never mind.
I got fed up, wiped it, started another performance, and all working now.

Care to share your setup with others who might wish to use Reaper. I think we would all appreciate that (if you have the time). Thanks in advance!

Hi BM!
I'll share the entire working setup once I get it entirely working 🙂 otherwise it's still a bit of trial and error.
I am still experiencing this Super Knob problem, I thought I resolved it but it must have been my imagination.
.

Setup in Summary:

MONTAGE Performance:
* Part 1 - Drums - (Routing to Main L*R)
* Parts 2 ->5 - Sound X (Routing to USB 1/2)
* Parts 6 -> 8 - Sound Y (Routing to USB 2/3)

DAW - (Reaper)
* Track 1 - Drums (Midi Input/output Channel 1)
* Track 2 - Sound X (Audio Track USB 1/2)
* Track 3 - Sound Y (Audio Track USB 2/3)

All sounds play fine. I can mute and avoid doubling etc, so I'm all happy with that.
But the problem for me now is that the Super Knob only affects Part 1!
If I select any other part, no parameters change whatsoever while manipulating the Super Knob.

Could you help me understand why?
Please let me know what other information you need from me to help with this.

Appreciate your time and help

If the Super Knob is only affecting Part 1 it is because you only have it echoing back to the Montage on a single channel.
The reason it is called "Super" is partially due to its role as a controller that addresses multiple Parts across multiple MIDI Channels.

Again, I've never used Reaper so I can only tell you in general how to fix it. Also you don't tell us what your Super Knob is set to send. (Or which Quick Setup template you are using).

Here's what we mean. Go to [UTILITY] > touch "Settings" > "MIDI I/O" in the lower right corner you have a setting for the "Super Knob CC"
If this is "Off" the Super Knob sends System Exclusive data which can be documented in your DAW on MIDI channel 1.
If this is set a value like 95, for example, the Super knob will generate cc 95 to your DAW.

You mention you have setup your audio routing, which we assume are going to audio tracks.
You don't mention your MIDI routing, or MIDI track and naturally the Super Knob is a MIDI setting.

If you are going to record MIDI it is imperative that your MIDI routing supports exactly what you are sending Out. This means, if you are sending on multiple MIDI channels, the data must be echoed back to Montage on multiple MIDI channels.

If your "SUPER KNOB CC" = Off meaning the knob is generating System Exclusive data, you may need to ensure that your DAW can accept and echo this data back to the Montage on the same channel the data arrives on... You may need to activate Sysex messages in your preferences.

If your "SUPER KNOB CC" = cc95 (for example) means cc95 needs to dealt with by the DAW. Most DAW are set to handle cc by default.

In both cases, the MIDI Track should be set to receive and echo back All channels. You typically, only need one MIDI track in your DAW - set it to receive All channels and to output All channels.

In Cubase the Track's MIDI OUT would be set to "ANY", rather than a single number. Meaning it will be able to receive literally any incoming MIDI channel and echo that signal back Out on the same channel it originated. Once you begin to understand that unlike, perhaps, previous synthesizers you may have owned, the Montage can at times be transmitting on multiple Midi channels simultaneously.

This is not so hard to get, if you have drums (arp) in a Performance Part, naturally, you want that data going out on its own MIDI Channel, separate from the Parts you are playing directly. The Super Knob allows you to generate messages to multiple Parts, and as you quickly notice ... It can easily be doing different things to different Parts. It might be turning one Part up, while turning another down, while not affecting another at all. It might be panning one thing, while increasing the reverb send on another Part.... Etc. clearly the Super Knob is generating messages that mean different things to different Parts. And this is done across more than a single channel. To document what's happening means you must record on multiple channels.

The tricky thing for most audio-oriented people is this: it only requires one MIDI track to record all -6 MIDI channels
This is true because of MIDI's channel system which keeps data discreet. You can separate data by channel when you need to edit it, but otherwise it can happily exist on one track. Every MIDI Note-on event, every MIDI controller event, has a MIDI channel as apart of its message. You need a track to receive and echo all channels!

Therefore, you want the MIDI track responsible for documenting Montage to accept all incoming channels (most DAWs can do this naturally) but you want to ensure it does NOT re-channelized the data on the way out. Set that MIDI track so that it Outputs incoming MIDI respecting the original incoming channel. Make sense?

