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It just arrived. Wow!!

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My CP4 just arrived and I want to state that I have never heard a non-acoustic keyboard of any kind or expense sound as great or the keyboard itself feeling so close to my Yamaha C7. The layers and splits are so easy to use and all the voices to me, sorry to say, sound better than on the XF8. What I especially like is how clear and punchy the base is in the split mode. Turn up the split volume, turn down the layer and/or main volumes and turn up the main volume of the keyboard. Your base player is standing right next to you.

FYI, sold the XF8 for the CP4 in 15 minutes on Craigslist. Plan to buy the Tyros5 76 for the second keyboard and sequencing.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 
Posted : 31/10/2014 9:30 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
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I've been enjoying mine for nearly two weeks now. The thing I love about it the most is the action. I'm happy with the acoustic pianos (though I wish there was more variety ... would it really be that bad to put a Steinway in there?)

I'm a Rhodes owner since 1977, and sampled my Rhodes and those are still my favorite Rhodes samples (because I got just what I wanted -- surprise!) The CP4 Rhodes pianos are great, but I get the impression that the same tech voiced all the pianos to his particular taste, so they all sound more alike than a random sample of Rhodes, and all with a midrange honkiness I don't hear in my own Rhodes or a number of others. Regardless, the samples are well-done, the preamps are sweet, and the dynamics are killer: Yamaha really nailed it in that regard (an improvement on Scarbee, otherwise IMHO the best Rhodes sample set.)

I'll be using my CP4 beneath a Nord Electro 2, and between the two I'll get the Rhodes sounds I want. These two boards make a perfect fit, each being strongest where the other is weakest, and actions for both being ideal for what they're best at.

I was disappointed, though, to learn that I can't control stereo vibrato depth using the Mod wheel (or Wurlitzer tremolo depth). A shame, since those are the most commonly desired front-panel controls. Only the rate can be controlled (for R&T effects, but not for preamps), and the range is such that it's useless as a live control: nudge it a tiny bit and you go from slow to too fast.

While it's great that the CP4 has two expression pedal inputs, it's sad that the application of those is so limited.

However, the CP4 is a great playable instrument, with a nice simplified set of user controls. I definitely like the 3 "part" faders, both for internal control and also in master keyboard mode (I often use the Layer volume fader to control a softsynth's volume.)

And yeah, the action. I like it. It feels a lot more like a piano than any stage piano I've played. The only digital I liked better overall was the AvantGrand N3, but that's not a fair comparison!

 
Posted : 18/11/2014 9:21 pm
Bad Mister
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I've been enjoying mine for nearly two weeks now. The thing I love about it the most is the action. I'm happy with the acoustic pianos (though I wish there was more variety ... would it really be that bad to put a Steinway in there?)

Yes, it would (be a bad thing) 🙂

The Rhodes (RdI and RdII) are unique recreations via Spectral Component Modeling (a bit more to it then just audio sampling). The 'midrange honkiness' in the Rhodes, as you must know, is authentic to the original beast. And is why there were several revisions of the instrument '71, '73, '75, '78 and finally the Dyno-(My-Piano) retrofit.. that once and for all cleared the mid-range honk and improved the overall tone of the Rhodes. The beautiful thing about the modeling components here in the CP4 is you can swap the Pre-Amps... And customize the result as you see fit. I think the engineers walked a very tight line between authentic and making ways to improve the sound available. On the original CP1, the Wurli Models were originally designed to accurately reproduce the very small dynamic range of the original instrument. But so few of us who remember are still around... We heard from many folks that the Wurlis were not dynamic... Which was true, the originals were not that dynamic. But accuracy here was not appreciated. So an update was made to "improve" this. (We still get phone calls about the XF about why the (Mello)Tron strings end after 8 seconds... 🙂 I believe this is a similar thing. I've tried (successfully I might add) to recreate classic Rhodes sounds matching what was done on many recordings from the 70s and early 80s using the modeling functions.

In the future we hope to have some programming tips on the CP4 Stage... Please see my buddy Blake Angelos' two videos that dig into customizing the sounds.

