the need to fix it themselves.... thanks! the dealer is an official qualified YAMAHA dealer/

 
Posted : 09/02/2020 10:06 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Hi Yotam,
J, may have misstated the facts because he answered assuming you live in the United States. Warranty can differ, as you have correctly suspected, based on the country in which you purchased your instrument... warranties are taken very seriously. They are a promise from the manufacturer that if the instrument failed and it is deemed that fault is in the manufacture of the instrument, it will be taken care of... Yamaha has a stellar reputation for quality and trust me, no one at the company puts that at risk.

Your first move is to contact your local retailer or the dealer through which you purchased your instrument. They can look up the Warranty for you, if you cannot find it yourself. Or you can call your regional Yamaha distributor (listed on the final page of your Owner’s Manual).

Remember, Yamaha wants you to be happy, your local dealer wants you to be happy. The authorized service center is tasked with looking at your instrument and making a determination about the issue. You can then decide on what’s to be done based on their recommendation. You need to get the process started.

Example, if you lived in the United States, you could go to the usa.yamaha.com corporate site, and search “Warranty”. Usually there is link to “Warranty Information” at the bottom of the page. There you could see the Warranty policy for the United States (only). And you can look up any particular individual product.

I will not claim this is the case for every location in the world (because I, personally, do not know that all regional websites follow the same layout), but you can proceed from there. Let us know.

Word of advice: Do not attempt to fix it yourself, particularly if you don’t know the cause. And never start removing screws without actually knowing what you are doing. You wouldn’t do it in your car without specific knowledge, don’t do it in your synth... the engine may fall out!
Best leave things to the professionals.

In general, on websites that have international participation, it’s a good rule of thumb to consult *local* help on issues like Warranties and Electrical issues.

 
Posted : 09/02/2020 1:03 pm
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Thank you for your support Mister, following your advice I just emailed a detailed letter to the site of the local vendor which I bought the Montage 8 from. I hope they can find a solution in which they won't rip me off... I am 100% sure I didn't cause the problem as stated in the OP I keep my instruments as if I have OCD, Both my keyboards actually are covered when not in use etc. to avoid dust and other stuff from potentially getting in. I am now convinced not to try to do anything by myself... it's a very expensive instrument and I don't know what I'm looking for... if it comes down to spare parts it's even worse.

Overall can't say I am not disappointed, because I love the instrument and Yamaha's top of the line are made in Japan not China... and now I probably will have to carry that hefty thing but I pray at the end I will have it fixed one way or the other. Thanks again

 
Posted : 09/02/2020 7:44 pm
Jason
Posts: 7912
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Yes, good thing I deferred to Yamaha reps to cover any gaps in my information.

Some regions have information online as to what the warranty coverage is.

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/PMD_Synthesizer_Products_2018_e03041b6a027db095a2aa3435a2b8ffc.pdf
2 Year Warranty (USA)

https://ca.yamaha.com/en/support/warranty/musical-instruments-warranty/warranty_duration_keyboard_synthesizer/index.html
2 Year Warranty (Canada)

https://au.yamaha.com/en/support/warranty/Synthesizers/index.html
5 Year Warranty (Australia)

Lots of regions don't seem to have detailed information such as above. Maybe you can find yours. But emailing as you have is probably best.

India appears to only have a 1yr warranty.

... and some dealers supply their own warranty.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/yamaha_montage_7.htm
Thomann Music has its own warranty deal - 3year.

 
Posted : 10/02/2020 3:44 am
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I just checked the original papers of my purchase, it was a year warranty only and that year has passed. Conveniently this issue has come up just not long after the warranty expired. Gosh, fixing this will probably cost me an arm and a leg, just like buying a new Montage. I am certain I didn't cause this problem, it's so strange because the key does always trigger and looks fine on the outside but many times it take way more weight to press it and sometimes it's "normal". like the mechanism resets the "faulty" like in a circle. IDK what's up in there. Also another key does "noises" when pressed especially when it's repeatedly playing...and also a smiliar problem but to a lesser extent so it is technically playable but far from optimal.
A keybed of supposed to be high quality failing out of the blue after a year is a shame. I am tempted to open the keyboard again... it's so heavy anyway it can't fit in my small car and all this headache just to be charged much $$ so the shop ships it to their lab which is 2 hour drive and then back all the shipment that they are gonna add to the price.. they still haven't answered my mail anyway, IDK... I am without ideas. I never had this with a YAMAHA instrument 🙁

 
Posted : 10/02/2020 10:22 pm
Jason
Posts: 7912
Illustrious Member
 

My original papers showed a year - but Yamaha changed the warranty (for my geo in the US) to add a year. It's still worth getting the answer based on your locale.