Hi,

I've taken the DAW out of the equation, ie, turned off the Laptop.
I have placed Montage into Standalone mode
Same thing.

I think maybe it's the way I'm looking at things:

Whatever performance I choose first, the Super Knob will work for that performance (whether it be a 1 or 4 part performance).
It is when I append another performance to it, say from Part 5 on wards, the SuperKnob does not have any mappings to that appended performance. It only will affect the first initially selected performance parts of 1-> 4.

I just thought I could select the first or (base part if you will) of a performance, and the Super Knob mappings would apply accordingly.
Does what I'm saying make sense? So I've been treating a Performance as a selection of "Tracks" essentially

Should it work that way?

[**Edit/Update - In the meantime, I'm just picking one performance(sound) at a time, and recording it. I'm finding this quite a quick workflow at the moment for me]
Thanks
Daniel

I just thought I could select the first or (base part if you will) of a performance, and the Super Knob mappings would apply accordingly.
Does what I'm saying make sense? So I've been treating a Performance as a selection of "Tracks" essentially

Should it work that way?

What you are saying is understood, but it does not work this way. I'll explain. This is a great question because this is an important concept to understand.

Montage is literally, like playing multiple Motif XF's. When you have a multi Part Performance, you are addressing it in a manner where each Part is individually addressable by controllers.

Now in a situation where you connected via MIDI to multiple MIDI devices and you moved a foot controller sending Control Change (cc) 007 volume, all the devices would respond together to increase or decrease. You would address them all because cc007 is a channel-wide message, all devices will go to the same value. You might be able to set a receive switch Off and not control one of the Parts. But when all four Parts are on the same MIDI Channel you either control all or you opt out on some.

Montage has a system where each Part is like its own channel. You can address multiple channels via KBD CTRL.
To get individual scaleable control over each Part, Yamaha implemented a Control Matrix around the Super Knob.

What the Super Knob is about is it enables control of parameters, like volume, to be addressed separately and intelligently to each Part. And in such a manner that each Part can have a unique response to the movement of a single control.

Affecting volumes is assigned within each Part. Then that assignment is linked to the Super Knob.

For our example, say an Assignable Knob in each of the Parts is set to control the Part Volume. (Each Part has its own 8 Assignable Knobs.) I can then link the Part's AssignKnob with the movement of one of the Super Knob's 8 Knobs.

The Super Knob, on the upper Common/Audio level of editing, automatically controls 8 Assign Knobs of its own. Initially they all move up and down together. But as you'll see you can change this. You can set them of them to move in the opposite direction, or to virtually any movement, to any specific range.

You can then program a link between the AssignKnob in Part 1 with a Super Knob controlled Knob's movement. To keep it simple say we have the Super Knob's first Assign Knob going from 0-127, while the second one goes 127-0. Opposite.

Now any Part's knob that was set to do volume that I wish to change in a positive direction, 0-127, I would link to Super Knob Assign 1, and any Part that I wish to turn down, 127-0, I'd link to Super Knob's Assign Knob 2 (which is going in the opposite direct). Now with the simple gesture of turning the Super Knob from minimum to maximum, I'm able to turn some Parts up, and turn other Parts down, with a single gesture. (the Super Knob can be controlled with an FC7 pedal plugged into Foot Controller 2 jack).

Rather than every Part doing the same thing to a controller message, you can have each Part do different things in response to a single controller's movement.

And on the assignment end (the Part programming), you can scale just "how much" control you are assigning to the Super Knob. And here is where you can define, to a dizzying degree, how a controller is applied to the Part. You can scale it - it does not even have to be in just one direction. You can completely design and customize the movement of the parameter value.

This is powerful. You can see the advantage that this provides you with usual (cc) assignments to things like volume, pan, effect send amounts, cutoff, resonance, portamento, and A few more. The Super Knob and its Assign Knob links open the door to an even bigger area of parameters to control. There are some 250 parameters within the synth architecture.

This is why when you move the Super Knob, dozens of things can be changing simultaneously - the Controller Matrix is like a big modular synth, where you design a control movement scheme and patch that control over a specific parameter destination. Movements can be paired or set off in opposite directions, or assigned to the result of some other movement.

