That's clearly a "How come..." question... To which there is usually never a real good satisfactory answer.

The CS80 introduced a lot of things. Let's see:

Polyphony (that survived)
Presets (that survived)
Ribbon Controller (survived, also interacted with Sustain II)
Pressure Sensitive Touch Response (AfterTouch...this survived)
Polyphonic Aftertouch (made it into the MIDI spec)
Velocity Sensitivity (that survived)
D-to-A Converters (that survived)

220 pounds ... No one would think of building a keyboard synthesizer this heavy any more. I'm sure extensive after market research was done, and some of the more esoteric innovations were destined for the obsolete file. Back when this dinosaur roamed the earth the market was tiny and doing acoustic instrument emulation was in its very infancy. Those things that tended to support these emulations seemed to survive, those that didn't went the way of the Dodo. But this is just speculation on my part. Why do you think it did not survive?

Just FYI:
The legato mode on an original MiniMoog was seen at the time as a short coming (believe it or not). It originally had only single trigger mode... Meaning when you played legato your AEG was 'running' from the first key press and when it's duration was reached you went silent. I remember having my MiniMoog retrofitted with the "multi trigger" kit just as soon as it was available - this allowed it to play more like my Arp Odyssey which could do single or multi triggers. It's funny how now (looking back) people see the single trigger legato thing as an Analog advantage (trust me, back then it was not viewed as such) you made do with what you had. It's only good for that hackneyed slur (gliss), which was better done with the CS80's Ribbon which had a rather unique response, but mostly that single trigger thing was a drag. Having a choice was way better.

On another note:
Have you played a Tyros 5? Check the behavior of the Super Articulation and Super Articulation 2 Voices. You play legato the Voice is gloriously monophonic, however when you play a chord it automatically becomes polyphonic. No button to press, no pedal to engage, it automatically senses what and how you are playing and delivers polyphony when you require it, yet your lead line behaves properly, monophonically. If you haven't played it, you should check it out. It's uncanny and will help to restore your faith that Yamaha continues to push the envelope (no pun intended) when it comes to musically useful behaviors. Innovations are us. 🙂

Hi Mister,

As you can probably tell I have a lot of "how come..." questions when it comes to synthesis technology 🙂

I have been looking into the Tyros 5. Can you guys send me one so I can try it out? 🙂 Because here in Wisconsin, apparently there are no dealers who actually have them in stock!

I have downloaded all available documentation on it and have done quite a bit of web surfing to do research, but I cannot really find information on these questions:

- The Concert Grand and other of the Tyros 5's Super Articulation pianos: How many velocity layers per key, and how many multisamples across the keyboard range? Is the quality of the pianos comparable to the current Motif line?

- Same question for the T5's Electric Pianos. They are all "Cool!" voices - and I have tried "Cool!" Electric Pianos on the Yamaha DGX-640 (which also has "Cool!" e-pianos) and was not impressed. It sounded like there were only 3 or 4 velocity layers, and if you're a keyboard player, that's just not enough for an e-piano. So if I'm spending five grand on a keyboard, I would expect the quality of the pianos and e-pianos to be comparable to the current Motif line, not the "Portable Grand" line...

I realize that the number of voices, styles and number of features of the T5 is mind-blowingly massive, but I tend to focus on the pianos.

Also do you know if any of Yamaha's VL technology actually made it into the T5? This is not a dealbreaker for me since I do have a PLG150VL board but it would be nice.

Thanks!
Paul

- The Concert Grand and other of the Tyros 5's Super Articulation pianos: How many velocity layers per key, and how many multisamples across the keyboard range? Is the quality of the pianos comparable to the current Motif line?

I don't know if I can actually explain to you in terms you know, how the Super Articulation Voices are constructed; but the number of multi-samples (Elements) in a Voice could be mind-boggling. Certainly a single SA2 Voice could be as large as some entire synthesizer's Wave ROMs. It depends on the instrument being modeled via the Tyros' Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) technology... I guess the best answer would be: As many as it takes to recreate the particular Super Articulation instrument being modeled and the behaviors that are being emulated. The structure of that technology is not discussed in much detail because it is much like today's HD Televisions - there are no user serviceable parts for you to mess around with (edit)... you really just "play" them, you do not build your own (beginning to see a major difference between a Motif-series engine and the Tyros 5 engine?) It's a matter of focus.