I was disappointed, though, to learn that I can't control stereo vibrato depth using the Mod wheel (or Wurlitzer tremolo depth). A shame, since those are the most commonly desired front-panel controls. Only the rate can be controlled (for R&T effects, but not for preamps), and the range is such that it's useless as a live control: nudge it a tiny bit and you go from slow to too fast.

While it's great that the CP4 has two expression pedal inputs, it's sad that the application of those is so limited.

Sorry, I'm in a hotel room far from my CP4 Stage at this moment, but these complaints don't sound right. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are talking about. I think we will have to revisit this _ I have only so much bandwidth for button pushes while not sitting at the instrument. But these disappointments just don't sound right. On a real Wurli there was no speed control (at all) and if you are looking in the Insertion Effect, don't, the Wurlitzer Depth control should be built-in the Pre-Amp of the model. The real thing did not have controllable insertion effects, nor did it have a ModWheel. But if I recall the MW does vary the Depth on the Wurli (I could be mistaken and thinking of something else) ... Have to get back to you on this one.

I can see an article is necessary on programming those pedals! :). Coming soon...

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 11:05 am
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I too have noticed that you cannot use the mod wheel to assign any of the auto-pan parameters (depth or rate) that are part of the rhodes pre-amp models. I've been just pressing the pre-amp model insertion effect button on and off to activate the stereo auto-pan that is included with the several Rhodes pre-amp models.

I wish we were able to control the depth or rate of the auto pan (included in the pre-amp models) with the mod wheel. Hopefully Phil will shine some light on this problem.

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 5:36 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
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Thanks for your response! Please take your time looking into this, it's not critical.

Yes, it would (be a bad thing) 🙂

Chuckle. Don't get me wrong; I love Yamaha pianos. They're my favorites, despite the fact that I have a Steinway M in my living room. (I got it really cheap ...)

We still get phone calls about the XF about why the (Mello)Tron strings end after 8 seconds... 🙂

LOL, no kidding.

The Rhodes (RdI and RdII) are unique recreations via Spectral Component Modeling (a bit more to it then just audio sampling). The 'midrange honkiness' in the Rhodes, as you must know, is authentic to the original beast.

Absolutely -- and on rereading I see I wasn't clear. I meant to say that while it's very common, it's not universal. And of course I did know that the Rhodes were modeled but had forgotten (so the models are at least close enough for me to forget that they weren't samples). Anyway, what I'm hearing (and oversimplifying as midrange honkiness) is clearly just a common aspect of all the models. It's pretty close to the George Duke tone, which shouldn't be taken as any kind of insult. 😉 Clearly, a lot of loving attention went into those sounds, and we thank you for them!

Regarding using Mod wheel to control vibrato, I hope there's something I'm missing. All of the Rhodes and Wurli voice defaults keep mod wheel as pitch modulation (ugh), and none of the preamps or effects allow mod depth to be controlled by anything but a MIDI CC (and not CC#1). See the data list to verify that.

Unless I'm missing something, the options are the following:

* All of the epiano preamp insert effects -- all have bass as CC#1. I would have expected setting MW=EffA(+) to adjust bass, but it doesn't. None of these FX has a dot in the Ctrl column for any parameters, so no FC control on them at all. (Note: I won't be using an expression pedal anyway.)

* R&T Auto Pan and Tremolo: CC#1 is LFO speed. Setting MW=EffA(+) causes mod wheel to control the rate, though not particularly usefully (it's a bit touchy since the range is wide). Also, doing this doesn't disengage MW from pitch modulation as it does for some other effects, but that can be done in the Part -> Play Mode menu.

Personally, I'd have much preferred that CC#1 be Depth rather than Rate, but it's probably too late to change CC#'s. Am I correct that MW always modulates whatever's assigned to CC#1? (That would make sense and be consistent with the documentation.)

Frankly, I'd like to see more options for assigning MW and foot controllers in general, but I admit that when I thought about the UI revisions it would require, I realized that it would add a bit more complexity to the UI than one might want in a relatively simple keyboard like the CP4. I do have an idea for how it could be done without too much complication, though. Let me know if you're interested.