Multi-dimensional change is possible, adjusting EQ, reverb Time, filters, the AEG all simultaneously can really sound like you are moving the "listener's position" around in a large acoustic chamber.

So when you ADD (+) a new Part to a Performance, it automatically brings along all of its individual Part Control Assignments. But it is new to the Performance you just added it to. So therefore it has no links established to the Super Knob Assign Knobs of its new Home (pun intended).

Those assignments it had in its old Home, do not apply here. Could not apply here - if you get that the Part links would not make sense. It now occupies a completely different location, the assignment may not even apply.
new Home new associations

To be clear, remember every Part has its own set of 8 Assignable Knobs... They are a part of the PART 🙂
The links to a Super Knob are established within the current Performance.

They will have to make sense along with what is already patched. So it is now your responsibility to link the unique relationships with this new Part to the Super Knob. It is always a choice with this system, you can choose to link a knob assignment with the Super Knob or not. It's a choice.

Every Part can have 16 Control Sets. A Control Set includes a Source (controller), a Destination (parameter), and a set of parameters that design its application (Curve, Polarity, Ratio). So all the work done within the synth Part is brought along when place or copy It to a new Performance Home, but naturally you now must choose which of these Assignments you wish to link to Super Knob movement. You'll need to determine what makes sense.

Remember each Assign Knob linked to the Super Knob, can move independently in response to the gesture. And the old assignments would be random in this new Performance. Controller routing can be much like a snowflake - each unique.

BM covered this well, just highlighting:

There are two levels of assignable knobs. One level is the Performance level. I sometimes call these "global" knobs. They are always being controlled by the superknob and this link is "hard coded" and cannot be broken. The superknob always controls these performance-level (global) knobs.

To "see" these knobs, press:

1) [PERFORMANCE] (HOME)
2) Touchscreen (TS): "Motion Control" -> "Super Knob"
You will see a screen of knobs with the lower (green) and upper (blue) limits of each performance level ("global") knobs 1-8. When the lower limit is less than the upper limit, the performance-level assignable knob will spin in the same direction as the superknob. When the lower limit is greater than the upper limit, the assignable knob will spin in the opposite direction as the superknob.
Tip: The superknob position number is also here in the lower-right. This is useful for knowing exactly what the value (position) of the superknob is.

There is no way to make these knobs stop being controlled by the superknob - which is a rule.

These 8 performance level knobs can be set to control part-level knobs. To get to this screen to make the association, press

a) [PERFORMANCE] (HOME)
b) [EDIT] (note: hit the edit button directly after the home button, no touchscreen/etc inbetween)
c) TS: "Control" -> "Control Assign"

This is where the performance level knobs 1-8 can connect to any of the part-level assignable knobs. The part-level assignable knobs means any of the 16 parts (Part 1-16) and each part itself has the choice of its own 8 assignable knobs - totaling 16x8 = 128 possible part-level knobs. Superknob can also control other things as destinations and does not have to be assigned to anything (no assignment) or could also be assigned to a "global parameter" and not a part-level knob.

There's a second way to get to the same menu to assign destinations to the performance level assignable knobs ("global" assignable knobs) . Instead of following "a) b) c)" above, follow "1) and 2)" above, then press the [EDIT] button from the performance level assignable knob screen which sets the knob ranges. This will bring you to the same screen to set the knob destinations.

All this does is tie a string around a performance level knob and a part level knob. The second step would be to assign a final destination to the part level assignable knob. This was all covered well.

Some rehash, but wanted to mostly cover the performance level assignable knobs ("global" assignable knobs) and how to get to the screens to adjust those settings.

Hi BM/Jason, Appreciate the detail and insight, very helpful and in depth!

BM - Today I found a workaround to achieve what I want, .i.e recording audio to DAW and maintaining Super Knob associations for each performance,

I created a Live Set! I add each performance to it's own slot in the Live Set. Route each performance out it's own channel (USB 1/2, USB 3/4 and so on) into corresponding track on DAW.

eg
Performance 1(Drums) in the Live Set -> Montage OUTPUT USB 1/2 -> DAW Track 1 INPUT USB 1/2
Performance 2 (Cathedral Organ) in the LIve Set -> Montage OUTPUT USB 3/4 -> DAW Track 2 INPUT USB 3/4
Performance 3 (Guitar) in the Live Set -> Montage OUTPUT USB 5/6 -> DAW Track 3 INPUT USB 5/6.

