Hi,

I have plans to buy the RefaceDX (as soon as my budget allows it). I think I may call myself an expert in 4 operator Yamaha FM synths, especially when talking about SysEx (in)compatibility. On http://dxconvert.martintarenskeen.nl you will find my project DXconvert/TXconvert. This is a SysEx toolkit, written in Python, to convert patchfiles between many of the classic DX and TX Yamaha 4-operator and 6-operator FM synths, in many different fileformats - not only pure SysEx.

Using that sofware is, for example, possible to convert DX100 patches to be used on DX7 synths. The result is not 100% perfect, but reasonably accurate.

As soon as I have my RefaceDX I will be starting to investigate the specs, and do some measurements. It's high on my TODO list to develop conversion sofware to convert classic Yamaha 4-op FM sounds from DX9, FB01, DX100, TX81Z, and even Korg DS-8 and 707 (that used Yamaha 4-op FM chips inside) for use with these new Yamaha DX Reface synths. Results may vary, but it could become a valueble tool.

It will not be possible to convert DX7 and other 6-operator FM sounds (DX7II, TX-802, DX200) to DX Reface.

A six operator "Reface DX Pro" with 6 variable feedback loops would be a real killer: It should not only promise and advertise, but *really* be able to produce the "classic" DX7 sounds, and go far beyond that thanks to the new much more flexible feedback parameters.

Looking forward to it, Yeah my knowledge of 4vs 6 Op was a little bare initially, I'd only been using Dexed or FM7 before but loading the classic ROMs. Looking at the classic Patches in Dexed.

I really wanted the classic Bass 1 patch, the 'attack bass' is pretty crappy, sure I can program something better anyway.. Most of the other classic sounds are good but it would be nice to get the Flute and Vibes etc.. I don't know why they didn't just make 1 or 2 of the banks for all classic sounds.

On another note, the 'Dark Bass' preset, this sounds the same as a classic DX bass but it's not on the DX7, does anyone know where it came from, was it the DX 100 or something alike? It sounds exactly like this, funny cause I had been wondering which one it was from and it appears on the Reface.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtZ7--Vxi1A&list=FLr2Ukq9fWXY1VnZHZt4Yt-A&index=30

How powerful do you think the FB function makes the Dexed over the 4 op DX synths? It's a new function right, so should be able to equal the DX7?

Thanks.

I guess you meant "Reface" where you wrote "Dexed". (Dexed is a reverse engineered, and quite accurate, software emulation of the DX7) The Reface feedback system is indeed a cool new feature compared to the classic DX synths.
I think it can not compensate for the 2 missing operators, compared to the DX7. Mainly because the 2 extra operators on the DX7 have their own envelope independent generator parameters. This makes them much more flexible, even with only one oldstyle feedback loop.

But it does mean the Reface should be able to create richer, fatter timbres than the DX100/DX21. Different from the DX7, but with a character of it's own. Comparison to the TX81Z/DX11/YS200/V50 will also be interesting. These were also 4-op FM synths, but each operator had 8 different waveforms, not only sinewave. The Reface DX does not have these 8 waveforms, but the variable feedback loops on each operator might be an even better idea. I am guessing all this from the specs on paper. I can hardly wait to put my hands on a real Reface DX and find it all out in real life 🙂

In short: The Yamaha engineers have not choosen to develop an FM synth to re-create all the classic DX7 and TX81Z sounds as closely as possible. Instead they have created a new instrument, inspired by the past. If you want the pure classic DX7 sound: buy a 2nd hand DX7, or install Dexed and load those classic SysEx patches that can be found all around the internet.

Update: I have been the happy owner of a Reface DX for some time now, and now are also the proud owner of a vintage Yamaha V50.
Can the classic 4-operator FM patches from the past be converted to be used with this Reface DX?
Take a look at The Reface DX Legacy Project

