I'm trying to split the keyboard to play a high pitched organ in my left hand (lower 2 octaves) and piano in my right hand for Tom Pettys "Don't Do Me Like That". The note shift limit of +24 prevents me from getting the left hand organ part up to the correct range. I was wondering why a limitation like that would be in place when a performance could be set up to play parts in 4 different areas on the keyboard at one time - seems you might want to pitch shift a part more than 24 semitones. What's the easiest workaround for something like this?

What you actually want to do is change the Keyboard Transpose so that an instrument sound is for a region sounds higher or lower than usual. You've been attempting this with NOTE SHIFT because it is what is available within the Performance. What you've missed is: you are actually in the wrong mode to accomplish your goal.

Explanation
The difference between "NOTE SHIFT" and "TRANSPOSE" as defined in the MOXF is what is at the root of your fundamental question. True, a PART can be NOTE SHIFTED up/down two octaves by semitones. NOTE SHIFT is a Tone Generator parameter and controls the receiving Part.

TRANSPOSE, while to the casual viewer does the same thing, is actually quite different as defined in the MOXF. TRANSPOSE is a Keyboard parameter and controls what is transmitted by the Keyboard. Your expectation to "play parts in 4 different areas on the keyboard at one time" does not fit in the scheme of a Performance which takes place on one basic MIDI channel.

To actually play in different regions of the keyboard suggests you should be using MASTER mode which is the only mode where you can transmit on as many as four separate MIDI Channels simultaneously. If the two Octaves of NOTE SHIFT is not enough, because you want to play a sound in an extremely different region of the keyboard, you might need to take a different tactic.

Clearly the two octave Note Shift range is designed for adjusting Parts for "Layering" (you rarely need to adjust Parts more than this when layering two sounds to play simultaneously) or "splitting" (you rarely need to adjust the right or left hand Part more than this when splitting two sounds to play at the same time on the single keybed).

What you are thinking about is setting up a keyboard with four separate transmitting regions such that any note range can be assigned to any of the regions. This is more the realm of the Keyboard Master control functions (transmit) than it is the synth Tone Engine (receive)... And naturally so.

In Performance Mode, since all four Parts are set on the same basic receive channel, TRANSPOSE affects all four Parts together, so you cannot use the Transpose function differently per Part, make sense? This means TRANSPOSING the keyboard in Performance mode will affect all four Parts, what you actually want is to address each Part with its own personal portion of the keyboard... As if you had four keyboards, instead of four tone generators.

Basically, if you want to play the high organ line from the lowest octave of keys you may have to combine the Tone Generator RECEIVE parameter "Note Shift" with the Master mode's Keyboard TRANSMIT parameter. That will give you up to 5 octaves of offset.

COPY your Performance to the PARTs of a MIXING using the "TEMPLATE" COPY routine
This will set the Parts on separate MIDI channels
Associate the Song/Pattern with a Master program using the Zone Switch function
Now you can address each of your individual sounds on its own MIDI channel because you can transmit on four MIDI channels at once. And use the +/-3 OCTAVE Transpose parameters in conjunction with the MIXING mode's +/-2 Octave Note Shift to accomplish your extreme range changes. If you need more than 5 octaves then you'll need to create a new Voice closer to the range you wish to play it. (No one is anticipating a piccolo that plays from the lowest octave of keys... It's a synth, true, but we are just saying it would be unusual) 🙂

It is quite okay to do the unusual but it is important to know when you are (doing the unusual), you ask "why" the "limitation", the real answer is because you are doing something unusual - it's not really a limitation because for its designed use it works quite fine. Doing the unusual is perfectly fine, too, and is to be encouraged, but the parameter you selected (NOTE SHIFT) to accomplish your goal was not designed for how you are trying to using it. That's all. What you are describing is actually solved by changing the "Transpose" function... But if you have four different Parts, and need 'four different keyboards' that can be transposed individually - well the only mode that the MOXF is four different keyboards (transmits on four Zones) is MASTER mode.

You thought you could accomplish this by changing the tone generator - but it's designed for layering and splitting in a more traditional fashion.
You actually want to change the Transpose parameter but are wishing there was a Transmit Transpose function in Performance for transmitting per Part. But there cannot be ...its one channel
A Performance is four Parts on a single Midi channel; a Performance is NOT four keyboards transmitting at once
Master mode when associated with a Mixing allows you to have four receiving Parts and four separate transmitting keyboard regions simultaneously and is the only combination of modes to accomplish what you describe.

Hope that helps.

While knowing the usual (and in my opinion overly complicated and unnecessary) workarounds (using Master Mode, editing the corresponding Voice in Voice Mode, editing and storing the Voice as a Mix Voice) for shifting one part of a Performance and/or Song/Patten mixing more than 24 semitones on Yamaha instruments, I have to say that I don't quite understand why this limitation hasn't been abandoned in almost 15 years of Motif/MO/MOX/MOXF life span. And NO, it is in NO WAY "unusual" to shift one part of a mixing for more than two octaves when working live with a good amount of splits. Most live keyboardists I know (and regardless of which keyboard brand they are playing) do that frequently instead of rarely!