Thanks again for your reply!

 
Posted : 19/11/2014 5:42 pm
Bad Mister
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Am I correct that MW always modulates whatever's assigned to CC#1? (That would make sense and be consistent with the documentation.)

I believe that is true statement throughout all of MIDI-land. By definition, Modulation Wheel is cc001. Always. What that does is always programmable on the tone generator side of things. It (MW) has no fixed function in MIDI.

 
Posted : 20/11/2014 10:51 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
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Right, CC#1 is defined by the MIDI spec as mod wheel. But that doesn't prevent some keyboard from playing games internally. For example, on my MR76, a number of different voice or effect parameters can be assigned to respond to MW, regardless of their CC#. My guess is that they respond to both CC#1 and their original CC#, but I never tried it with an external controller (having only one keyboard with a mod wheel until recently.)

Regardless, what you say is the simplest, sanest interpretation, and I'm happy to hear it applies to the CP4. Thanks for confirming.

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 4:12 am
Bad Mister
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Sorry I don't know what an MR76 is or how it plays "games". We're serious here 🙂

Even if you assign a function within a synth to respond to MW, you are assigning the parameter function to respond to cc001, because a MW always sends cc001 OUT via MIDI. It cannot send anything else but cc001. Even if you use the MW to pan a sound left and right, the MW is sending cc001 - you have set the tone generator to interpret that message as PAN. The MW is not suddenly sending cc010, if you get my meaning.

And if what you describe is a "playing games", that "game" is exactly how it works in your CP4 Stage... any number of different Voice parameters can be assigned to the MW - but parameters in the CP4 Stage do not have cc#'s. The parameters can be set to *respond* to cc numbers.

Controllers can have cc# - parameters do not have numbers - parameters are destinations and can be set to respond to cc#. If you do not assign a Controller to them, you can usually change the parameter setting directly or assign a Low Frequency Oscillator to move the parameter setting for you.

A Controller sends either cc# or has a dedicated message like Pitch Bend and Aftertouch - these are similar to cc messages but these two have their own category of MIDI coded message.

MW sends cc#001 and this does nothing without setting a parameter for it to control. So when you move the MW and something happens - and this is true on any keyboard) - it must have been assigned within that specific program to do what it is doing. Nothing is fixed to the modulation wheel. If it is controlling vibrato (PMD) that means that this has been assigned within the current program.

PB sends a unique MIDI command called Pitch Bender (En), it is fixed to send Pitch Bend and will always send it... whether or not a tone generator responds to it, and by how much, is totally programmable. Moving the PB on a layered sound can bend one PART one distance and the second PART a different distance. How? Because the response is programmed at the individual Voice level. PB sends 16,384 units from -8192 ~ 0 ~ 8191 how far a Part is shifted is a parameter of the receiving device, not the PB wheel. It always sends the range of numbers starting a rest (0) and going toward the maximum value 8191 or 8192 steps away. That distance could bend the pitch a semi-tone, or several octaves. It depends on the PART

A PAN knob controller sends cc#010 it is fixed to send PAN and will always send cc010... if the tone generator does anything else, it is the tone generator using cc010 message to directly control that specific parameter.
A FC (Foot Controller) pedal can be freely assigned to send almost any cc#.

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 8:42 am
Jeff
 Jeff
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Thanks. It seems that on the CP4, you can't change the CC# for any parameters, so whatever is assigned to CC#1 is the only thing you can control using mod wheel.

Therefore, no way to use mod wheel to control vibrato depth, unfortunately.

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 3:52 pm
Bad Mister
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It seems that on the CP4, you can't change the CC# for any parameters, so whatever is assigned to CC#1 is the only thing you can control using mod wheel.

Therefore, no way to use mod wheel to control vibrato depth, unfortunately.

? I'm sorry, I must not be understanding you, at all.

Let me just say, for the record that if you want to control the physical model of the Wurlitzer PRE-AMP that is where you have a DEPTH setting for the famous Wurli tremolo (often called vibrato). It is a setting from 0-10 for the Depth. That depth is not assignable to any external controller.