 
Posted : 11/02/2020 4:20 am
 John
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Did you get this resolved? My Montage also has sticky keys now. Never taken outside the house and always covered when not in use so am curious why this has happened. In the past, I owned a Motif ES for many years and never had a problem with sticky keys. There are some videos on YouTube where Yamaha XF and Clavinova owners show how to replace sticky keys but am not sure where you can get these replacement keys and if the same procedure can be applied on a Montage.

 
Posted : 24/02/2020 10:27 am
 Jens
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I am experiencing similar problems. B above middle C is sticky. It is not so bad that it gets stuck every time it's pressed, so I did not send it in for repair, since issues that occur sometimes are tricky. At the repair shop they typically won't occur... Anyhow, since it is intermittent, I've tried to track down what it could be. The Montage 8 has just been in my apartment, nothing spilled. I stupidly did not have a dust cover until this started to happen, so it was "in the open" for around three years.

I've tried pressing the keys in different manners and compared the resistance/action to other well functioning keys. What I did notice that when I pushed the key to the right, against the C key next to it, it was significantly more friction, almost like there was glue between the keys. There is nothing to be seen between the keys, I believe it is something internal. If I repeatedly press the key in this position, the stickiness in the normal position becomes less of a problem. Similar when the key is forced to the A to the left of it, but not as much.

I realize that I don't know what is happening internally, and that it is not recommended procedure. But sending it to repair in these times is somewhat complicated, and in this way I can use the keyboard. I am not applying much force, but it's not how the key was designed to be pressed.

 
Posted : 01/05/2020 6:14 pm
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I am also experiencing a sticking E1 key on my less-than-two-year-old Montage. Called the Yamaha service number and they will cover the repair. However, I will have to ship to California from North Dakota as we have no authorized Yamaha repair facility in the area. This, in my mind, is not an acceptable solution. I will have to cover the shipping costs to Yamaha... not a problem. What concerns me is that I will be without a keyboard for possibly weeks. In addition, the keyboard could sustain more serious damage during shipping and this is not a risk I am willing to take. As a result, I have opted to continue using my keyboard in its current condition for the next 6 months until my warranty expires. At that point I will replace the sticking key myself. Appears to be a very simple process. I do have an extensive mechanical background and the repair seems pretty straight forward. Keys area relatively inexpensive at approximately $10.00 plus shipping (eBay). I have included a link to a YouTube video that walks you through the replacement process on the Yamaha MO 8 and Yamaha Motif. I think the Yamaha Montage uses the same keys on its keyboard. Hope this helps.

 
Posted : 28/05/2020 4:43 pm
 Jens
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Practicing a trill on the sometimes sticky key drove me up the wall, so I decided to take a peek inside. Since it's past the warranty time, there wasn't much to lose. Removing the side panels and the front panel below the keys, I could see that there were quite a bit of lubricant on the edges of the keys. These are normally covered by the front panel. There were more in the middle of the keyboard, where keys are used often, than on the highest/lowest keys. Doesn't look to me like it's supposed to be like that, maybe they are too generous with the stuff. This lubricant combined with dust, hair and fur is to no big surprise not very good. I first vacuumed the exposed ends of the keys. Then I cleaned between the keys with a cloth. In this manner I could remove some of this gunk, which seems to have fixed the stickiness. I can no longer get the sticky behavior by pushing the key to the right. I could not see anything between the keys before cleaning, so guessing that the issue is with stuff below the key, which gets dragged out when cleaning between the keys.

During most of the time I've had the Montage, there were three cats in the apartment. I've just recently started to cover the keys (and now the cats are gone). I get that I have not provided the ideal environment for the instrument. With that said, this design seems flawed. I am not the only one experiencing trouble with sticky keys, and I would guess it's the same issue. There weren't crazy amounts of crud either, so I don't think the environment has been that extreme. Since the distances are small, it doesn't take much debris to cause problems.

