As an owner of both a Montage & YC61, the updated Leslie FX on the YC is far superior to the Montage.

Would it be possible for you to provide the EXACT test harness setup you used on both instruments? That way we can do check out your result to hear the difference you hear.

For example, what performances did you use on each instrument? Did you use presets or ones that you created?

I'm comparing the newish YC "Studio" Leslie on a standard 888000000 setting with the 'All 9 Bars' Montage patch (same drawbar setting). The Montage lacks the 'physicality' of the YC, particularly on the fast setting. It's hard to put into words but the depth & quality of the FX is clearly better on the YC. I could probably get it closer with some work but I think the difference is in the FX itself. This is understandable, Leslies are quite a complex sound, even Yamaha's first version in the YC wasn't great. However now Yamaha have it closer in the 1.2 update, it would be nice if that code could be migrated to the Montage.
I don't think the difference is in the drawbar tones themselves BTW

I don't think the difference is in the drawbar tones themselves BTW

You are correct. The main difference is that there is a Virtual Circuit Modeling (VCM) engine in the YC series that just doesn't exist in the Montage/Modx.

All three have the AWM2 and FM-X engines but only the YCs have the VCM engine.

I don't know if adding the VCM engine to the Montage could be done with only a software update or if that engine needs some additional hardware that the Montage may not have.

VCM (Virtual Circuitry Modeling) is done in the DSP - something Montage and MODX most certainly have. There are already VCM effects inside both keyboards. VCM Mini Filter and VCM Mini Boost was added relatively late in the lifespan of the keyboard. There's a precedence already of adding VCM based effects that were not in MODX/Montage during the initial releases (1.X firmware, 2.X firmware -- speaking for Montage).

Beyond late arrivals to the VCM effect family in these keyboards you have VCM Reverb, VCM Phaser (Stereo and Mono), VCM Compressor 376, VCM Wah (touch, auto, and pedal), VCM EQ 501, and VCM Flanger.

It would be nice to have the YC rotary speaker transplanted to Montage/MODX.

There's already a handful of Ideascale entries for this sort of thing. Here's one (that links others):

source (currently - subject to change): https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/42725

Improved Rotary Simulation Effect Modeled after YC Rotary Effect
vertig0spin Darryl Lowe
04/19/2022 02:17 PM Idea #2159

... now the YC apparently has other modeled components core to the organ sound that Montage/MODX doesn't have. To me those would be less likely transplanted where the rotary speaker seems like it would be more obtainable. In my opinion, rotary speakers are more important than the tonewheels in terms of "nailing". I've got a transistor organ with a Leslie built in (actual Leslie branded) and it sounds great (without having tonewheels at all) when the Leslie is on.

VCM (Virtual Circuitry Modeling) is done in the DSP - something Montage and MODX most certainly have.

That's a little misleading.

Yes - the DSP is involved in VCM modeling and all of the instruments being discussed have a DSP.

But the YC series has additional specialized hardware for VCM that the Montage/Modx don't have as I said, and as you only mention later

... now the YC apparently has other modeled components core to the organ sound that Montage/MODX doesn't have.

The service manuals show the difference.

I think the point Jason is making is that Yamaha could pop just the VCM based Rotary effect into the Montage, but maybe not all the other VCM modeled components that are used in the YC.

If this is the case, then that alone would vastly improve the Montage's organs, because half or more of the Hammond sound is the Rotary effect. I think the other modelled effects are not quite as important and could be emulated relatively closely using samples and other effects. As long as you have great draw bar samples and an awesome VCM Rotary effect, adding clicking noises, percussion, distortion/overdrive effects and other things to the sound is secondary. At the same time the are still quite important, but they can be added via other existing preset samples and effects.

I've watched a lot of the comparison videos that include the Neo Vent II, Nord's, etc., and especially after the YC received that last major update with the vastly improved rotary effect, and that single VCM based update takes the YC sound to that next level that most B3 enthusiasts are going for.

Organimation comes fairly close by utilizing 2 x Rotary 1 effects on the Montage, but it would be better to not burn two of the same effects for one sound, because most likely you will want some level of distortion/overdrive effect, and that brings it up to 3 effects (utilizing the Variation effect).

Will the Montage ever see this? We may know soon, after Yamaha makes their next big announcement, whether the Montage gets 4.0 or not with some new effects!? Two questions come to mind... Will the Montage be replaced with a Montage+ and if so (or regardless), does the Montage still get a 4.0 update? Ok 3 questions, the obvious follow up being this thread, does 4.0 (or only the Montage+, if that happens) get a new VCM rotary effect added?

I think the point Jason is making is that Yamaha could pop just the VCM based Rotary effect into the Montage, but maybe not all the other VCM modeled components that are used in the YC.

The point I am making is that the VCM implementation on the YCs is, to a large degree, based on a small amount of additional hardware that is specialized for VCM.

And the VCM software on the YCs depends on that hardware.

To a large degree the Montage uses a software emulation of VCM and it can't always do what the YCs specialized hardware can do.

That is why emulators that run on PCs are never as good as the orginal - e.g. a windows OS emulator running on a mac or vice versa.

