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Montage Waveform backing track just 'stops' midway through

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Colin
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I'm keenly seeking some advice as have been trying to solve this 'issue' now for a couple of days now:

I'm working on a song which uses the full first eight performace parts, one of which is a 'waveform backing track (part 7) which I trigger from the C1 key and a click track (part 8) which I trigger from key D1.

I'm finding that the backing track just stops playing without any warning after about 30secs or so...however that stop time seems to vary a bit (depending on how many keyboard keys that I'm depressing at any one time the time.

It seems as if it might be a 'memory/capacity full' type of issue because if I mute a couple of the other parts..then the backing track plays ok..right through until the end

I've attached a screenshot of the Montage screen so that u can see what I'm attempting to do here.

Any advice welcome..thanks

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 3:19 pm
Posts: 753
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one of which is a 'waveform backing track (part 7) which I trigger from the C1 key

Often the devil is in the details. Can you tell us what method you are using to do that triggering?

Are you using a regular AWM2/FMkk-X part or a drum part?

How long is the waveform you are trying to play?

It could also be a 'polyphony' issue - how many notes are being played at the same time in all of your parts when the problem occurs?

When you want the sound to continue after you release the key a common method is to use a drum part and assign one key, e.t. your C1 key, as the trigger.

But you would also then set "RECEIVE NOTE OFF" to OFF and set the keys envelope DECAY 2 TIME to HOLD as Bad Mister describes in this reply in an old thread
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/sampling-on-montage-how-do-i-assign-a-sample-to-a-key-for-triggering#reply-8598

Drum and percussion sounds do not require a finger holding the key down to play the entire audio clip, they can be set to "RECEIVE NOTE OFF" = OFF this allows them to be triggered and play without you having to continue to hold a key down. There is however, a "silence detector" that will ultimately turn off or close the gate on the note, so it does not use polyphony indefinitely.

The drum key envelope can be set so that DECAY 2 TIME is set to HOLD, useful for playing back long audio clips.

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 5:32 pm
Colin
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That all sounds familiar..as in what I was told by you guys previously for getting backing tracks:

So I am using a init drum part to capture the waveform (about 4 mins long and 50.9Mg size)
Receive Note ='off'
Group =1
Decay 2 =Hold
Element EQ=Boost 12

I think it usually stops when I am playing a triad chord (right hand) plus single bass note (Left hand)

what's the 'workaround if its a poly issue?

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 6:00 pm
Posts: 753
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what's the 'workaround if its a poly issue?

LOL! Bart Simpson might say "don't play so many notes!"

Sorry - couldn't resist that opening you provided.

Seriously - I don't think it is a poly issue if you are only playing 4 notes. Though it seems odd that you have 8 parts but are only sounding 4 notes. Also the waveform wouldn't stop playing it would just stop sounding so as soon as polyphony was available it would be sounding again.

Did you program a 'stop' key as Bad Mister suggested in a previous reply to your 'Imported WAV Audio Volume' thread?
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-wav-audio-volume#reply-119653

If so could you have accidentally hit the stop key?

You may have to try to replicate the issue on demand. That could be hard if it takes at least 30 seconds before the problem occurs.

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 6:19 pm
Colin
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Did you program a 'stop' key as Bad Mister suggested in a previous reply to your 'Imported WAV Audio Volume' thread?
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/montage-wav-audio-volume#reply-119653

If so could you have accidentally hit the stop key?

well yes...I'm using C#1 as a stop key but no...I'm definately not accidently striking that as it's a way down the bottom

I'm using eight parts because I'm layering various sounds...i ncluding two different organ sounds, a bass, a pad..plus a click and the backing track ,,,. all of which=c add up to 8 parts

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 7:47 pm
Posts: 753
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I'm using C#1 as a stop key but no...I'm definately not accidently striking that as it's a way down the bottom

Didn't really think so but when you are stuck for possibilities you need to mention everything to rule things out.

Same reason I ask about the parts. The number of parts doesn't affect polyphony - just the number of simultaneous notes being played. So if you aren't even using some parts then you would need some REALLY active arpeggios to even get near the polyphony limit.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 8:00 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
Illustrious Member
 

Not knowing the Parts being used - I have to make guesses. You're using 8 Parts and one of them is your Drum Part for playing your 50MB sample. I'm going to count that Part as using one element of polyphony. The other Parts can use up to 8 elements of polyphony assuming they're all AWM2 (which I'll assume for now). That makes worst case 7*8+1 per single key pressed. That's 57 units of polyphony consumed for one note. 113 units for two notes (not counting the drum Part twice here -- assuming only a single drum key triggers a sample and not more than one key). 169 units (over the limit) for 3 notes.

The only other clue I have is that an organ is used for at least one of the Parts. Organs that have drawbar control will most likely utilize all 8 elements. It's almost a given that this kind of Part will consume the maximum polyphony a single Part can. Not sure about the remaining 6 Parts (other than organ and your Drum kit with the sample).

If you happen to use a Drum Part for actual drums (not just your sample - but say a drum kit played by an arpeggio) then this single Part could possibly consume 16 units of polyphony at once if all 16 notes allowed in an arpeggio are set to play at the same time.

For starters, I would probably look at the organ Part and try replacing it with a sampled organ that uses fewer elements at once (no drawbar -- meaning no slider control).

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 9:00 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

Jason,

Based on your maths, I'm thinking polophony might well be the cause here.

I am trying once again to upload a screenshot of my montage screen so u can see my parts.