So a few wins for me working this way:
1) Visually, when I open up a live set, it contains the "tracks" (performances) 1 through to 16.
2) I get to maintain all original Super Knob associations for each performance!
3) Recalling all the performances in one go, by just selecting the Live Set.

? Hey if this is working for you, we're happy!
But no "workaround" is necessary to record the Super Knob movement, just so you know.

How you proceed when recording will depend on what you wish to record.

Hi BM,

I simply just wanted to be able to record the performances with their original Super Knob assignment, to a DAW. (with the traditional track 1 to track 16 type of layout)
My original method (by appending sounds into a single performance) I couldn't do it. Couldn't figure out how to quickly link the Super Knob to the different part subsets so as to essentially "recall" their native Super Knob assignment.

So for example,I appended the following into one Performance, (I'm not in front of the Montage at the moment so the part ranges are just for example purposes)
Drums (Part 1)
Cathedral Organ (Part 2-6)
Guitar (Parts 7-9)

And then the dream was to be able to pick drums (Part 1), play it with its original Super Knob assignment
Pick the organ (part 2), Play it with it's original Super Knob assignment
Pick the guitar (part 7), play it with it's original Super Knob assignment.
Essentially to be able to switch back and forth between sounds while not having to link or unlink Super Knob assignments. Or to at least be able to do it within minimal interaction with the the menus/options.

The method I described in my previous post, of using Live set, is actually a quick and easy way that ticks all the boxes for me and allows me to record easily to a DAW, quickly select the sound, with each sound still retaining it's original Super Knob assignment.

I apologise if I have missed something in your reply.
I'm not trying to be stubborn, I just find this works for me as I am still in my infancy with this keyboard, and appreciate the beast that is Montage

rgds
Daniel

Those that know the system understand why your method is working for you. They also understand why what you were previously trying to do was not working. If you want to understand why your previous attempts were not working - the further detail explains that and also gives you the tools to create new performances using parts that were formerly controlled by superknob within their preset performance - but are no longer controlled by superknob when you move the part to a new performance.

That you're not concerned with the details is perfectly fine - as you are OK with finding a solution which meets your end goal and do not yet see a use case for your original attempt.

Only read below if interested in a high-level summary of what's going on using an analogy.

Think of performances as houses with a mailing address.

Superknob is the mail truck that delivers the mail.

The superknob settings and assignable knob destinations is some admin at the post office who keeps track of addresses.

Furniture in the house are the people that live there.

Super knob turns, and mail is delivered to the correct house because the delivery address for a certain person matches the house.

In this scenario, if you decide to evict a person from their house, forcing a move to a new house (moving a part from one performance to another) - the mail that was previously being delivered to their old house (PERFORMANCE) is no longer valid. Montage does not automatically establish a forwarding address to direct the mail to the new house (superknob link to the previous part is not carried, it's severed) so you have to manually update the superknob settings (tell the post office admin).

When you arrange performances into a live set, you're not moving people out of their house. A live set is more like, in this analogy, an alternate street address that works. Some streets have multiple names like "The George Washington Freeway" which can also be called "Interstate 50". So really, nothing moved - it's just a different way for the post office to deliver the mail to the same resulting address. All the same people are arranged in the house the same way, so superknob does not change associations by live sets.

What is important is that you've found something that works for you.

But let me explain why your original issue arose in the first place:

So for example,I appended the following into one Performance, (I'm not in front of the Montage at the moment so the part ranges are just for example purposes)
Drums (Part 1)
Cathedral Organ (Part 2-6)
Guitar (Parts 7-9)

Your attempt to put these items in one Performance will not work. The reason is a basic misunderstanding of how Multi Part Performances work.

If your goal is to use the Montage "with the traditional track 1 to track 16 type of layout", then you would start with "INIT Multi/GM" template where each Part, 1-16, is on a separate MIDI Channel, 1-16. And the Montage is 16 Part multi-timbral. 16 Single Parts, one per channel.

"Multi Part" Performances are those where you are going to play multiple Parts from the keyboard simultaneously. They are constructed using the Montage architecture starting with Part 1. There can, by definition, be only one Multi Part Performance active on Montage at a time.

