Well, I guess only BadMister can give some complete answers about how polyphony and note stealing works.

AFAIK, it shouldn't matter whether you use mono or stereo waveform according to the official Montage specs. Regarding dropouts, maybe the note stealing algorithm in a way where higher notes get lower priority. On a piano patch, note stealing would become much more obvious if low notes would be cut off. But I'm only guessing here. Theoretically, it should be possible to play an 8 part performance with all elements on, two notes at once.

Right - that's 128 stereo AWM waveforms. If you just use mono - this just means you don't get as much sound out but this doesn't double your polyphony because you're using "half" stereo.

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/intro-and-a-few-questions

Jason wrote:

Right - that's 128 stereo AWM waveforms. If you just use mono - this just means you don't get as much sound out but this doesn't double your polyphony because you're using "half" stereo.

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/intro-and-a-few-questions

Thanks for clarifying stereo awm2 polyphony is 128.

It however still begs the question why I'm not getting 128 polyphony though.

You can easily try this out on your own Montage, please reply with your results.

Testing 64 Elements:

- Start from INIT AWM2

- Switch on all Elements in Part 1.

- Turn down all Elements in Part 1

- Copy Part 1 to Part 2-8.

- Go to Part 8 and turn up Element 8

- Play two notes on the keyboard and listen to the results (only one plays on my Montage, the other note attempts to play but drops out immediately)

- Try turning up each of the Elements in Part 8 one by one and listen to see if you get two notes to play correctly (I don't)

- Try also listening to only Part 7 with same steps as Part 8. (It behaves the same way as Part 8, only one note plays correctly on my Montage).

- I can get two notes to play from Part 6 Element 8 all the way back to Part 1 Element 1 but they are slightly displaced to each other (not synchronous). That is, playing the two notes perfectly in unison time, the sonic output has the two notes slightly one after the other. This displacement of the two notes disappears if you mute the other Parts (freeing up Polyphony etc). This is just an observation, not a criticism.

So what is up with the polyphony? What happens on your Montage when you try this?

@Joe,

I cannot address drop-outs because I have no more access to the Yamaha-proprietary AWM2 sample resource algorithm than any other non-Yamaha-engineer would have. Take that with some slop - more than the engineering team at Yamaha may have some pieces. At any rate - I leave that part of the question to Yamaha. What I can address are incorrect assumptions that we do have some information about. So that's what I do - even if it isn't the holy grail.

I just performed the above 64 Element Polyphony test on a completely different Montage. I found identical behaviour. It is no different.

It seems both the Montages I've tested have the same polyphony. Neither have 128.

Joe

Yamaha. You Should have answered this by now. At least Acknowledged it. And Working on answer.
And. Excuse me for being(seeming). A little harsh sounding.
But it seems. I have seen. Too many post. Like this. Just ignored. Closing Your eyes to something.
does not make it go away.
The montage is a complex beast. And simply because of that. By the Time One Finds. The faults in it.
It is Way past the return time. And Believe me. Not true 128? I would have never bought it.(And if true. I want a Refund.).
If It does not have True 128 poly on each Side. That was the next problem. I would have run into.
1. We have a Polifany problem. ????
2. We have a Scene Flaw(not holding notes. When switched.). That has not been addressed in 6 OS updates.
This is a Serious Flaw. For a Player. There is no. Timing or Measure Solution for it.
3. We have a Flash memory problem. That no one. Thought about the future on.
And Will pretty well hide itself. Until out of Warranty. (The SSD drives. I had go bad were at 2 years and 3 years old.).
Then causing the owner. Not Yamaha. An expensive repair. That is. Just not Right.
At a Max Life of 10 years. Plan on Replacing The Flash Memory. Every 7 years. So far. That is when 50% go bad
4. The surprise MIDI situation. Oh. Sorry. You can not do That, That, That or That.
As we are using Midi internally. You have to do Everything on Channel 1. * A Person That See's MIDI IN/OUT. Is totally Correct. To Assume. It has Normal MIDI. Especially. Since. There is No Disclaimer about Midi.
There are apparently. A lot of other smaller things Wrong. But I am not going to search again for things. I saw in the past. Too much work.
As I have stated before. The Montage. Was Brought out. Way Before it was ready. I knew it. When I first sat at one (1.1 OS).
And I did not look at one to buy until. After 1.5 was released. And I wrongfully assumed.
Everything Could be Taken care of. Because It Had a Updatable OS.
Now it seems. It should have been. Completely Re-thought out and delayed a year or so.
Yamaha. Should have Used this new Tech. On a Motif XG. The world Would have welcomed and accepted that.
The Kronos. Performance wise(Even if it looks outdated). Is light years ahead of the Montage.
And Still outsells the Montage. And It shouldn't. Except for The Montage problems.
Because. It does not have any of these problems/Flaws. Yes it is Difficult to Have a good workflow. But it Works right.
The Super Knob. Is beyond Brilliant. But there seems to be. WAY Too much being Sacrificed. For Its implementation.
An Idea Here. Give the SN only 6. And Make the First 10 Channels of Midi. Standard.
Yes. That is a Total rewrite. For Midi implementation.
Yes. That would Mean 10 channels of Performances. Had to Be Standard midi. IE: Like Drums. Always on Channel 10. (Standard)
But. You need to Do Something Big. To get some Standard Midi working. And that is just. MIDI.