The synths are editable... (User serviceable) ...

- Same question for the T5's Electric Pianos. They are all "Cool!" voices - and I have tried "Cool!" Electric Pianos on the Yamaha DGX-640 (which also has "Cool!" e-pianos) and was not impressed. It sounded like there were only 3 or 4 velocity layers, and if you're a keyboard player, that's just not enough for an e-piano. So if I'm spending five grand on a keyboard, I would expect the quality of the pianos and e-pianos to be comparable to the current Motif line, not the "Portable Grand" line...

"Cool" is a non-technical term (you will find that the Tyros 5 and other style-based and home Yamaha keyboards from that Division, use these non-technical/user-friendly terms because the target customer is not interested (mainly) in how many multi-samples across the keyboard range are used. "Cool" just means it has some non-standard behaviors (like the 'bark' of the Tine-type electric piano when played with velocity). Many, many synthesizers use this type of tech to accomplish acoustic behavior - Velocity.

SA, SA2 and even the Motif-series' XA CONTROL, are all methods to accomplish "behaviors" in sample-based tone engines. And they go beyond the very standard type velocity switching technology found in the "Cool" Voices. Think of velocity switching as sample-playback's first type of articulation control!

Whether or not you were "impressed" with the velocity switching Voice in a particular low-end product is just a matter of your own personal taste - and does not really enter into a discussion of the technology in the Tyros or Motif engines. Sounds are not good or bad at this level, they are either appropriate or inappropriate for what you are attempting to play at the moment.

Did you know the piano in the least expensive Yamaha PSR is a sample of a Yamaha CFIIIS Concert Grand? Does this mean that all Yamaha keyboards use it the same way? Of course, not. The word "Cool" is a user-friendly term that everyone can identify that something "extra" is going on. And certainly the implementation at different price points can be radically different... Make sense? You may be placing too much emphsis on the numbers of layers, etc. This has less to do with quality then you might think. Anyway, if you really liked a sound, and then found out it had less multi-samples than another, would you change your opinion based on just that fact? It's like judging sounds on size alone... Try to avoid that ... Listen like a musician, not a technician!

I realize that the number of voices, styles and number of features of the T5 is mind-blowingly massive, but I tend to focus on the pianos.

Curious statement. A dedicated piano emulation is then what you should be looking at... If that is your focus.

The DGX-series, the Tyros series are not even part of the same division in Yamaha as the Motif-series, the CP4 Stage, the VL series, and the other synthesizers and keyboards. While there are certainly customers that fall somewhere in-between the synthesizers and the arranger/home style keyboards, they have two distinctly identifiable customer bases. If you focus on the piano, know this: The division that does the synthesizers (and is responsible for this site: Yamaha Synth) make the CP4 Stage piano which represents new and different technology than is found in the keyboards from the division that does the DGX, the Tyros and other arranger and home style keyboards. Of course, there is some sharing of technology - but the "focus" and implementation of the features can be very different. The Synth customer wants to edit the piano, change the velocity switching point. The Arranger customer wants to play a song. (Yes, that's an oversimplification; and I beg your forgiveness on this, but I just want to draw two separate circles - each with a main FOCUS).

Also do you know if any of Yamaha's VL technology actually made it into the T5?

Yes, I do know, and NO there is no VL technology in any current product from Yamaha - the last one to contain that was the VL70-m (module).

Super Articulation 2 accomplishes some of what the VL did organically, via manipulation of Elements, thus the AEM technology.

Hope that clarifies some points for you.

Whether or not you were "impressed" with the velocity switching Voice in a particular low-end product is just a matter of your own personal taste - and does not really enter into a discussion of the technology in the Tyros or Motif engines. Sounds are not good or bad at this level, they are either appropriate or inappropriate for what you are attempting to play at the moment. And given the $700 price point (of the DGX) versus the many thousands of more dollars that go into the Tyros or Motif engines... your comparison has even less validity (really). If you are making comparisons like that, we doubt a serious discussion can take place here.

We're somehow not connecting here.

I admire the Tyros 5 and want all or most of the features it offers. ->I am a potential Tyros 5 customer<- I also have a Motif, a PLG150VL, an AN1x, and I like them all for different reasons. But I don't want to buy a $5000 instrument if the acoustic and electric pianos don't meet my quality standards.