The VCM difference is similar to the difference between a real Analog engine and an FM emulator. You can get close but it's never quite the same.

[quotePost id=120633]The point I am making is that the VCM implementation on the YCs is, to a large degree, based on a small amount of additional hardware that is specialized for VCM.
And the VCM software on the YCs depends on that hardware.
[/quotePost]
Yes, I understand that there is specific hardware on the YC for much if not all of the VCM implementation. I can't remember if I read it, saw it explained in videos, or both.
But how do any of us know for sure that is the case for all of the VCM components on the YC, and specifically the rotary effect..!? Maybe it is, idk..!?

And even if it is & "all" VCM is utilizing the additional hardware specialized for VCM on the YC, it still may be possible for Yamaha to make it work on the Montage...it might not be completely impossible. They 'might' be able to emulate what the hardware does via the Montage hardware &/or OS/software without it losing 'anything', if it's just one component of the VCM implementation on the YC..!?

How do you know for certain that the Montage uses a software emulation of its VCM effects? Is this published somewhere or maybe there's a Yamaha rep/engineer that states this in a video? I'm not saying that it isn't, I'm just curious how you know this..!?

I think there is a much bigger difference between comparing a real Analog engine and an FM emulator, vs between hardware and software based VCM. The first comparison is electrical vs digital processing, and the second is both digital processing (1's & 0's I presume, or at least the same mathematical calculations being done..!?).
Yamaha engineers have the code and know exactly how it runs, so they 'may' be able to emulate it the same on different hardware (&/or software).
It may just come down to a timing/speed/clock issue between the two, and if the VCM rotary effect isn't super processor intensive, it might be possible to have it work the same on the Montage as it does on the YC..!?

In short, we have no way to know for certain what can & can't be done on the Montage with regard to emulating the YC's VCM rotary effect, unless we had direct access to Yamaha's engineers.

In terms of hardware - the Montage/MODX has the components to do this. The SWP70 has the DSP used for VCM. Although I don't have the YC service manual - I know all share the SWP70 as the IC that covers the DSP needs.

The YC is said to "interleave" AWM2 with the modeled organ which is where I think the snag would be. This is a greater architectural change (IMO) than just adding an effect. Therefore, I doubt we will see modeled organs on the MODX/Montage because it stirs the pot too much. However, adding another DSP effect (like the new YC rotating speaker) would be just like adding the VCM Mini Filter /etc that was done before. That's not to say there may not be some other resource constraint like DSP memory for the effects' code or some other constraint not found on the YC.

My main point is that this isn't about missing or different hardware - but more about how those bits and pieces are utilized in the respective products.

Yes, I understand that there is specific hardware on the YC for much if not all of the VCM implementation.

That isn't quite what I was trying to say - maybe I should have been more clear.

On all instruments VCM is a combination of hardware and software. But he YC implementation has some hardware that the Montage/Modx don't have.

If the implementation is pure software then you can duplicate it and 'drop it in' to new hardware.

But you can't take the YC implementation and just drop it in to Montage/Modx. Your only choices are:

1. add the same additional hardward used in the YC to the Montage/Modx
2. improve the software modeling using the same hardware the Montage/Modx already has.

I have to think that Yamaha would have already done a 'drop in' upgrade if that were possible.

But it isn't - and improving the modeling is a question of cost/benefit. Once your hardware choices are locked in your software choices are limited and some things you want to do become prohibitive due to the time and resources it takes to do them.

Everyone I know prefers the drop-in replacement method. That is why Yamaha designed their own SWP chip rather than use individual components that were already available.

My main point is that this isn't about missing or different hardware

Well - yes it is exactly that if you want to do a drop-in replacement because you can't do that if the hardware isn't the same.

- but more about how those bits and pieces are utilized in the respective products.

True - but the issue is that the bit and pieces are different so the utilization will be different.

However, adding another DSP effect (like the new YC rotating speaker) would be just like adding the VCM Mini Filter /etc that was done before.

LOL! If only it was that easy. The term 'effect' can be a misnomer because it is used to mean different things.

Some 'effects' are manipulations of what already exists. An example would be a delay effect. Nothing new really needs to be created to create a simpler delay effect - you just need to manipulate the signal that you are provided.

Other effects involve actually creating the signal that you need and also manipulating that signal. The rotating speaker effect is a good example of that. Although you may start with a base signal (or signals) you really need a much more complicated 'source signal' in order to model what a physical rotating Leslie actually does.

Something, somewhere, either hardware or software needs to gestate that starting point. A real rotating speaker involves both 'additive' and 'subtractive' components. For true duplication you would need to use a combination of FM (additive) and AWM2 (subtractive) elements and eat up quite a bit of resources just to get to the starting point you need. That is why a lot of that prep work is done in the SWP.

That means don't expect any drop-in replacement that is as good as the YCs series stuff unless they change the hardware itself or are willing to spend a lot of money on a 'near end of life' product.

Makes more sense to me for them to spend that 'lot of money' on the next generation.

FWIW... I think the stock Rotary effects on the Montage/MODX are very good.