If you would rather do something like vary the Modulation Depth for Pitch (vibrato), for Timbre (wah-wah) and/or for Amplitude (tremolo), you simply have to do it with an LFO and assign it so that the MW controls the Depth. This most certainly can be done! Fortunately, you have these two methods. Let me be clear:

When you select the Wurlitzer 69 or 77 as your starting point in building a PERFORMANCE - you automatically select the PRE-AMP that is characteristic of the piano or vintage piano being modeled (this is programmable). Those "Pre-Amps" have built-in the famous Wurli Tremolo Depth control.
If you would rather assign a MW (there was not assignable MW controller on a real Wurli) then simply do the following:

Press [EDIT]
Select 02: PART parameters
Select 01: PLAY MODE
Cursor Down to the screen where you can bias the MW to Pitch, Filter and/or Amplitude:

MWPMod _ MWFMod _ MWAMod

If you want the Mod Wheel to add vibrato (Pitch Modulation) set the amount here - it will bias the MW to control the modulation depth
If you want the Mod Wheel to add filter (wah-wah) set the amount under MWFMod.
And if you are looking to control the depth of the tremolo use MWAMod.
(See page 20 in the Reference Manual for details).

If you don't like what is assigned by default - change it - by all means! I do that routinely on each PERFORMANCE. I don't like my PB wheel doing pitch bend on a sound I would never pitch bend, same with Pitch Modulation... but I also recognize that this is my personal preference. And as long as I can customize it, I'm okay with it.

Please try this. There is a way to use the Mod Wheel to control vibrato depth - I believe you are talking about the parameter in the PRE-AMP (physical model)... true, this part of the modeled pre-amp is controllable via a controller assignment. It is a select a value and then toggle it On/Off. However, you can apply Vibrato Depth, Filter Depth and Amplitude Depth via the MW - as described above.

Hope that helps.

 
Posted : 21/11/2014 5:03 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
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Thanks, that was worth a try! However, I have three issues with it.

First, while it allows an attempt at recreating the Wurlie tremolo, it doesn't address Rhodes stereo vibrato.

Second, it doesn't sound much like Wurlie tremolo. Try it, play some music, compare it with the Wurlie trem, and you'll see in an instant. Two possible reasons why; the waveform might be different (I suspect so), and see next point below.

Third: The way the LFO works. Based on my experiments, there isn't a single LFO, but an LFO per note, and (some of) these controls don't set the LFO directly, but rather, add to the LFO parameters programmed for the underlying voice. Furthermore, the underlying voice in this case seems to have keyboard added to LFO rate, oddly. The LFO goes faster for higher notes, I think. The LFO doesn't seem triggered by note-on, though: a note can come in at any phase of the LFO. Yet it also doesn't seem to be "free running" either; I can't synchronize hitting a note with the top of the filter. That could be clumsiness on my part, though. I'm a better programmer than player. 😉

On experimenting with it at low rates, it seems to me that there's an independent LFO for each note. Furthermore, the LFO is not triggered per note (that is, the LFO doesn't come in at the same phase each time I hit a particular note). But they're clearly independent per note, and with a slightly different frequency for different notes. For example, using the 77Wr trem voice (all defaults but turn off the effects), with the following:

LFOSpeed -45
LFOPmod -64 (just in case; 0 sounds the same)
LFODelay -64 (again, just in case; 0 sounds the same)
MWPMod 0
MWFMod 0 (the default)
MWAMod 80

Push the mod wheel all the way up. Play two notes at exactly the same time. (I play two notes a whole note apart with one finger to minimize errors, as mentioned above I'm a bit ham-fisted as a player.) Do this a number of times and compare the results. They're different! If there was a single LFO (or multiple but synchronized LFOs), the only difference would be the phase of the LFO when the notes come in, but the differences are much larger than that.

Here's what I hear. Sometimes, the result is just what we'd expect. But other times, it sounds a bit like a slow trill between the two notes, as though the two LFOs were 180 degrees out of phase. And everything in between.