I live in Wisconsin and have not found one dealer in the state that carries the Tyros, so I currently have no way of trying one in person. I have to rely on youtube demo videos, and data such as how many mutlisamples and velocity layers, which is one measure of quality of a sample-based piano, and which should be easy questions to answer (I was asking specifically about the acoustic and electric pianos on the Tyros 5. I am aware of some of the amazing things SA can do, but in the pianos you don't have fancy glissandos, trills, hammer on/off's, etc. so I guess I have to assume that for the acoustic pianos all that SA sample memory is going towards more velocity layers per key and more multisamples...)

When I look at the voice list of the Tyros 5 and see a voice named "Cool! SuitcaseSoft", I think my concern that there is a similarity between it and the 640's "Cool! Suitcase Electric Piano" is very valid. From my (the customer's) perspective it is confusing and an error in judgement on Yamaha's part to use the word "Cool!" in both products.

I'll try a different angle: Would a pro keyboard player, such as yourself, who likes the sound quality and playability of the Motif's electric piano presets (without modification), also like those of the Tyros 5?

And certainly the implementation at different price points can be radically different

I'm hoping that they are radically different, but I have no way of trying it for myself, that's why I'm asking.

Paul, Sorry, perhaps I miss understood your situation.

You want me to try on the shoes, and see if they fit your feet! 🙂

Let me try a different angle: Perhaps we can help you get it so you can try one out yourself... It's the only way for you to know!!! I don't really think it is an error in using the word "Cool!" in multiple products, it would certainly be if we anticipated people were making buying on the names used and specifications alone. But as a musical instrument manufacturer, we kind of assume that the musician will be playing the instrument before purchasing. I can see now how it would be confusing from the perspective of not being able to hear them, feel them and interact with them, yourself. That we have to fix!!!

It's a musical instrument - my opinion is mine (I learned many years ago to allow different opinions about things musical) I would not presume to tell you what you SHOULD like, pro or amateur. That's not fair to me and more importantly, it's not fair to YOU!

Thank you for having the faith in me to ask if I like the sound quality and play-ability of the sounds... but that is like asking me to try on shoes and asking me if they fit everyone my height. I simply respect your right to have your own opinion about the sounds.

Why don't I try to find a dealer willing to get a Tyros 5 in your area so you can try it out yourself. That's why we have dealers!
Let me make a few calls and hopefully I can find one near you willing to get one in (where in Wisconsin are you?)

Thanks! I'm in Madison, Wisconsin.

I sent you an email.

I have been able to try out the Tyros 5 for the past couple of weeks, and it is an magnificent instrument in many ways. I'm just amazed.

You're right Bad Mister, some of the SA and SA2 voices have a great mono/poly voice allocation algorithm.

It would be nice to eventually have E-Pianos on the Tyros that are on par with the quality of the current Motif series.

It's uncanny and will help to restore your faith that Yamaha continues to push the envelope (no pun intended) when it comes to musically useful behaviors. Innovations are us. 🙂

My faith has been restored, Hallelujah!!

Excellent! I'm glad it worked out. The electric pianos were a very big concentration for the Motif-series as the Wave ROM and programming efforts show. Tyros (and let me qualify this, this is my opinion) has a different focus in keyboard sounds. Tyros-series focuses on coming out of the "organ" mind-set. If you noticed the Tyros has a separate modeling tone wheel engine; it deals with words and concepts like "Registrations" (clearly an old pipe organ term), and has always inhabited a 61-note (and just now, at T5, a 76-note) organ/synth type action. It focuses its attention on a compelling 'live' song performance/entertainer interface.

Where the Motif-series, focuses on being a music production synthesizer (one where you literally can construct sounds 'from scratch') and even though very few Motif customers actually "sample", they enjoy/demand the ability to get down to the 'raw' data and they enjoy manipulating Voices from that level of detail. The approach in the Motif-series is, obviously (to me, at least) focused on the whole inside history the electric piano, from a piano player's point of view.