In case it doesn't work, fyi..I'm currently using 3 of my 8 parts for tone organs...one is called 'Full Monty' (covers the whole keyboard range) and the other two are 'Jazz 2nd perc +C3' (one part covering the lower end and the other the higher end)

As an earlier experiment, I did try combining the two Jazz organ parts into 1 single part ...hoping that might solve the issue...but it didn't work

Welcome your futher thoughts/suggestions

Attached files

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 9:26 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

try replacing it with a sampled organ

Can you also please explain what u mean about using a 'sampled' organ... how to do this ?

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 9:36 pm
Posts: 753
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I'm currently using 3 of my 8 parts for tone organs...one is called 'Full Monty' (covers the whole keyboard range) and the other two are 'Jazz 2nd perc +C3' (one part covering the lower end and the other the higher end)

Monty has 2 parts that each use 5 elements - that's a poly of 10 per key pressed - so 4 keys gives 40.

Each Jazz 2nd is 1 part using 6 elements so that is either 6 or 12 per key - so 24 or 48 if both parts play together.

So poly is 40 + 24 or 40 + 48 just for those 3 parts.

Each part in those perfs has an arpeggio assigned and if you are using them they will eat up more poly.

Math alone won't solve it - it's still going to come down to finding a way to reproduce the problem.

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 9:59 pm
Colin
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Topic starter
 

It seems like I'm just gonna have to slim down the sounds a bit:

To date I've been using Jazz 2nd (organ) for the first verse of my song and then adding on Monty (another organ) for further verses.

If I cut out (i.e mute) Jazz 2nd from after the 1st verse, the backing track seems to play right through without stopping so I guess that's the only practical workaround.

I did view a youtube video today about how utilize all 16 montage parts at once using additional midi channels https://youtu.be/8QuSWr-logc.....but I'm assuming that won't help the polophony issue??

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 10:28 pm
Posts: 753
Prominent Member
 

To date I've been using Jazz 2nd (organ) for the first verse of my song and then adding on Monty (another organ) for further verses.

If I cut out (i.e mute) Jazz 2nd from after the 1st verse, the backing track seems to play right through without stopping so I guess that's the only practical workaround.

You can use scenes to enable/disable the two organs. In scene 1 have Keyboard Control ON for Jazz 2nd and OFF for Monty. In scene 2 swap it - have Keyboard Control OFF for Jazz 2nd and ON for Monty.

Now you just need to push the Scene 2 button after the 1st verse when you want to bring on Monty and push the Scene 1 button to go back to where you started.

I did view a youtube video today about how utilize all 16 montage parts at once using additional midi channels https://youtu.be/8QuSWr-logc.....but I'm assuming that won't help the polophony issue??

Hmmm - so your question is whether adding twice as much polyphony will help your polophony issue? Do you really need any help answering that one?

 
Posted : 31/03/2023 11:01 pm
Jason
Posts: 7889
Illustrious Member
 

Lots of organs allow for you to volume adjust a combination of elements (samples) to produce the sound. This gives flexibility but is costly. You may end up with a different character of organ sound, but I'd replace "Full Monty" (2 Parts) with an organ Part that uses less simultaneous elements.

When I said "sampled organ" - what I meant was that it would sound the same without a lot of customization since the organ stops are fixed (the sound sampled) and no other sounds are combined but are instead inside a single sample. I don't know which factory organ(s) use the least amount of elements. I'd have to step through them and look. "Full Monty" is at the expensive (in terms of elements use) side of the scale.

This is where one of those Performance books would come in handy. Having some reference for element utilization would give something easy to search for in a PDF.

BTW: alternatively there are lots of FM organs. If one of those worked for you then you could possible save a bundle of resources splitting polyphony between the FM-X and AWM2 engines which each get their own separate pools. Montage has 128 simultaneous elements worth of polyphony for AWM2 and also 128 units of polyphony for the FM-X side.

 
Posted : 01/04/2023 3:44 am
Colin
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Topic starter
 

Thanks for that info Jason

Just for my education...what's the difference between muting a part versus using 'keyboard control off' ?

I have a Montage Data List PDF manual but I don't think that shows the constituent number of elements within each part

presume that's a different list...do you have a link to a pdf that I can source?

 
Posted : 01/04/2023 5:43 am
Antony
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Estimable Member
 

"Lowered Volume" Elements/Parts still use Polyphony.

They are being "played" at Zero Volume.

Regards saving Polyphony for Organs...

There are some Samples that are single recordings of an Organ with multiple Drawbars opened e.g. 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. So, if your Organ sound is normally drawbars 1,2,3 & 4 open... use that.

It means you can't control/operate those drawbars, but it's a moot point if you never intended to anyway.

In this example, you'd be using only 1 count of Polyphony, instead of 4 counts that would be incurred if you had a unique Element for each of Drawbars 1, 2, 3 and 4. That's a 75% discount. Significant.

Not all available samples are used in Factory performances. It's worth your while to browse through Samples and find ones that have already done the heavy lifting e.g. "Draws 1234".

I don't have my MODX open right now, but from memory, there are various "prefabricated" DrawBar setting Samples... all "Odd", all "Even" etc.

There are many other "Polyphony Saving" Samples (not just organs) you can use. It's just a case of knowing they are there.

FM-X, particularly with Organs, is a great way to save Polyphony AND retain some control. You only use 1 count of Polyphony, per Part, per Key, even though there are 8 FM Operators per Part.

So FM Parts are 1/8th of the Polyphony Cost of a "fully loaded" AWM2 Part (all 8 Elements in use)..

 
Posted : 01/04/2023 6:42 am
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