Steve, this is not your dad's FM _ it's not even your old FM synth. Reface DX is a RE-imagination of the interFACE of FM. I can do more with one of these four operators than you could with any of the previous 4-Op units. And you can certainly do things with programming in real time that you would never, never, ever consider doing with your dad's (or your own) previous FM synths. Period. Perhaps if all you do is look back and try to compare based on what you know, that is all you can see: it's just 4-operators. But trust me, you can do things here in real time that, you would not have been able to do even on 6 operator FM synths. You know me, I met you back when DX's roamed the planet as current synths, I would not kid you! Don't sleep on this. (I'll ask you to wake-up, please!)

As to the polyphony, you have to think of the role this is going to play in your music... It will rule for SYNTH BASS and SYNTH LEAD sounds... and sound effects that are strictly out-of-this-world. If you need polyphony get the Reface CP (128) or the Reface YC (128); they have more traditional keyboard roles covered, if that's what you are looking for... but even with the CP and YC, you can take them places they haven't been before.

The fact that each of the Operators has its own Feedback Loop and is controllable in real time means it only takes 1 operator to build a big rich Tone. You'll have to at least spend a bit of time with it - not even the best of us can tell everything from a specification list. I don't think anyone can grasp what it really is until you touch one and move your fingers across those multi-touch, velocity sensitive slide controls.

No we are not kidding you! Would we kid you!?!

EBay... they don't have any FM synths that can do what the Reface DX can do... Not that I'm aware. (And I try to stay up with such stuff...) 🙂

Remember, these are a re-imagination. On previous FM synths you recalled a preset and played. You did not / could not control it like this. I'm sure you remember, the EDIT button was the least pressed button on any DX7! The multi-touch sensitive control 'sliders' (x4) make all the difference. Just because you think you know what an Operator is, only gets you in the ballpark _ this is truly not like any four operator synthesizer you've ever played previously, and that is a fact Jack, er Steve. Trust me.
🙂

I think you and Yamaha are grasping at straws to justify an inferior product that should not even exist.

Real-time control? My DX7MkII has 2 continuous sliders, a foot controller jack and a breath controller jack as well as aftertouch. That's more real-time control than you could ever get out of that 4op poser of a "synth"- ESPECIALLY if you are making music and actually playing the keyboard- if you are using both your hands to play (which MOST keyboard players do) my old DX smokes this thing in real-time control! Remember EG Bias and what you can assign to real-time controllers that DON'T require a use of a hand???!!!

As for 6 operator synths- mine has fractional level scaling and microtuning capabilities, does this? I don't think so. This "new" synth isn't even compatible with the huge existing library of one of THE MOST popular synths of all time- heck, Native Instruments FM7 and the Korg Kronos can both import DX7 librairies, why can't this? Bad design choice.

Again 8 note polyphony FM in this day and age is backwards to say the least. With 8 note poly, my DX7MkII has 16 operators.

If I'm moving my fingers across the multi-touch display, that means I'm not playing my keyboard very well, am I? Again, I've got more real-time control and BETTER ergonomics on my DX7MkII than on this little toy of a backwards, repackaged lame excuse for a FM synth.

And finally, asking me to consider buying one of these along with a CP & YC- REALLY??? Buy inferior products with miniature keys for $1,500.00 US?

Yamaha must truly be desperate and it is a sad day for Yamaha, I would be ashamed.....

No, no, no, I think you are missing the point entirely. Please keep your old DX7mkII, this is not about replacing that (please don't argue with me about how great that is, I think we here at Yamaha, know that already). 🙂 This is a rethinking of that "old bulb". Let me see if I can help you see some light at the end of that tunnel of time.

One thing about the old FM, for most folks, was that it did not invite you dig in and create your own sounds. I find the rethink of this inclusive rather than exclusive, particularly when it comes to programming more intuitively. I find it a hands-on experience, not a hands-off experience.

If you only play with both hands always on the keys, stick with your DX7mkII, dad. You might be too old school for this. (Frankly, if you are two-handed player only, it has MIDI and virtually everything is realtime controllable via Control Change messages). I think in the design was a move away from what you already know, and a new presentation that will allow a new generation to develop new sounds ... Thus my comment, it's not your dad's FM, dad... 🙂

The level of included features: enhanced real time control, cutting edge Effect processing, fit perfectly in this mobile package. The whole Soundmondo concept of international social sound and music sharing is also something brand NEW, unavailable in your old school 20th century world. We are betting on a new generation discovering things we know are yet undiscovered in the FM tone system... If you are only looking back (and you are, IMHO) you will miss the point here entirely. (And that's okay, really, it is... But your anger/ire escapes me).

