(yamaha always overlooks in all keyboards ) is damper samples after key strike.

The acoustic pianos in the MONTAGE/MODX, Motif XS/XF, MOXF, S90 XS/S70 XS to name just a few, all feature “Key Off” which is designed to be triggered upon the release of the key. Used in sounds like the acoustic piano, electric tine pianos, harpsichord, clavinets, and evening some guitar sounds... This is part of the XA CONTROL (Expanded Articulation) feature in the above mentioned products. Please look that up for more details.

But the problem in yamaha this release sample's volume does not diminish if you continiously pressing the key.

In the Yamaha AWM2 System the “Key Off” sample is triggered only when you actually release the key or release the sustain pedal, and they decay according to how you program them to decay — being addressed by Element parameters, this articulation is fully programmable... If you have such damper samples you should set them up exactly as they are in the factory acoustic pianos. Seems you are working under some major misinformation - at least about how Yamaha AWM2 envelopes work.

If you need more help, let us know.

I'm fairly certain the OP is aware of the system, mechanism, and option for key-off samples. What's being communicated here has been flagged before. It's an issue in the current XA control for its intended purpose lacks realism. Even in factory supplied piano preset Performances. The easiest compromise, in my opinion, is to ignore velocity and fix key-off samples as a lower volume. I believe you can also use motion control and element level scaling using envelope follower as the input. But this isn't fool-proof necessarily.

Here's a thread where (one of my posts) the behavior is summarized: https://www.yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/calling-all-piano-player-audiophiles-help#reply-82673

The "decay" the OP is mentioning is of the key-on sample. After a long decay - and everything is "quiet" - you can hear a loud "pop!" noise as you lift the keys. The key-off sample uses the velocity of the note-on event to set the key-off volume. So this is broken when you play fff, hold the notes until they decay to near silence, then lift your hand off the keys. The key-off noise ends up being fff and does not scale to what would be the natural key-off sound under "real world" conditions.

For this situation, the handling of factory preset Performances with key-off is broken or, more positively, unrealistically loud when note-on velocities have been high. This is why I believe the easiest compromise is to set the PART's (when key-off is a PART on its own, like PART 4 of CFX Concert) velocity depth to 0 then velocity offset to the 80-90 range (or any fixed value that works for the player) to stop key off from assuming the key-on velocity (no velocity sensitivity) and offset to the desired single velocity.

Just for my understanding: isn’t it actually correct to set the release samples to a fixed velocity? Why would releasing the keys be affected by the velocity? I believe when I let go the keys on a real piano after a long time, the sound of the mechanics is still loud, or?

Just for my understanding: isn’t it actually correct to set the release samples to a fixed velocity? Why would releasing the keys be affected by the velocity? I believe when I let go the keys on a real piano after a long time, the sound of the mechanics is still loud, or?

I've noticed the issue myself with the preset piano performances (like CFX Concert).

The key-off sample is intended to recreate the sound of the dampers hitting the strings when you release a note, or the sustain pedal. But on a real piano, this sound will correspond to how loud the string is still vibrating at the time... hit a fff note and release it right away, the damper sound will be "louder" (though relative to the actual string vibration, quieter than that). Hit a fff note and let it decay down to near silence, then release, and the damper sound will be correspondingly quieter.

The problem with the AWM2 implementation of this is the original velocity of the struck note determines the loudness of the key-off sample, but there's no decay applied, so if you hold a fff note until it's just about silent, then release the note(s)/sustain pedal, you get an unnaturally loud damper sound. In one track I did where I ended with a sustained piano chord, I ended up either muting that part/element, or reducing its level, to make it sound better.

Ideally, a combination of the current envelope EG level of the note and release velocity would be used to determine the volume of the damper sound, but AWM2 doesn't support this (one element/part's envelope controlling another part/element's volume, nor does it support release velocity). Perhaps an envelope follower could be used as a workaround. Perhaps motion sequencing could be used as a workaround as well... program this element's level to drop over time roughly equivalent to the string decay.

Just for my understanding: isn’t it actually correct to set the release samples to a fixed velocity? Why would releasing the keys be affected by the velocity? I believe when I let go the keys on a real piano after a long time, the sound of the mechanics is still loud, or?