Finally, when I play a very low note and a very high note at the same time, it seems to me that I hear the high note amp oscillating faster than the low one. However, that's what I was expecting to hear, and we all know how expectations color results, so I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Maybe later I'll record it and take a look. I wonder if I have or can find software that shows an FFT graphed in time (which is a bit of a trick, but it's a trick I know I've seen done.) That would pretty clearly show the LFO rates for the two fundamentals (or whatever partial is loudest in the instrument.)

I wish I'd started a new thread for this. I do really like the CP4!

And thanks again for your responses. It's really great to have the ear of someone who really knows what's going on under the covers.

 
Posted : 22/11/2014 3:56 pm
Bad Mister
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First, while it allows an attempt at recreating the Wurlie tremolo, it doesn't address Rhodes stereo vibrato.

The Rhodes Suitcase's "stereo vibrato" was, in actual fact, an AUTO PAN. For those that don't remember or were not around. On a Rhodes Suitcase the keyboard sat atop an amp/speaker block that contained four 12" speakers. Two faced out toward the audience and two played to your chins... when the "Vibrato" knob was pulled out, you got this wonderful LEFT-RIGHT-LEFT-RIGHT movement between the pair of speakers facing one direction. And this is definitely taken care of in the CP4 Stage INSERTION EFFECTs. The Auto Pan TYPE was developed specifically for this Rhodes Suitcase function.

You can add the so called Rhodes "stereo vibrato" to any of the Rhodes Voices as follows: (Please try)

Here's my quick step-by-step guide:
Press [SHIFT] + [ENTER] to execute a Quick Reset
Press the [E. PIANO 1] button
Then [+1/YES] to select the following VOICE: 04: 78Rd II

This is the CP4 Stage's version of the Rhodes (circa 19780 when they had significantly improved the pre-amp, the neoprene-rubber hammer action and they improved the overall sound of the pre-amp in the instrument. Just FYI: on this particular starting point "INSERT A" is the physical model of the 1978 Rhodes PreAmp, while INSERT B is set to be a VCM 501 EQ. I'll elect to change the "INSERT B" from an EQ to recreate the AUTO PAN function of the Rhodes Suitcase model.

Press and hold the PART EFFECT (INSERT) switch for two seconds to take the shortcut directly to the PART parameter that assigns INSERTION EFFECT B to the currently selected VOICE.
Move the CURSOR LEFT to the "Ctg" (Category) and turn the DATA WHEEL counterclockwise...
Select "AUTO PAN" - it is in the T&R
(Tremelo & Rotary) Category of Insertion Types.

Actually the very first Preset for the AUTO PAN Insertion Effect is the configuration of the "Electric Piano" - which is specifically designed to mimic the so called "stereo vibrato" of the Rhodes Suitcase from back in the day. If you wish you can move the cursor Right to highlight the current "Electric Piano" Preset and then use the DOWN CURSOR to gain access and tweak the Preset parameters as you desire.

Second, it doesn't sound much like Wurlie tremolo. Try it, play some music, compare it with the Wurlie trem, and you'll see in an instant. Two possible reasons why; the waveform might be different (I suspect so), and see next point below.

No, the Amplitude Modulation will not sound as much like the Wurli as the actually modeled Tremelo within the PRE-AMP (where you can set the DEPTH 0.0~10.0) If you program with some care you should be able to get a decent result using AMod - but if you OVER apply, sure it can get very weird - agreed. But don't do that!!! 🙂

I have tried tweaking the Wurli's and it sounds exactly like my Wurli here. But then again, I'm using the PRE-AMP's Tremolo... Because you want to control the Depth with the MW (again something the Wurli did not do) you must use the Amplitude Modulation Depth applied by the Mod Wheel (this has been done in emulative synthesizers since the beginning of synth-time) It is what it is. No, it does not sound as good as applying the Tremolo Depth via the PRE-AMP's modeled version. But it can certainly sound decent.

