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Saxophone Mono vs Sustain

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Michael Trigoboff
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The song I'm currently working on has a saxophone part. The saxophone Voice has Mono/Poly set to Mono, which is what I want since I don't want to be playing chords with the saxophone.

There's a problem, though. I like to use the sustain pedal while I'm playing the saxophone part. This works fine except when I want to hit a note repeatedly. If I'm holding the sustain pedal down when I do this, I get the first note, but then the key goes dead until I get off the sustain pedal.

I think I understand why this is (Mono means " one note at a time"), but it's not what I want. I would like to have the second key hit cancel the sustained first note, etc. In other words, I'd like to be able to hit the note repeatedly while holding the sustain pedal down, and have all of those notes play.

Is there a way I can do this?

 
Posted : 31/08/2014 7:55 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Not near a synth at the moment, but what you describe sounds like the impossible instrument. If it is mono, you can only play one note at a time, by definition. Using a sustain pedal does not change the fact that only one note can play at a time, it's a mono instrument.

I'll state the obvious, no monophonic instruments have (or need) a sustain pedal. Analog Synthesizers originally had no sustain pedal jacks, you didn't see one until piano emulation was first attempted, more than a decade after the original (analog) synths hit the market.

That said, the sustain pedal sends a channel message cc064 (Hold 1) that affects the AMPLITUDE ENVELOPE GENERATOR (AEG) such that it can maintain (or hold) the "Decay 2 Level". If the Decay 2 Level is any value other than 0, the sound will sustain indefinitely. For example, on the instrument where sustain pedal "belongs", the acoustic piano, Decay 2 Level is always 0, because, as we all know, piano sustain is not indefinite. The piano, being a percussion-family instrument, does eventually stop sustaining even if the pedal remains down - due to the loss of string momentum which is acted upon by gravity and friction. However, a bowed or blown instrument can be held indefinitely... Bowed instrument simply change direction of the bow, blown instruments can be manipulated with circular breathing techniques (neither have "sustain pedals")... But on a synth bowed and blown emulated instruments, typically are setup by programmers to "hold" indefinitely... Unless specifically programmed to behave differently i.e., spicato strings, fall offs, etc.

So in plain talk, the Sustain pedal does not disengage a felt damper (like on a piano) it simply takes the place of you holding down a key; (literally it is holding the key in place of your finger). And since you cannot retrigger a note already being held -when the instrument is monophonic you can trigger any other note, retriggering the current note can only be accomplished, normally, by lifting and retriggering the key (unless the Voice polyphonic).

Also in play in the behavior of any sound when it comes to repeated play would be the COMMON parameter called "KEY ASSIGN MODE" in a normal Voice and an individual KEY (Element) parameter in a Drum Kit Voice.

From the Motif XF Reference Manual.........

Key Assign Mode*
When this is set to “single,” double playback of the same note is prevented. This is useful when two or more instances of the same note are received nearly simultaneously, or without a corresponding note off message. To allow playback of each instance of the same note, set this to “multi.”

Settings: single, multi
single
When this is set to “single” and double playback of the same note are transmitted to the internal tone generator, the first note will be stopped then the next note will be sounded.
multi
When this is set to “multi” and double playback of the same note are transmitted to the internal tone generator, all the notes are sounded simultaneously.

..............

I cannot really predict if this will make the monophonic Voice play as YOU anticipate, there is no "correct" way for a monophonic instrument to behave with sustain pedals in the real world. Try playing with the COMMON parameter "Key Assign Mode" parameter on the saxophone Voice you have in mind.

Press [EDIT]
Press [COMMON EDIT]
Press [F1] GENERAL
Press [SF2] PLAY MODE

Typically, a woodwind Voice like saxophone, would have an AEG where "DECAY 2 LEVEL" would allow the sound to continue as long as the key was held (via your finger depressing a key, or the sustain pedal holding the note). This is so you could hold a note as long as necessary - key-on/key-off would be used, exclusively, to mimic blowing through the horn. In the majority of use cases this is sufficient to emulate a saxophone performance.

The KEY ASSIGN MODE parameter, set to "Single" or "Multi", will impact how the sound behaves when retriggered. If a note is being held when you retrigger the note, if the Voice is polyphonic, multiple notes are played the sound will overlap (as described in the Manual this is useful when describing drum instruments like cymbals and tambourines). You desire to retrigger a note while the sax is sounding, and you are working with a monophonic Voice. (don't think so) - not that it is impossible - on the VL engine the behavior of deadening a sax note via laying a virtual 'tongue' against the virtual 'reed' was actually programmable. However, with sampled based systems, I think you will need to find a solution to the articulation you want to create a different way (perhaps with a different controller than the sustain pedal).

Check the behavior for your particular saxophone Voice both in Mono and Poly modes, trying both Single and Multi trigger. See which combination works closer to how you are envisioning performing the Voice. "MONO/POLY" is the parameter just above the Key Assign Mode (not by accident - as these are used together to affect a specific response behavior.

I'm fairly confident, given the 8 oscillator engine in the XF that multiple behaviors can be programmed within a single program, as you may require. Because the XA CONTROL is designed for this purpose - getting more and varied articulations from within a single program. If you cannot get it as you desire, please provide a bit more information on which saxophone you are working with, and when I'm back in my studio on Thursday I'll take a look at creating a sax that can, when held, articulate as desired.

XA CONTROL + 8 Elements = a very powerful Voice architecture... And much to explore!

 
Posted : 01/09/2014 4:32 pm
Michael Trigoboff
Posts: 0
Honorable Member
Topic starter
 

The saxophone Voice I'm using is: PRE 5 010 Velo Growl Legato. It's included in my Mixing with Param With Voice = on, and Mono/Poly = poly.

I hit Vce. Edit -> Play Mode to check out the Key Assign Mode setting. It was already set to 'multi'.

Is there anything else I might be able to set so that I can hit repeated saxophone notes while holding down the sustain pedal?

 
Posted : 06/09/2014 6:51 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12303
 

Is there anything else I might be able to set so that I can hit repeated saxophone notes while holding down the sustain pedal?

No, as I mentioned, if the Voice is mono, you cannot play a note that is already held. Sustain Pedal is the same as holding a note down. Once a note is down, you cannot play it again until it is released, period.

 
Posted : 06/09/2014 7:49 pm
Michael Trigoboff
Posts: 0
Honorable Member
Topic starter
 

OK, I understand. Thanks.

 
Posted : 07/09/2014 1:30 am
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