The 4-Operator technology was developed for arcade games and inexpensive sound cards for the PC market, and certain 'multi-media' or game console devices. The new Montage keyboards now have 'FM-X' which is 8-Op with 32 algorithms. For someone who plunked down over two grand for the newest 'flagship' synth the DX7IIFD back in the 90's, I have been appalled at the amount of money and time and products Yamaha have since wasted building these 4 Op "toys", and passing them off as serious musical instruments. The Reface is cute, it has some redeeming qualities, and technically it's a 'DX' if you count the DX100, lineage etc., but let's not forget that even earlier than the DX line of synths, Yamaha had products like the Electone organs that had amazingly versatile sound engines based on FM, and in fact these were of the 8-Op variety, and yet featured a whopping 63 algorithms, (nearly twice the current FM) and that was in 1980, 4 years before the introduction of the original DX7. It begs the question, why has 8-Op taken so long to return, and where are those additional 31 algorithms that Yamaha is holding onto? If you have ever heard some of the patches originally created for the Electone series, you might say many have a quality similar to the DX, and others could not possibly be FM synthesis, because they sound too good, and this was before AWM even came into the picture. Somewhere along the way, was lost a legacy of what FM was supposed to be, or perhaps Yamaha had all these chips made for a market that tanked, and they had to use the parts to make something else. Now we live in an age where everything is flash rom, and all is software, and no need to build a proprietary chip, except to keep the prying eyes from breaking the 'codes'. But FM theory is well known to developers of synths and soft-synths, FM7 you will recall, underwent a change to FM8 because it was just too good at looking and sounding like a DX7, and even it went beyond what Yamaha had put on the market in hardware to date. Now we have FM-X, (there's that lonely 'X' again) Why not marry that 'X' with another number, and release the 'DX8' and be done with it, or the DX12, DX16, and add to the depth of FM without all the effects and processing tricks, but back to pure synthesis, and 24 bit audio, since you originally went from 12 bit to 16 bit with the original line, to clean up the FM grit. And while you're at it, yes, a Reface 'Pro' with 6-Op just like our old friend the real DX7. You just can't fool the DX7 aficionados with fancy packaging, when we already know what's under the hood. I really shake my head year after year at what Yamaha has done. I had to sell my DX7 at one point, I missed it so much I was even considering an SY, or better yet, an SE90 because of the ability to put in the DX board, and then Yamaha scrapped that piece of hardware. The FS1R and the DX200 had everything you could dream of, and they were scrapped (and priced out of the stratosphere now on eBay) Now the Montage has arrived, but to me, it's another near-miss, because it's harkening back to where the SY series left off, combining the FM with AWM, but it's another expensive "do-it-all machine", and while that's somewhat cool, it's been done to death. What we need now is a truly unique FM synth that will deliver more than nostalgia, or a poor imitation of the real thing. We don't need all the samples and the loops, but maybe a good piano sound, and a few things you might want to layer with the DX patches, maybe an analog filter or two, basic recording functions, but what the original DX players felt is that they had a unique 'instrument' that had great expression, a unique voice, and even though every one had to have one eventually, you felt like you were the only one. We could go so much further than we have with it (Just look at FM8 for example). I for one, have felt cheated for years, chasing after the perfect digital piano sound, and all the attempts to capture what the vintage synths had, through sampling, and soft-synth emulation (another panacea for the lack of hardware and the trusty old rack-synths of a bygone era). Every NAMM, I feel like a groundhog, I lift my head up to see if they've finally done it, and i see the shadow of what could have been, and then I go back into my burrow for the next year. This year holds some promise for innovation, but If Yamaha misses another opportunity with DX/FM, I know I won't be the only one leaving them behind for good.

The new Montage keyboards now have 'FM-X' which is 8-Op with 32 algorithms.

The Montage is FM-X with 8 Operators, 88 Algorithms. Just a brief point of order. I'm not at all sure that most of your facts are indeed correct. But thanks for sharing.....

Sean wrote:

Hi, Ok so the Reface has some of the classic sounds already but I'm wondering if there will be anyway to load in the classic sounds like the bass, 'Attack Bass' seems to be an attempt at the classic DX7 Bass but not quite there?

I made a "Lately Bass" type sound, it's not exact but didn't make it to be. It's on Soundmondo. Search for Lately Bass.

rickard wrote:

Sean wrote:

Hi, Ok so the Reface has some of the classic sounds already but I'm wondering if there will be anyway to load in the classic sounds like the bass, 'Attack Bass' seems to be an attempt at the classic DX7 Bass but not quite there?

I made a "Lately Bass" type sound, it's not exact but didn't make it to be. It's on Soundmondo. Search for Lately Bass.

As mentioned before, the Reface has been inspired by the classic DX synths, but there are also differences. The DX7 has six operators, each operator "only" has a sinewave, and there is only one feedback loop. The TX81Z (and some other models) had 4-operators, each operator having 8 different waveforms, and only one feedback loop. The reface also is a 4-operator FM synth, each operator only having a sinewave waveform, but each operator has it's own feedback loop. Besides these feedback loops are of a more advanced type than the 0-7 value types we know from the old DX7 and TX81Z. Which sounds better 6-operator DX7, 8-waveform 4-operator TX81Z, or 4-operator Reface with advanced multiple Feedback loops? I would say they sound different.
But I am a lucky guy, I can combine all three flavours, owning a Reface DX + V50 + TX7 😀