I recommend the PRE-AMP's instead. Not sure what you actually gain by adjusting it via the MW. But that is the trade-off. Also in order to get the weirdness you mention I had to increase the DEPTH fairly significantly. On many of the parameters you will find that halfway is a sort of normal maximum and values above that do a kind of over-the-top (feedback type) Law of Diminishing Returns type function. For example, on items like velocity sensitivity, 0 means no sensitivity to velocity. While +32 is maximum linear sensitivity - at +32 for each unit INPUT you get one unit OUTPUT or linear response. However, if you were to set Velocity Sensitivity to +63, thinking you had the most natural curve, you would find that this is not the case... every value above +33 changes the response of the soft strike... such that by the time you are at +63 only an extremely hard strike causes any sound - this allows for cross-fading. When offsetting values or when increasing DEPTH - it should always be done by ear (if you are not going to read the parameter value list) - do not assume that "all-the-way" is the maximum you want. Sometimes the maximum you want is found halfway, and "all-the-way" does some kind of feedback or crossfade or weird trilling of the modulation.

On your third (speculation/observation) we can only say - when you recall a VOICE in the CP4 Stage, you do inherit some programming already done, no doubt. In a Motif, or MOXF when you recall a Waveform and build your VOICE up from there, you can set many more things about that entity. Here what is initially recalled when you build a sound, has much more baggage coming with it! 🙂 Remember you program in PERFORMANCE mode on the CP4 Stage. So you are storing OFFSETS to already pre-programmed parameters. This makes the CP4 Stage quick and easy, yet without compromising flexibility.

In many cases you are applying OFFSETs to the parameters as they already exist within the VOICE. On a synthesizer like the Motif XF-series for example, you get to set many of the parameters that you are inheriting here on the CP4. The CP4 Stage concept to make available parameters that you can adjust (offset) to your needs. These are have been selected by the designers with great care and setup for this instrument. For example, when you recall a Tine electric piano model (Rd I or Rd II, i.e., the Rhodes) you are initially recalling a set of parameters - for example, a specific Pre-Amp. You may notice the available parameters for a PART change by what Voice you place in that PART at the moment. Each Piano and Vintage Piano recalls its own set of tweakable parameters.

The tweakable parameters with +/- settings from 0 are allowing you to add to or subtract from the existing (or inherited) setting. This is a function of the Modeling engine. It "COMPONENT" Modeling because you can OFFSET these blocks - you can swap PRE-AMPs, for example. Rather than giving the player every single parameter - the CP4 Stage is for the Player's Player... If you want a modeling piano where you can open and close the lid (yikes) or tune each key (double yikes), perhaps the CP4 Stage is not the one for you. But we have found that most piano players consider opening the lid on a Grand Piano akin to turning it ON (who plays with the lid closed?), and that when you need to tune every key, most piano players pick up a telephone, not a tuning wrench. This all has to do with concept and targeting the customer.

When a Reed piano model (Wr69 or Wr77) is recalled you will notice a different set of parameters are available - appropriate for Modeling that particular vintage (electric) piano.

Even the acoustic pianos (CFX, CFIIS, S6) recall a specific "pre-amp" - in the case of an acoustic piano the pre-amp can be thought of as the characteristics you could adjust on a boutique microphone's pre-amp... you will find very accurate, high-quality 2-band and 3-band EQs available - these are extremely musical EQs. You can even swap the recalled Pre-amp, with any of the others. This is where the real synthesis takes place on the CP4 Stage. We are constantly bombarded with questions about a new keyboard... when you had a Rhodes or Wurli and you wanted a new sound you learned how to program your stomp boxes... the Insertion Effects here are your stomp boxes - and then some!!!

Whether the LFOs are individual (I don't think that is the case) but they may, indeed, be set to function to trigger at KEY ON or (more likely) that KEY ON RESET is not ON. To my ear, they behave normally until you go beyond a certain DEPTH point - at which time they can seem random and of course, with KEY ON RESET not being ON, you can cause the random trilling that you are describing by setting the DEPTH to an extremely high value and then simply not releasing your notes simultaneously you'll wind up with some pretty wild sounding modulation. I don't hear anything abnormal if you don't raise the DEPTH beyond the halfway point... at which point I'm sure there is some type of wild 'feedback' and interaction. You are taking great pains to play the notes simultaneously but are pretty certainly releasing them at separate times. Then when you retrigger ... well...