There have been COUNTLESS complaints about that (Yamaha-exclusive) note shift limit over the years...unfortunately, Yamaha did not listen to the voices of these customers, although it might have been a minor change to the OS and easily introduced with one of the many firmware updates. Such a basic thing should be possible WITHOUT changing (and editing in different) modes!

Nevertheless, I like my Motif XF6 for its overall performance way more than Kronos, PC3K, Fantom etc.!

Regards, 🙂

Jo

Johannes wrote:

While knowing the usual (and in my opinion overly complicated and unnecessary) workarounds (using Master Mode, editing the corresponding Voice in Voice Mode, editing and storing the Voice as a Mix Voice) for shifting one part of a Performance and/or Song/Patten mixing more than 24 semitones on Yamaha instruments, I have to say that I don't quite understand why this limitation hasn't been abandoned in almost 15 years of Motif/MO/MOX/MOXF life span. And NO, it is in NO WAY "unusual" to shift one part of a mixing for more than two octaves when working live with a good amount of splits. Most live keyboardists I know (and regardless of which keyboard brand they are playing) do that frequently instead of rarely!

There have been COUNTLESS complaints about that (Yamaha-exclusive) note shift limit over the years...unfortunately, Yamaha did not listen to the voices of these customers, although it might have been a minor change to the OS and easily introduced with one of the many firmware updates. Such a basic thing should be possible WITHOUT changing (and editing in different) modes!

I don't believe it as simple a matter as you do. And I'm certain it is not a matter of not listening to customers. If you don't understand the point about receive (not the solution) versus transmit, I'll try to explain it better next time, my bad. You might just consider there are other reasons perhaps, just perhaps, that you are not considering... given the "15 years" of the same thing, huh, maybe? Thanks for sharing, though.

Nevertheless, I like my Motif XF6 for its overall performance way more than Kronos, PC3K, Fantom etc.!

Regards, 🙂

Jo

We agree with you here!!! 🙂

Bad Mister wrote:I don't believe it as simple a matter as you do. And I'm certain it is not a matter of not listening to customers. If you don't understand the point about receive (not the solution) versus transmit, I'll try to explain it better next time, my bad.

Hey Phil, thanks for answering! 🙂 But how can you know that I don't understand the difference between Note Shift (part of the receiving Tone Generator) and Transpose (transmitted by the keyboard)? Could you specifically explain to me why it should be technically possible to shift the Tone Generator's notes by ±24 semitones in Performance and Multi Mode, but NOT to shift them by e.g. ±48 or more? I never read a satisfying answer to that often raised question...

Bad Mister wrote:You might just consider there are other reasons perhaps, just perhaps, that you are not considering... given the "15 years" of the same thing, huh, maybe?

Again, I would like to know more about these reasons I am not considering! Please go into as much detail as you can! 😉

Regards, 🙂

Jo

The purpose of these forums is help you work towards accomplishing a goal. Any discussions about "why" or "how come..." actually go nowhere. And we agree, they wind up with unsatisfying results. Do you understand the method around what you see as a limitation? If yes, then my I've reached my goal in this discussion. 🙂

Not everything has a satisfying explanation, the methods around this 'piccolo-in-the-bottom-octave' conundrum are easily solved by making your own specially prepared piccolo Voice. True, it does not allow you to be lazy (obviously allowing unlimited note shifting would be a shortcut to this goal); yes, you do have to create a custom Voice... All that is true. But if you require a piccolo in the bottom octave (as an example) you probably should expect that it is not that "usual"... And since you certainly have all the tools you need to create that Voice, even though it will become complete nonsense when/if played outside of your limited note range, you can create just what you need. If it never made it to the top of the "to do" list in product updates probably should tell you something about its perceived importance as a crucial feature... given the obvious available workaround of creating your own piccolo that can play from the lowest octave.

Bad Mister wrote:If it never made it to the top of the "to do" list in product updates probably should tell you something about its perceived importance as a crucial feature.

With all due respect, but given the countless complaints about the Note Shift limitation all over the relevant communities (YOU should know that best, as you have been posting the above mentioned workarounds hundreds of times on Motifator), the perception/prioritizing list of the responsible department at Yamaha seems to be somehow limited/odd... 😉

From my perspective, no other drawback is being mentioned approximately as often as the 2 octave Note Shift limitation of the Motif and its derivatives. Besides all the posts on Motifator (you remember?), I give you an example from the Yamaha Europe Community: In a survey in 2010, about 32% of all OS Update suggestions concerned the unnecessary Note Shift limit ("unusual"/"nonsense", or rather a common wish?). BTW, another 20% concerned individual controller assignments per Song/Pattern... 😉

Regards, 🙂

Jo

A Google search of "Yamaha 24 semitone limitation" brought me here.
It's an outrageous and stupid limitation. The Korg Triton has similar Performance setup and it has a +-60 semitone parameter, as it should.

I have a standing weekly gig that requires me to learn and program many songs every week.
I am very sick and tired of this limitation when setting up performances. I should be able to play a low piano part with my right hand and a high organ part with my left.

I don't imagine we will ever see a firmware update to give us what we want and need.

The workaround is ridiculous. We should be able to hit Edit, Tone, and then have access to +- 60 or at least 48 semitones.
We're not "bending sound" with this paramter. Simply transmitting when a key is pressed on the keyboard. There's no good reason for this LIMITATION.