By this I mean, say you start with a two Part Factory Performance, and using "Performance Merge" you add two more Parts to it... The result is one Multi Part Performance made up of four Parts. If you then "Merge" another two Part Performance to this, you still wind up with one Multi Part Performance with six Parts. All Parts in a Performance share the upper COMMON set of parameters (this is where the Super Knob is applied).

Each Performance can be made up of 16 Parts. Each Part has 8 Assignable Knobs. At the top level of the architecture is the Super Knob and its 8 Assignable Knobs. Each Part has a unique relationship with its own eight Knobs. And that relationship is part of the Part's programming. In its original Performance Home, the programmer may have linked certain parameters with the Super Knob. It is important to realize that this relationship is unique to that Performance... If you then MERGE a Part to a new Performance Home, you must establish new links to the Super Knob in its new Home.

There can only be one Multi Part Performance active on Montage at a time. A Multi Part Performance that you are going to play live, starts with Part 1 and can consist of a maximum of eight Parts. A Part is defined as being a part of the Multi Part entity when the KBD CTRL icon is active.

The Super Knob's role in all of this is to act as a controller that can be applied to all Parts under KBD CTRL simultaneously - it supercedes the channel - and is a way you can independently control several Parts with a single gesture. The data that it outputs is documented in your external sequencer on MIDI channel 1. (The Super Knob, it should additionally be mentioned, can be applied to any Single Part, as well, but you must select the Part for it to be active).

When you "merge" Parts, while the Part AssignKnob data is brought along, those newly merged Parts have no established relationship with the Super Knob in this new Performance (Home).

It is not practical to sequence using multiple MULTI PART Performances in a single MIDI Project. A practical way is to build your MIDI data using Single Parts... When you are ready to render audio from any of the musical tracks, print the audio by triggering any sound you desire.

If, for example, you wish to use the 5-Part "Cathedral" organ Performance in your DAW Performance, because it occupies 5 Parts (3 AWM2 + 2 FM-X) that use the Super Knob to morph from a simple tone to a very complex "all stops out" tone, performing this requires the full attention of your resources... Meaning it needs to be recalled as a "featured" sound.

First question I would ask myself is: do I need to record my performance on this sound as MIDI or couldn't I just record it as audio.
If I decide there's a benefit to recording it as audio, I would proceed by doing a mixdown of all other Montage Parts (this is where the Freeze function found in today's pro DAWs come in handy - this allows you render your other Midi tracks that are using the Montage hardware as a temporary audio file, now you free your Montage hardware to be a Cathedral organ worthy of the full control and nuance that only Montage can deliver.

I think once the concept of the Multi Part Performance is clear, and the role of the Super Knob as a Common control that affects multiple Parts is fully appreciated, then and only then does the head scratching stop about how to capture things in your DAW.

It is not practical to sequence using multiple MULTI PART Performances in a single MIDI Project. A practical way is to build your MIDI data using Single Parts

That's the kicker. So it sounds like I can't enjoy the full experience of multiple multipart performances while trying to record them to midi?
Surely there are other people out there who want to record multiple sounds to multiple tracks for various reasons. When writing or improvising, I'd like to be able to hear the full performance with all its parts, because that can influence or inspire you while playing recording.

By doing the multi/gm option, that means it turns a multi part performance into 1 part. Part 1 more often than not being the fundamental but yet bland part of the performance, and needs to be combined with the rest of it's parts 2 -> 4 to reproduce the "amazing" version of the sound.

My MIDI goals are this. For it to all be worthwhile, for me, number 3 must be satisfied:
1 Record Multi Part Performances, (each performance routed to a DAW Midi track)
2 click play on the DAW and have all tracks play back simultaneously via midi triggering the multipart performance as a multipart performance (not a multi/gm single part version of it)

I know 1 can be done, I know 2 can be done.
But number 3:
3 switch between/chose performances that I want assigned to a particular track.
I remember there was a template for the motif es that I could load into a DAW and it would allow you to select the sound via the DAW (bank/program names in human readable format, not just numbers)
The more I think about what I am really after now, is the ability do a quick bank/program selection via the DAW. This combined with 1 and 2 would satisfy my requirements.