I may disagree with you on the electric pianos, but this does not change the fact that on the Motif (because it is a 'focus') you can readily adjust it, and there are simply more programmer's efforts available in the Preset library. But the fact that all of the latest Tyros5's are now "Cool" Voices, is a clear indicator (to me, at least) that there was a specific effort to upgrade the electric piano Voices specifically in this model. "Cool" again, translated means they have multiple velocity level sample sets so that "behavior" is mimicked.. You hear "barking" on velocity, details like key off noise and hammer knocks may be in play, etc. They are not simple one layer (one dimension) electric pianos. a specific effort was made to add dimension to the electric piano sounds... What I'm hearing from you is they "don't fit your feet". (That's ok.) And the Motif does offer the engine that allows more detailed user control (because that is a Motif-series focus).

The organ versus piano "thought process" is subtle but evident. The thing about either series, Tyros and Motif, Yamaha has left it open ended about the future sounds. Both series have an option to add to the instruments fundamental WAVE ROM via the expansion Flash Board route. So if the after market research demands more Motif like concentration on electric pianos for the Tyros... That can be accommodated. (And I think we've just heard you register a request for such a concentration... Thank you for your thoughts on this, it's part of the reason we have a site like this. And although this is a synthesis site, your message will be heard by those who are responsible for Tyros.

Glad you got to play one yourself. It is important to sit and spend time with it to grasp the type of focus the instrument has... There is more to it than just the sounds. The design of each, targets a specific overal use-case. This can only become clear by sitting in front of it.

Hope that helps. And thanks for your vote of confidence!

I BEG you, PLEASE convince Yamaha to include SA2 technology and voices in the Motif series so that more keyboard players get to play these amazing voices!!

The Tyros 5 is one of the most beautiful instruments I've every played. Confining SA2 voices to the "home" or "organ" crowd seems like a crime!

You do understand that a single SA2 Voice can be as large as some synthesizers entire Wave ROM? Depending on the sound being modeled and the performance gestures being emulated, some of these SA2 Voices can be absolutely humongous in size. And the programming is beyond most casual users.

You also have to take into account, the Motif-customer doesn't just want to "play" the Voice they want to be able to roll their sleeves up and edit the data - build their own. I would imagine that at some point (maybe) that might be able to happen. But at the current time the Articulation Element Modeling (SA2) is strictly non-user editable territory. There are lots of squirrels running on treadmills inside that engine!
🙂 lots of number crunching.

The SA2 Celtic Pipes, the SA2 Trombone, the SA2 Tenor Saxophones, the SA2 Clarinet, etc., are among the most expressive sample-based Voices I've ever played. They almost rival the organic sound of the VL1 engine... Well, for samples they come as close as anything has. And they do so without having to learn to use an alternate controller (like the Breath Controller).

Hopefully, in the future these technologies will trickle down to the programmable synthesizer market. Although the trend is toward easier, simpler, 'dumber' products that feed the instant gratification requirement. But we'll see. Yamaha certainly has no shortage of synthesis technologies available.

Yamaha certainly does have a LOT of synthesis technologies available. It is sad that Yamaha chooses not to exploit them at this time. I know I'm in the minority here, but VL, AN, FDSP, FM, RCM and FS1R formant technologies all going to waste!

Why doesn't Yamaha build a new multi-technolgy workstation like the EX5, but without the slow SCSI & underpowered DSP limitations?

With the current computing power available, Yamaha COULD build one of the most powerful synths/workstations ever, but for whatever reason, they have taken a back seat to Korg with the Kronos.

I know the VL didn't sell well, the EX5 did not sell well, and the FS1R sales were abysmal- I guess I just answered my own question, didn't I? It is amazing to me that I still use my VL1-m, love the sounds in my EX5R, and downloaded software for the FS1R (not made my Yamaha) that allows me to transform real samples into formant synthesis that makes my FS1R literally "talk"- some of the coolest vocoder type sounds ever, all without the downside of a sample that speeds up and slows down as you raise and lower the pitch. A Yamaha ad alluded to this capability, but never came right out and talked about it, now did Yamaha release any software for it. Even an ad calling it a rack mount DX-7 on steroids might have helped it sell better....easy for me to play armchair quarterback, huh?

Could it be that Yamaha was just too far ahead of the times, that people just didn't "get it"? Even in my market area VL did not sell well- not that the local dealer didn't TRY REALLY hard to demo it properly.

With the relative "youngsters" in Yamaha Japan's synth division, I am worried about the future of Yamaha as an innovator of synth technologies. Will we ever see another breakthrough powerhouse multi-technology workstation from Yamaha?