But truth: You are "prejudging" it, and I'll have to talk to you again when you have actually played one. I don't think in this case you're qualified to draw those conclusions, quite yet... even though it is clearly your prerogative to say and feel whatever you like, whenever you like.
.

...little toy of a backwards, repackaged lame excuse for a FM synth.

Wow, ouch, Calm down. I love your passion, but I respectfully disagree. Because you are looking at a dish of ice cream (on a computer screen no less) and telling me it is mashed potatoes. You haven't tasted it yet, you don't have enough information to conclude that....IMHO. If money is an issue, as it seems it is for many folks, your comparing it to a DX7 or a Korg Kronos is really almost silly on your part. If porting over your old FM sounds is what you dream about, keep your old DX, it probably still works!!! Besides as you say, there are many things that already can do that. I find it flattering that so many devices can port over and play those old sounds, really I do (every now and then I hear a sound that I programmed, it's flattering, really). I don't think that was even a goal here. From your perspective I guess you feel it should have been, just your reaction is puzzling... Sounds like you really wanted to want one.

But if you grew up since that time, in the 25 years since that last DX7mkII roamed the earth, you just may have a different view on the sounds you find useful and hip. If you are still playing music based in the past, you know: "backwards", "repackaged" R&B, or you're in some 80s tribute band, or play some dreaded '80s 'smooth jazz' band from yester-year, a DX7mkII probably still fits right in. You can certainly, as you say, find one on EBay, or port those old sounds in a myriad of DX/FM wanna-be's.

Think of the Reface DX as being designed for someone making music *today*, someone making NEW music in the 21st Century.

I guess the "toy" comment is strictly based on its size, I have no snappy metaphors for size not mattering, this is a personal thing. 🙂 But, seriously, the "mobile musician" is the target customer. Don't tell me about your old Mac IIci and all that it could do, when we are talking modern, convenient and portable. The tablet computing devices of today might be just as big a culture shock for you... Especially, if you are still tied to memories of big bulky desktop computers. (I'm not saying that's the case, but just as an example).

Perhaps you have no need for a "mobile music synth"... Fair enough, I can accept that. We make other products for you. Because for many musicians, a gig is playing to a seated audience in a traditional bar situation. This is about NEW concepts and a re-invention about *where* you choose to be creative and make music. That's all.

I can, with a Reface and an iPad, make some serious music wherever and whenever I like. Add the mobile Podcasting mixer (AG03/AG06) we introduced at winter NAMM, and you have a way to broadcast your creations to a worldwide audience from your bedroom! Or back porch! Or from your local Starbucks!!! Seriously, we think it will fit the lifestyle of a whole new generation of creative musicians. We anticipated some amount of noise from those dinosaurs who remember all too well the past... and how they *used to* do things! But, not to worry, they'll get over it. Seems the old joke about how many blue grass musicians it takes to change a light bulb...applies here: only One, but three others to sing about the "old bulb..." Welcome to the new century, my friend! Get back to me later, Steve. (I see in your Avatar you're playing the old Akai EVI thing, I bet the Reface DX will sound great with that, and the polyphony for that... 8 is enough!) 🙂

Peace! Please be sure to fill out the current Survey here on Yamaha Synth, it's a much better way to make you point. We'd appreciate it.

Respectfully Phil,

I apologize.

Peace!

I recall attending a Yamaha dealer meeting a couple of decades ago, where a tearful Yamaha executive haltingly apologized to US dealers for having done nothing but repackage FM technology for years.

Yesterday, I watched a Yamaha marketing flak and an engineer (?) attempt to explain why reFace was such an advancement, so cool. The jist seemed to be "I (personally) really like little keyboards! They are so cute and fun when people come to parties!" It was embarrassing. Even the ordinarily ecstatic Burt S. was clearly barely able to feign excitement in the videos produced by SonicState and released on YouTube.

I appreciate the fact that professionals will behave professionally, and will attempt to put as much lipstick on a pig as it takes. That's just business, but at some point in the future I know this will be a point of admission at a bar in Anaheim after-hours.

reFace was billed as a professional product ... shades of CS80 and all that ... quite a tease. If these products were sold at BestBuy in the "home keyboard" section. (at a street price of $250) they'd be revolutionary. But that's not how they were targeted.

There is nothing special about a monotimbral, one-oscillator synthesizer with minimal tone-shaping capabilities. There are already vastly superior options in that space. An attempt to argue that point would be an exercise in futility and cognitive dissonance. Courtesy prevents me from mentioning brands, models, and (lower) prices. No actual patch memory? Seriously? No after-touch at all? No pitch or Mod wheels? Why did any one even allow the CS80 to be mentioned? It borders on a lie. People don't like being deceived.