Joe wrote:

I just performed the above 64 Element Polyphony test on a completely different Montage. I found identical behaviour. It is no different.

It seems both the Montages I've tested have the same polyphony. Neither have 128.

Joe

It may be that the Montage just can't handle simultaneous playback of so many Elements at once (particularly of samples that it is transposing up x amount). It may indeed have 128 polyphony if each instance of polyphony was added incrementally instead of all at once like I am experimenting with.

My tests seems to suggest this. For example, I've found that I'll get dropouts when triggering 96 polyphony at once (and less too, this is just an example) but I won't get dropouts when incrementally adding keys until 96 polyphony is reached.

However, I've found that even when adding lots of Elements incrementally, I'll still get dropouts when playing high notes vs low notes, suggesting that the Montage is struggling to do all of the computation of transposition of so many Elements at once.

Suggesting that 128 Polyphony may exist no problem providing that the 128 isn't triggered all at once nor transposed up by x amount.

And yes indeed, it would be good to hear from Yamaha on this, as well as any other user experiments.

It's very fast and easy to do the test I detailed above so if you're sitting at your Montage and have a spare 1 minute, you can perform this test..

Joe

I will have time on weekend to try this out. However, I completely agree, Yamaha is obliged to give us an answer about this because if the facts are wrong, all buyers of the Montage could according to the law return their keyboards back to the shop and ask for a full refund because we were buying the item believing that the official specs are true and correct.

It may be that the Montage just can't handle simultaneous playback of so many Elements at once (particularly of samples that it is transposing up x amount). It may indeed have 128 polyphony if each instance of polyphony was added incrementally instead of all at once like I am experimenting with.

This doesn't really make sense. Polyphony means how many single voices/tones/elements/oscillators are able to be active at once. It doesn't matter whether you achieve this by pressing 128 keys at once or incrementally. Also, Yamaha doesn't state that the polyphony depends on the processor load or how we play the instrument.

I would really expect BadMister to ask back the Yamaha engineers about this and give us a feedback. As a customer I can except an excuse or an explanation, but silence and ignorance would motivate me very highly to return the keyboard for a full refund.

+1

this was my feeling when one of the first time I try to use massive element polyphony ! not tested in a scientific way (like Joe) but I feel something strange in the note dropout.

let's wait...

Sladjan. When You bring up a Law. Please Reference The Law in Question.
I believe. What You said is true. But It gets all garbled. When The Actual Law is not sited.
Now. Saying that it is True. Yamaha would fight this. Tooth and Nail. It would then Take a Class Action. LawSuit. To win.
So 7-10 years down the road. A settlement. And the Lawyers. Take most of the $.
If You are past the 30 day return policy. Of most stores.
To return Your montage to the store. You Bought it from. Would not be Possible. They Would say It is Yamaha's Problem.
And Even Companies. That are caught. Dead to rights. Still fight it in a legal battle.
Yes I would love for Yamaha. To do the Right thing here.
And Let us Return the Montage. Because There are Also. Many Other problems With it.
I Just Do not see it happening.
(Let's just say. A lot was hidden. That You could not possibly have. Thought of the questions. Prior to buying it. And You can not understand. The information on this Forum. Unless You have one.).

However. If You live in a State like mine(OHIO). Small Claims court. Allows us to Sue.
International Companies. For Product. Misrepresentation. The top limit here is $2500 or $3000. Companies. Hate Small claims Courts.
Cause They Usually lose. And it is very costly for the Company. And it is Fast.
And The loser. Has to pay All the Court and Legal Expenses(Here).
So check your. State laws on small claims. * I am in no way Giving Legal Advice. Just public information.