Thanks in advance for your time.
Daniel

That's the kicker. So it sounds like I can't enjoy the full experience of multiple multipart performances while trying to record them to midi?
Surely there are other people out there who want to record multiple sounds to multiple tracks for various reasons. When writing or improvising, I'd like to be able to hear the full performance with all its parts, because that can influence or inspire you while playing recording.

And this can be done. Surely there are people out there doing this right now!

What you and perhaps the other people are not getting is just how to accomplish this. (One reason we have a website). Let's just start with how the Montage works now, then with how you might have to adjust your workflow to take advantage of the obvious advantages of Montage.

MIDI is based on a 16 channel system. Does this mean all MIDI projects must be limited to just 16 Tracks? Not at all. (You've probably done this) using soft synth plug-ins.
The Montage is 16 Part multi-timbral...meaning you can play it, via MIDI, at maximum with 16 Parts sounding at once.

To get more Parts you need to open a second instance of the Montage...Same as you would with a soft synth. Granted not a lot of people have experience working this way with external hardware, but most pro DAWs these days do allow for including external hardware within the program.

Cubase Pro 8, for example, allows such a routing scenario. You can create the music you require by utilizing multiple instances of your hardware. This requires recording MIDI > using the Freeze function (which takes your MIDI data, renders temporary audio files from that data) it then mutes your MIDI tracks but keeps them in a folder. You can then retask your Montage hardware for its next task.

This gives you the ultimate level of "undo", while you are working on your next set of MIDI data, your previously recorded data is playing back from these temporary audio files. If you wish to edit the original data, you click un-Freeze, your MIDI data is there and editable, you can opt to keep the original Freeze files or you can discard them and render your newly edited data new Freeze files. To fully use the Montage, it's working with MIDI and audio, the workflow is a combination of MIDI and audio.

The advantages of working with MIDI include changing your mind about sounds and/or performing accuracy, editing, notation, etc., etc.,
The advantage of the External Instrument setup gives you the best of both worlds. (Those who remember or used mLAN recognize the MIDI and audio workflow). It gives you the best of both worlds. You data remains MIDI for as long as you desire. Your audio routing is unparalleled in any hardware synth I know of... 32 audio bus outputs, boutique grade effects, and flexibility to match its sound quality.

Setting up the Montage using Steinberg's EXTERNAL INSTRUMENT feature gives you every advantage you would have in using soft synths. This includes the aforementioned Freeze, Export Audio Mixdown and even processing your Montage's returning audio with Plugin Effects... All handled with care with Cubase's advanced delay compensation.

Okay so you know the bulk of your requirements can be met... The way you worked 13 years ago with ES, has evolved. And you may need to make slight adjustments to how you work. That's a fact, I don't see any reason why you can't accomplish what you wish to do.

The EXTERNAL INSTRUMENT and EXTERNAL EFFECTS setups in Cubase date back into the late 1990's and have been used in countless projects including movie scoring, television, album projects, etc. VST and VSTi are original concepts introduced by Steinberg in 1996. They allow the use of external hardware in the computer environment. Many users equate VST with only being effect plug-ins and synth plug-ins made and running in the computer, but from the very beginning the EXTERNAL routing component has always been fundamental to the concept! Virtual Studio Technology.

The only difference between your synth and/or effects being generated on the computer and using this external VST routing setup, is that you use less CPU muscle from your computer, and any rendering of real audio must be done in real time! Other than that it truly allows a Multi Part engine like the Montage to exist in the computer-based environment, without compromising much at all. (Fact is, this routing existed for your old Motif ES).

You CAN enjoy the full experience of multi Part Performances... You just have to learn a new way to accomplish the goal.

For example, a Multi Part Montage Performance is always anchored from Part 1. Fight that fact if you wish, it will not change the way Montage works and would lead to frustration, not for any other reason than not having read and understood how it works.

You would record the MultiPart Performance "Cathedral" by playing it starting from Part 1 thru Part 5. This would allow you to use the Montage Super Knob and the ability to dynamically change the sound with all the nuance and Motion Control of the Montage system. Each Multi Part Performance you wish to use might require a separate instance of the Montage External Instrument... Conceptually the same as using multiple instances of a soft synth plug-in.

Record... Then on playback Freeze the data. Now you have another Montage, rinse and repeat, as often as necessary!