A new FM synth would be interesting. I recall participating in professional focus groups (through both the dealer network and consultants like Gary Luenberger) regarding what Yamaha should do to improve FM synthesis. Nobody ever suggested "Hey give me more 4-op synths! That's where it's at baby!" That's always been seen as a compromise and nothing more. I can program FM. I understand the technology deeply. The notion that some extra feedback loops is a "big deal" ... laughable, really. Surely someone at Yamaha could notice that beat-death-used FS1R are selling for $1500 or more on eBay ... and they always sell. A competent marketing department would take note of why the FS1R failed in the marketplace at the time (confused, saturated market), fix that ... and give the people what they so obviously want.

The YC is kinda cool. I just don't see spending $500 for yet another organ.

The CP is cute.

I'm so sorry that Yamaha let you down, guys. Maybe there is hope for "Montage", but this doesn't inspire confidence.

What do you know about Montage? Heard if it but no info.

Whole heartily agree with you dude, you make a lot of sense, shame Yamaha didn't do a focus group with people who actually buy their products. 🙂

Allen wrote:

I recall attending a Yamaha dealer meeting a couple of decades ago, where a tearful Yamaha executive haltingly apologized to US dealers for having done nothing but repackage FM technology for years.

Yesterday, I watched a Yamaha marketing flak and an engineer (?) attempt to explain why reFace was such an advancement, so cool. The jist seemed to be "I (personally) really like little keyboards! They are so cute and fun when people come to parties!" It was embarrassing. Even the ordinarily ecstatic Burt S. was clearly barely able to feign excitement in the videos produced by SonicState and released on YouTube.

I appreciate the fact that professionals will behave professionally, and will attempt to put as much lipstick on a pig as it takes. That's just business, but at some point in the future I know this will be a point of admission at a bar in Anaheim after-hours.

reFace was billed as a professional product ... shades of CS80 and all that ... quite a tease. If these products were sold at BestBuy in the "home keyboard" section. (at a street price of $250) they'd be revolutionary. But that's not how they were targeted.

There is nothing special about a monotimbral, one-oscillator synthesizer with minimal tone-shaping capabilities. There are already vastly superior options in that space. An attempt to argue that point would be an exercise in futility and cognitive dissonance. Courtesy prevents me from mentioning brands, models, and (lower) prices. No actual patch memory? Seriously? No after-touch at all? No pitch or Mod wheels? Why did any one even allow the CS80 to be mentioned? It borders on a lie. People don't like being deceived.

A new FM synth would be interesting. I recall participating in professional focus groups (through both the dealer network and consultants like Gary Luenberger) regarding what Yamaha should do to improve FM synthesis. Nobody ever suggested "Hey give me more 4-op synths! That's where it's at baby!" That's always been seen as a compromise and nothing more. I can program FM. I understand the technology deeply. The notion that some extra feedback loops is a "big deal" ... laughable, really. Surely someone at Yamaha could notice that beat-death-used FS1R are selling for $1500 or more on eBay ... and they always sell. A competent marketing department would take note of why the FS1R failed in the marketplace at the time (confused, saturated market), fix that ... and give the people what they so obviously want.

The YC is kinda cool. I just don't see spending $500 for yet another organ.

The CP is cute.

I'm so sorry that Yamaha let you down, guys. Maybe there is hope for "Montage", but this doesn't inspire confidence.

Please make your feelings known, fill out the current "New Motif/MOXF Survey", here on YamahaSynth, we'd appreciate it immensely! You are being asked, this is your pipeline, accusations and anger don't translate well... The survey will speak louder than your rants.

MX users not welcome on survey?

sorry, Phil, you're absolutely correct- I should have handled this in a much more appropriate manner

Bad Mister wrote:[...]fill out the current "New Motif/MOXF Survey", here on YamahaSynth, we'd appreciate it immensely! You are being asked, this is your pipeline[...]

Done! We all hope that this pipeline will be more efficiant and productive than the former "VOICE OF CUSTOMER AND FUTURE YAMAHA SYNTHS" (I remember very good ideas, suggestions and discussions in there) that disappeared over the nirvana of the Yamaha labyrinth... 😉

Johannes wrote:

We all hope that this pipeline will be more efficiant and productive than the former "VOICE OF CUSTOMER AND FUTURE YAMAHA SYNTHS " that disappeared over the nirvana of the Yamaha labyrinth... 😉

Here here, well said. A bit disrespectful to the customer... Ie: shut up we are not interested and bothered about talking through your ideas. We are going to keep doing what we want and just ignore you.

angry rant removed Phil....

Steve wrote:

angry rant removed Phil....

No, problem Steve, I hope you know I respect you. Always have. I've taken a lot of abuse the last 24 hours from many anonymous people, who hide behind this thing we call the Internet. Wasn't prepared for it from folks I actually know.