Hi Tom,
I live in a EU country and the consumer rights are pretty much clear and a company, regardless if small or big, has to comply to the law. My native language is not english, so I can easily find the required information in my mother language but not so easy in english. However, I find some information in english what you are obliged as a seller, so let me quote:

EU law also stipulates that you must give the consumer a minimum 2-year guarantee (legal guarantee) as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised.

I made the last part bold.

In the EU the seller is responsible for the product. Not the company which produces an item. I as a customer require my rights from the seller I bought the item from, not from the company who produced the item:

If the product you sold turns out to be faulty — or doesn't look or work as advertised — within the timeframe of the legal guarantee, you are responsible for this. In some countries this can also be the case if you are the manufacturer or importer.

Again, I made the bold part.

And finally, here is what the EU law says to the sellers:

If you are a retailer, your customers can ask for redress under the legal guarantee provided by EU law - if an item:

- doesn't match the product description
- has different qualities from the model advertised or shown to the client
- is not fit for purpose - either its standard purpose or a specific purpose ordered by the customer which you accepted
- doesn't show the quality and performance normal in products of the same type
- wasn't installed correctly - either by you, or by the customer, due to shortcomings in the instructions

See the first reason: if the Montage doesn't match the product description, there is nothing to discuss about and there are no lawyers on this planet who could help the seller out of the situation in the EU.

And finally, here are the instructions to the sellers/stores about the customer rights:

Your customers have the right to ask you to do any of the following without any charge (for postage, labour, material, etc.):

repair the product
replace the product
reduce the price
cancel the contract and reimburse them in full (in some countries, the sales contract cannot be cancelled if the fault is minor, e.g. scratch on a CD case)

Again, I made the bold. Regarding the last info, this is not a specific list in which order something has to be done, the customer is free to select any of these solutions during the warranty time. That means, I can insist on getting a full refund instead of repairing the product at any time during my warranty period.

Here is the link:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/client-guarantee-redress/index_en.htm

This law is valid in 28 european countries and I believe it is probably not that much different in the US.

Fact is:
If a product doesn't work as advertised or claimed, at least within the warranty time (24 months in the EU), I'm free to ask the vendor to either repair the product, replace it, reduce the price or give me a full refund. This has nothing to do directly with Yamaha. I made a contract with my vendor. The vendor/distributor has to see with yamaha how to get this solved, but it is not my business as a customer.

Finally:
It is important that we all understand that our wishes about how the keyboard functions or behave is not the same and comparable to situations where the keyboard works or behaves differently from what was communicated to the customer. A bug in the software where something doesn't work as elegantly as we would like or where the situation can be solved by a workaround is certainly not a reason to return a item back to the seller, nor is it supported by law. But if the product doesn't work as advertised and communicated to the customer, this is legally a clear situation in the EU and it is quite easy to return the item to the seller/shop.

This is what the law says. But I won't claim anything before I make some tests with my Montage and see how far I can come with my polyphony test or until BadMister (finally) jumps in and explains who to conduct a proper polyphony test in case we make a mistake or in case we have overseen something in our tests.

y'all are crazy. Tom, your periods are out of control, bro.
Do you guys actually make music, or are you just here for science?
i do find this interesting, and am interested in yamaha's official response, but returning the montage or a class action lawsuit seems a little ridiculous.
anyways, may the polyphony be with all of you.

Yes. I get my periods out of place. I am old and Broke-down. And Take Meds. Do not need the Grammar police.
Yes I write music. Everyday. But I am very concerned about. The Montage.
In my State. Just the MIDI misrepresentation. Would be All the Cause. I need for Yamaha to lose. There is a MIDI standard. And Yamaha.
Did not Publish a Disclaimer on The Midi not Working to Standards.(Because. Yamaha Montage uses up midi internally).
So if You see Midi IN/Out/Thru. Legally. You are safe to Assume. That it is Standard MIDI.
But the Really big concerns.
Are Flash memory. And Now Poly. And I could go on.....
3-5-7 years from now. Are You going to be happy to spend $300- to $500 to replace a $5.00 part.
Because. That is exactly What is going to happen. With Flash memory. It is Guaranteed to die within 10 years.
10 years. Is the Max life. Your Montage. Relies Solely on Flash Memory.
Sladjan
I do not think We have those protections. In The USA. But I will check into it.
Thanks for the info.