Exactly, you can overthink things like Key Off noise and that’s exactly the point. Ideally, you want to add just enough to add a hint — like an exotic spice, you add just enough to have a place in the flavor but not to dominate. In fact, in a recording studio, when you are hearing too much damper noise from your acoustic piano, you would call the technician and get the instrument professionally adjusted.

Certainly, the Key Off sound in an acoustic piano is fairly consistent and independent from the velocity or length of time you’ve held the dampers away from the keys. At least that’s been my experience, as well. And this is consistent with how gravity works (which is the main player in this equation). The pull of gravity is consistent and not influenced positively or negatively by your velocity, either in engaging or disengaging the key. So Key Off velocity would prove to be less than useful here.

In this case, piano noise, I’d rather not be too aware of the damper noise at all... it is best left at a level where it gives the intended illusion of deadening the still vibrating ‘string’. It is not something the listener is anticipating, it something more the player “feels”.

As you may know, XA CONTROL extends far beyond just the damper noise on an acoustic piano and that type of implementation (where every Key On eventually causes a Key Off Sound). Only those who don’t play acoustic piano, have not observed that the ‘noise’ from inside the piano is fairly consistent when compared to the dynamics of the strings amplified by the soundboard... and personally having engineered scores and scores of solo piano recording dates in my time, you do notice the dampers most when after a long held chord they are finally released.

When emulating an acoustic piano in a synth that is one of the benchmarks I would use to judge “how much” of the damper noise I would add. So that in those very quite moments, after a long held chord... I want them ‘felt’ more than heard. If you are getting anything that could be described as a “popping” sound, I would say you have way, way too much mixed in, (unless that is your intent: creating a piano that needs serious regulation).

On a harpsichord, the Key Off noise is substantial and does justice to the prominence of the noise of its mechanism. If you’ve ever played a real one, it pretty much is the noisiest box you’ve ever played — you must ignore it, sort of like the drone of a bagpipe, it’s annoying, but it’s not quite right without it. On a synthesizer, you get to decide “how much”.

Extra Credit: Other uses for Key Off
On some of the acoustic guitar sounds, Key Off is used to great effect to generate virtually random fingered guitar effects. They seem random because of the narrow velocity range to which the Key Off Element is set to respond.

It takes a few minutes to adjust your internal sense of velocity (to get your ‘sea legs’, so to speak) to play a Performance like “Fingered Steel” Here, Key Off is used to add a ‘dead string’ sound on each Key Off (Elem5), but Elem7 and Elem8 use Key Off differently, they are not responsible to make a sound all the time. They are used to mimic the fact that finger zings and other guitar related ‘noises’ are not usually something the player does on purpose.

The Element Velocity Limit ensures that the finger zings (110-112) only occur when you happen to hit a note precisely in that narrow range. Just as a side note... out of 10 players who sit and play one of these velocity switching articulated instrument sounds, 7 are completely unaware of the Key Off sound. But most all of those listening to this sound (well) performed, feel it is an extremely fine emulation of an acoustic guitar. Your mileage may vary...

It takes a bit of exploration/time to play this Performance well... a three-way velocity switching sound in the main body of the sound, with a pitch slide at extreme velocity. If you reach the velocity-pitch slide articulation too quickly, you should adjust both your volume and velocity curve. Volume first: TURN UP! here’s why... if you get more output from your softer velocities, you will naturally, not hit the key to trigger the pitch slide until you actually go for it. If it occurs too easily, increase your overall volume in your sound system (old recording engineer trick to make the performer lighten up their touch - give them more of themselves in the headphones). You want to find that sweet spot... where it is not occurring until you want it to occur... until you go for it. I recommend about 15-20 minutes of just playing the Performance before attempting to adjust anything beyond the overall volume. (It takes that much time, on average, to get a feel for playing any sound).

I’ve heard the Pedal Steel sound played with a technique that fits that programming and sounds very realistic. Some times you have to make adjustments to the parameters that influence these things to fit your personal playing style. And in reality there will be some sounds you simply cannot play (don’t fret). If you can’t adjust your playing to the programmer’s preferences, you should attempt to make the adjustments to how it plays/performance by editing the program. One of the differences between XA CONTROL (as found in the synthesizers) and “Super Articulation” is the ability to make these (personal preference) adjustments.