Can you get wild trilling like behavior if you program at the extremes , you bet! Same as if you take the LFO up into the audible range - weird sounds can happen... if it weren't an instrument attempting to synthesize sounds, I'd worry. But I think it is okay! 🙂

I'm not over concerned about this - but encourage you to do whatever testing you desire.
I believe that if you want the most Wurli-like Tremolo - it is built-into the model; you can find it as the last parameter in the Wurli PRE-AMP (INSERTION EFFECT).
I believe that if you want the Rhodes "stereo vibrato" which was actually better described by an AUTO PAN - it, too, is built-into the INSERTION EFFECT Types - ready for easy recall.

If you would rather take a synth LFO and apply it with a MW to a Wurli Voice, you can make it sound normal or you can make it "Wurli-in-Outer-Space" if you apply too much Depth, of course. There was no MW on a Wurli and there was no synthesizer LFO applying Amplitude Modulation to a Waveform ... although you can use these functions to emulate the Wurli - I find the ones modeled by the engineers of the CP4 Stage to be far more rewarding (and I owned several Rhodes and a Wurli). I also don't feel like I need to get an FFT analysis to figure out why my programming methods do not give the best results. Let us know how that works out!

 
Posted : 22/11/2014 6:25 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
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First, while it allows an attempt at recreating the Wurlie tremolo, it doesn't address Rhodes stereo vibrato

Sorry, what I should have said is "while it allows an attempt at recreating the Wurlie tremolo with MW control of depth, it doesn't address Rhodes stereo vibrato with MW control of depth."

Anyway, we seem to have lost sight of what I was asking in the first place.

See the "Vibrato" knob in the picture below? I want a control like that for Wurlie. The CP4 has a great Wurlie vibrato/tremolo, and I know how to apply it, but only rate can be controlled by MW (unless I'm missing something). That's sad, because the Wurlie had a depth control but not a rate control.

See the "intensity" control in the picture below? I want a control like that for Rhodes. The CP4 has a great imitation of the Rhodes "stereo vibrato", but only rate can be controlled by MW. Of course, the Rhodes has both rate and depth controls, but as it turns out, I find I can have presets with the rates I need, but want a control for depth.

It's unfortunate that the CP4 doesn't allow me to do either of the above. The workarounds you offered don't work, and I explained the results carefully so you'd understand why they don't work.

Regarding the trilling, I hear it at much lower depths; I have it at 25 now and I can hear it clearly. I'm playing E and F just above Middle C, with the same finger (and releasing both at the same time, though that's not scientific. I'll have to try later using MIDI.) In any case, it's clear as day that each note has independent LFO to some extent, but it might be that the reason they're not synchronized is due what you mentioned: KEY ON or KEY ON RESET. In any case, using amplitude modulation on this voice on the CP4 doesn't sound anything like a tremolo (amplitude modulation) that would be applied by a preamp, affecting all notes the same. It does something quite different, which might be lovely in the right context. I tend to like effects like that in general; it's just not what I'm looking for in a Wurlie tremolo. Also, I'm convinced that it's not related to pushing a parameter past its intuitive range, though I do understand how that can happen, and how the results can differ dramatically on digital versus analog gear.

Thanks for this:

Press and hold the PART EFFECT (INSERT) switch for two seconds to take the shortcut

I hadn't noticed that in the manual yet. Nice feature!

 
Posted : 26/11/2014 3:43 am
Bad Mister
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It is true, the Wurli had a Depth Control, not a Rate Control. The CP4 Stage has a Depth Control in the "model", not a Rate Control. When you are building a PART and you select the physical model of the "Wr69" or "Wr77" as your "PRE-AMP" component, it features the "DEPTH" parameter. By selecting the Wurli's PRE-AMP, the set of parameters for the Wurli Pre-Amplifier appear. (If you select the "Rd I" or "Rd II" Pre-Amps, naturally, the appropriate parameters for that pre-amplifier appear. And these are specifically modeled after the originals (as pictured in your post).