So, there seems to be a low tech solution. I think some of these issues might be solved by cleaning without disassembling.

 
Posted : 12/06/2020 12:20 pm
 Jens
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So my theory that cleaning the key would fix the problem turned out to be incorrect. It got better, but there was still more resistance on that particular key. I can confirm that the keys on the Montage are the same as on the video Kelly posted, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds3OYW9No6k. That together with this one opening up a Montage 7 should be enough to get you through the process of switching keys https://youtu.be/PgGuPeXpzi4?t=45.

On the Montage you don't need to move the entire keybed in order to get the key out, you simply remove the front. There were different numbers on the B key above middle C which was causing problems, and the highest B which I switched out, 112 and 110 respectively. I did not want the bad key in any useful register, and the swap seems to have worked. Interestingly, the old misbehaving key seems to work fine in the new place.

The instruction video is pretty spot on, using cutlery and all. I really, really hope this fixed the issue and I can go back to enjoying my Montage. There are a few videos out there on replacing keys in these keybeds, which might indicate the design isn't the best...

 
Posted : 30/09/2020 7:24 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Just FYI: Most times a sticking key has a broken component and should be replaced by an authorized service center.
Most times broken keys are operator error (not always, but I’ve found, most often).

It has been my finding that those who break keys often do not have the proper amount of Wattage for their use case and have never properly adjusted Velocity Curves. If you have ever broken a string on an acoustic piano, you probably are in the smallest percentile of players. It takes a gargantuan effort! But it does happen... I mention this only because I want you to envision *effort* and *output*... as with electronics you must find the appropriate balance that works for you, as an individual player.

There is a maximum amount of force that needs to be used to get 127 from an electronic keyboard. If you can reach 127 (record yourself and look at the MIDI data) too easily, that is, you can reach it without significant use of your forearm and shoulder, then you need to
1) to adjust your Velocity Curve to make it harder to get to 127 and
2) get a much LOUDER sound system... or turn up significantly

127 should scare you, as to how loud it is. It is the theoretical maximum in MIDI. Reaching it is a matter of adjustment on the part of the musician. If you set your listening volume so that when you execute a musical ffff quadruple forte... you should expect that to be very loud. As loud as you’d ever need to get. There is no need to hit the keys harder once you reach 127 - hitting harder gets you nothing. It’s maximum.

If you can reach too easily - adjust your velocity curve. If that is not LOUD ... TURN UP!!! Until it matches maximum. It’s for others to tell you to turn down. If you turn up appropriately, you will find that all of a sudden: you stop breaking keys.

Watching Peter Erskine (famous jazz drummer) play an electronic Kit offers a good example of this “adjustment”: back in the 1990s we were recording him to a MIDI sequencer from electronic drum pads.... he immediately hit each pad while viewing the MIDI velocity monitor... he was looking for 127. “I’m making a mental note of where maximum is...” tap, tap, tap, tap... “Okay, if that is 127, I know I have to adjust down from there.” Brilliant...

Lesson: find the ceiling of effort. Set the Volume of your system’s output so that 127 represents the LOUDEST you ever need to get.
Having found the ceiling — you will stopping hitting your head (and in all likelihood, you’ll stop breaking keys).

Hope that helps. Turn up!!!

 
Posted : 05/10/2020 3:57 pm
 Jens
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New Member
 

I try to be conscious of dynamics, and I wish I had the strength and stamina to wreck a keyboard. Seriously though, I've kept the velocity curves at factory default, thinking that they are intended to mimic the action of an acoustic piano.

In one sense I believe the advice above is contradicting itself. The assumption would be that keyboard wreckage is due to putting too much energy into the keys. Having too low playback could make one hit the keys too hard, increase volume and you will play softer. This I understand. But if the velocity curves are changed so it's harder to reach 127, wouldn't that imply you need to put more energy into the keyboard in order to reach 127, and other levels? That would mean that it's actually increasing the risk of breaking keys, not to mention that you get used to hitting the keys too hard for e.g. an acoustic piano. If you would have full 127 no matter how soft you hit they keys, you would learn to use the softest touch. Am I missing something here? For getting a more dynamic performance, I get the point of adjusting the velocity curve, but not for avoiding breaking keys.

 
Posted : 11/10/2020 8:14 am
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