So it is okay to feel that a sound is terrible (means you cannot find a way to make it work for you) ... you can fix it or skip it. Our participation here is to help folks who are into fixing it to their own preference. Fixing it is a matter getting it to play right for your playing style.

In FM-X the programming equivalent to the Key Off articulation, is done organically within the Operator Modulator:Carrier relationship. Referred to as “stuff” among FM’ers, it is the creation of the mainly fixed frequency noise components resident in an instrument sound. You can ‘experience’ this in FM-X sounds like: “Clavi Stuff”

If you use envelope follower it really works. ı tried and it is great. however you have to adjust envelope follower to lower values and release time to minimal. the gain curve in control assign page should be bipolar. however the problem, it works with playing single keys. if you press another keys after one key, envelope follower work again and you hear unpleasant key of noise. I will work on the motion sequencer, because it works for every single key. About 20 years Im a big fan of yamaha synth, can yamaha find a solution with os update (damper pedal noise, sympathetic resonance)? thanks

Personally, I’m not a fan of damper pedal noise, as it is not a musical output from the instrument... again in recording sessions that is a cause for alarm bells. I know it is there, I just prefer to avoid hearing it, completely. Singers cough, it is not a musical output of their instrument, personally, I would avoid recording it, as well. (Of course, this is just personal preference).

The “cutting edge” in acoustic piano emulation... being a fan for 20 years you should know about this.. if you have not sat at one and played it...please run, do not walk:
AvantGrand N3X

Be sure to click on the “more info” link...

Of course, your question is about putting such features in a pro product, like a synth... you could certainly create that Waveform and import it to your synth... it would be fixed frequency across all keys. The nice thing about building AWM2 sounds in the current pro synths from a Yamaha is you have 64 Oscillators at your disposal. Go for it!

I have a few recordings that have damper pedal noise, and it is mainly a distraction from the music (imho). ‘A lil dab’ll do ya!” Too much is distracting.

I have customized all my pianos & set the "Key Off" release element to "Normal", then set a the initial delay for that element to 4, set the attack to 19 & the release to 95.

Key-on delay: I don't think that's how to correctly set it - because you're fixing when that noise is placed relative to your strike - which is further removed from reality than the original and "better" to just disable the element completely. But if it works for you, then that's what matters more than the peanut gallery.

I was able to get envelope follower to act as compression so the key off is louder when the strings are more resonant and not as loud when the instrument is essentially silent. You have to adjust the envelope follower gain to get a more "full swing" output out of it. This is often the case for any envelope follower work. The correct curve is a reverse ramp with negative polarity. Reverse ramps do not exist in the normal set - so you can either user define one or use "close enough" the "dogleg" curve type with Param 1 and Param 2 as "0" and a negative ratio with absolute value small enough so the "plateau" is minimized - but also large enough so the range of values is as wide as possible. It would be better not to have the "plateau" section - which you can accomplish with user curves - but even with it there, the effect was working "correctly" (take that with a grain of salt - I think I'd have to volume scale across the keyboard range to make it "better" ).

Overall, I think it's best - if you want this feature - to just set a constant level by removing the velocity sensitivity and leave it at that. One that doesn't pop out - one that may be overshadowed by the fundamental at certain volumes - and one that may be barely heard at lower volumes. My opinion that this particular noise adds little-to-nothing to my own personal playing does bias me a bit. I like mechanical noises (hammers, pedal-to-hammer-rest-etc, keys) because I'm accustomed to a clanky upright - something that effect this isn't trying to be.

It is true that there are playing conditions where the stock preset pianos do the wrong thing - something unmusical and distracting. Something a piano would not do under the same conditions. However you cut it, changing this is needed to avoid that pothole.