Select the Wurli Pre-Amps - you get the DEPTH Control for Tremolo (which is incorrectly called "Vibrato" on both products, by the way) but we know what we are talking about
Select the Rd I and II Pre-Amps - you get VOLUME, TREBLE, BASS, SPEED and DEPTH (Intensity) - just as you pictured.

Your disappointment, to be clear, is based on the fact that you want to assign control of the DEPTH to the Modulation Wheel. You cannot. You *can*, however, set these very parameters directly within the model. We could argue back and forth about how you need that as a "real time" control. But at the end of the day, I think we'd agree that it is really a: "it would a 'nice-to-do' type of thing".

However, I'm going to speculate that it is not that big of a deal, all things being considered - as you CAN pre-set the Depth exactly as you desire. Which, as I recall in the 70's, is just what one did. You found the DEPTH setting you liked (ahead of time) and pulled it ON (carefully) so as not to move the Depth setting which you pre-set before the gig (at least on the Rhodes). I can recall many a Wurli with a chalk/grease pencil mark on the "sweetspot" Depth setting. I don't recall ever adjusting the Depth as a real time parameter - but your request is duly noted. Thank you.

You can navigate to the physical model of the Wurli Pre-Amps as follows (they are found, in this case, via the INSERTION EFFECTs):

[SHIFT] + [ENTER] = Quick Reset
Select what ever Voice you want to build from (remember you can place the Pre-Amp of any of the modeled (piano/vintage) piano instruments on any other instrument).
Press and hold [INSERT EFFECT A] to take the shortcut to the INSERTION EFFECT parameters

Select the PRE = "Wr69" or "Wr77" "PRE" (AMP)
The parameters that will appear now when you CURSOR RIGHT to "PRESET Basic" and then DOWN will be the parameters associated with that vintage pianos pre-amplifier
This is where you will find the signature Wurlitzer Vibrato(sic) DEPTH (0.0~10.0)

Likewise if you select the PRE (AMP) = "71Rd I", "73Rd I", "75Rd I" or "78Rd II" as the INSERTION EFFECT, the parameters that accompany this selection will include the signature Rhodes Vibrato(sic) both SPEED and DEPTH (Intensity).

So to be clear - they are there, your complaint is about assigning control of Depth to the Mod Wheel (...just like it was on a real Wurli or Rhodes 🙂 Kiddin' (of course there were no assignable controllers back then).

We hear you. You cannot assign control of this particular component of the model, but you can (pre)set them and then activate/deactivate them as you perform... (exactly like you did on the real thing) which I think was the concept.

Agreed the default PMod Depth of 10 that seems to be the default for everything - is not my choice but I reprogram that. (My guess... so many people expect actual Pitch Modulation (technical name for vibrato) to be assigned to the MW. Again it is personal taste- I never apply vibrato (real "vibrato") to my piano/electric piano) - but I recognize this is my choice... and from your tone, not your first choice either. 🙂

Hope that clarifies

Please customize, particularly, if you do not like the default setting. Perhaps in the future some update may allow for assignment of physical controllers to control the Pre-amplifier parameters can be implemented. But we'll simply have to wait and see.

As to the "trilling" of the LFO - I'm not sure what is causing that _ Although we've had keyboards where each Key did have its own individual adjustments, I really don't think that is in use here. I let you know what I can find out.

 
Posted : 26/11/2014 8:58 pm
Jeff
 Jeff
Posts: 0
Active Member
 

Yup, we're in agreement/understanding. Thanks.

Just FYI, I have this feature on another keyboard and have found it very useful. But yeah, it's a feature request, not a bug per se.

Regarding the so-called trilling, I'm convinced that the LFOs of different notes aren't synchronized, at least, on that Wurlie patch. I haven't tried the experiment on other voices; my guess is that it could vary. If I get around to that, I'll let you know.

Regarding PM defaults, I agree with you. My personal default is no vibrato on instruments that don't have vibrato, but I understand using a simple default, and I'm free to program it how I want on all my patches. As I do!

Thanks again for your attention!

 
Posted : 03/12/2014 9:58 pm
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