Key-on delay:
I was able to get envelope follower to act as compression so the key off is louder when the strings are more resonant and not as loud when the instrument is essentially silent. You have to adjust the envelope follower gain to get a more "full swing" output out of it. This is often the case for any envelope follower work. The correct curve is a reverse ramp with negative polarity. Reverse ramps do not exist in the normal set - so you can either user define one or use "close enough" the "dogleg" curve type with Param 1 and Param 2 as "0" and a negative ratio with absolute value small enough so the "plateau" is minimized - but also large enough so the range of values is as wide as possible. It would be better not to have the "plateau" section - which you can accomplish with user curves - but even with it there, the effect was working "correctly" (take that with a grain of salt - I think I'd have to volume scale across the keyboard range to make it "better" ).

I'll have to try that. What 'strings' PART are you using for the envelope? Are the 'strings' just the Piano PART(s) or are you using a separate PART that is actually Strings? Can an envelope of 'Key Off' PART be set against more than one other PART? (I hope I worded that correctly ... I'm thinking in terms of the CFX Concert whereby the lower notes velocities are spread over two PARTs, so an envelope of the Key Off PART would need to be against two piano PARTs...)

Key-on delay: I don't think that's how to correctly set it - because you're fixing when that noise is placed relative to your strike - which is further removed from reality than the original and "better" to just disable the element completely.

I'm trying to properly wrap my head around what this Key Off element is supposed to achieve. Is it basically to emulate when the sustain pedal is lifted and the subtle noise that makes?
If so, when not using the sustain pedal, the Key Off notes still sound out, which if I'm guessing correctly is not natural for an acoustic piano to have Key Off noises after each note without the sustain pedal being pressed & then released..!? Am I correct in this or does that Key Off sound actually occur on notes of an acoustic grand even when no sustain pedal is being used?

If it is the case that the Key Off noise is only meant to emulate the release of the sustain pedal, then since this element also plays/sounds out when releasing notes without the sustain pedal, then it is not a true emulation & probably should not be utilized at all..!?

I'm trying to properly wrap my head around what this Key Off element is supposed to achieve. Is it basically to emulate when the sustain pedal is lifted and the subtle noise that makes?
If so, when not using the sustain pedal, the Key Off notes still sound out, which if I'm guessing correctly is not natural for an acoustic piano to have Key Off noises after each note without the sustain pedal being pressed & then released..!? Am I correct in this or does that Key Off sound actually occur on notes of an acoustic grand even when no sustain pedal is being used?

The Sustain pedal on a piano holds the dampers from returning to rest on the string. The dampers of a piano lift and fall for every note. Every note. The Sustain pedal simply prevents the dampers of those strings struck from falling back to rest. Even on keys struck with no Sustain pedal involved.

At rest the strings are dampened (the felts rest against the string preventing free vibration). The act of pressing a key causes a myriad of mechanisms to both lift the damper and strike the string. No Sustain pedal the felt damper returns to deadening the string as soon as you let go of the key. If the Sustain pedal is involved it simply holds this dampers up, allowing those strings to freely vibrate, until you finally let go of the pedal.

Run, don’t walk, to an acoustic piano. Play it and watch, listen... essential before attempting to emulate.

On a synth or most electronic keyboards Sustain cc64 takes the place of you holding the Keys down. (There are no felt dampers nor are there any strings vibrating).

See this post for other uses of KEY OFF — it isn’t just for pianos.
Key Off Explained

The Sustain pedal on a piano holds the dampers from returning to rest on the string. The dampers of a piano lift and fall for every note. Every note. The Sustain pedal simply prevents the dampers of those strings struck from falling back to rest. Even on keys struck with no Sustain pedal involved.

At rest the strings are dampened (the felts rest against the string preventing free vibration). The act of pressing a key causes a myriad of mechanisms to both lift the damper and strike the string. No Sustain pedal the felt damper returns to deadening the string as soon as you let go of the key. If the Sustain pedal is involved it simply holds this dampers up, allowing those strings to freely vibrate, until you finally let go of the pedal.

Run, don’t walk, to an acoustic piano. Play it and watch, listen... essential before attempting to emulate.

Thanks BM! That clarifies it perfectly...

I should mention that not every note on a piano has dampers... it varies but notes up to G5 will have dampers and notes G#5 and above are undampered. They ring free at all times and are unaffected by Sustain pedal.