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Time Signatures Issue...Resolved

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Phil
 Phil
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Can't find the method to change the time signature / meter, example: 4/4, 6/8, etc in the record section, tempo page or anywhere. How is this done please?
I had a sequence stuck at 9/16 which occurred through no understanding on my part. Couldn't change it but, when I deleted the song, the seq. function defaulted to 4/4.
Does the sequencer allow/save individual time signatures?
Also, I thought that the Quantize function allowed pre or post, which is it please?

 
Posted : 29/01/2018 11:35 pm
Bad Mister
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Time Signature must be set before... much like when writing a chart, you draw the framework before you start entering notes. You cannot change the Time Signature after you record, and have it make sense.

From the [PERFORMANCE (HOME)] screen of the Performance you wish to record, touch “Play/Rec” to view the Song Recorder screen.
Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby.

Now you can set the Time Signature, Tempo that will be memorized by the Song.

Also, I thought that the Quantize function allowed pre or post, which is it please?

You can ‘quantize’ on the way in (pre)...

We don’t call this a Sequencer (although in the common language one might refer to any device that records MIDI a Sequencer) we are purposefully stressing that this is not built to be a record and then edit after-the-fact device. It lends it self as a great scratchpad Recorder... you can record all the Parts under KBD CTRL. to overdub, turn KBD CTRL Off for already recorded Parts.

In most typical MIDI record situations, the Keyboard transmits first to the Sequencer track, the Sequencer track then transmits the data thru to the Tone Generator. The “Performance Record” is laid out differently- the Keyboard transmits to the Tone Generator, while Recorder documents each active Part to a separate track, on a separate MIDI channel.

 
Posted : 30/01/2018 1:15 am
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With the future Global Tempo function, will you be able to choose the time signature? Especially when selecting metronome always.

 
Posted : 30/01/2018 4:13 am
Phil
 Phil
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Hi Phil:
in your response ..."Time Signature must be set before"....
Yes, thank you. I know this. Pardon me but, I did not explain correctly. Here is what is going on:
1st, all of my songs were at 9/16. I did not actuate this entry.

Also: as you said..."From the [PERFORMANCE (HOME)] screen of the Performance you wish to record, touch “Play/Rec” to view the Song Recorder screen.
Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby. Now you can set the Time Signature Tempo that will be memorized by the Song."
No parameter field showing time sig, according to your directions, that is in standby mode will allow any reaction to the touch screen. in other words, the field is non responsive even-though all other touch entries behave normally. The box shows 4/4 and will not react. Please advise.

In your last paragraph, you state... "In most typical MIDI record situations, the Keyboard transmits first to the Sequencer track, the Sequencer track then transmits the data thru to the Tone Generator. The “Performance Record” is laid out differently- the Keyboard transmits to the Tone Generator, while Recorder documents each active Part to a separate track, on a separate MIDI channel"
Please explain a little more. Are you saying a key-down/note-on event connects directly to tone generation 1st, then the recorder next, or do both processes occur simultaneously?
The mention of parts going to different tracks is a different subject than which process occurs 1st, especially since this is not the only/1st sequencer/MIDI recorder that has done this so, not sure what you saying or what your point is here.

 
Posted : 30/01/2018 9:28 pm
Jason
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Not sure if any of the information here is helpful: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/change-time-signature-on-built-in-metronome

 
Posted : 31/01/2018 8:25 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

Pardon me but, I did not explain correctly. Here is what is going on:
1st, all of my songs were at 9/16. I did not actuate this entry.

If all of your songs were at 9/16 when you loaded them to the keyboard, it's because the time signature was written before the data was recorded. That is true throughout MIDI devices. Each measure in a Song is set to a time signature and this framework is setup before you record into it. If you have not changed the time signature the default is 4/4.

I mentioned the way in which the MONTAGE recorder function is different from a synth that has a built-in Sequencer. The Motif XF was constructed around a sequencer, MONTAGE is NOT.

You cannot create a Time Signature map ahead of time, as you could on the XF..
So your files were all 9/16 and you didn't do it, well neither did your MONTAGE

 
Posted : 31/01/2018 9:20 am
Phil
 Phil
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Phil, I did not create the 9/16. They were recorded by me on the montage at 4/4, then one day they were all at 9/16 and as I have already stated ..I can not change the field according to your directions. It was clearly spelled out that I followed your directions...

You stated.... "Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby. Now you can set the Time Signature Tempo that will be memorized by the Song."

As I have already said , that field does not accept input. it does not react while all other accessible boxes do so, recommendations please?

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 1:03 am
Phil
 Phil
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HI Jason. Thanks for the link but, it says the same thing. Bad Mister explains:
..."Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby. Now you can set the Time Signature Tempo that will be memorized by the Song."

As you see from my response, twice, that the parameter box for time sig. will not allow input.
Its not a touch screen issue, everything else responds in that area on other pages. Can you try it and see how it responds?

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 6:09 am
Jason
Posts: 7896
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... ignoring comments on the previous link (I need to have my keyboard setup to test some things).

However, just sticking with the recording options (not [UTILITY]):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku39jiK7x8Y

This link shows that before you start recording anything - with an empty MIDI song - when you press the record button from any screen - which is a shortcut to bring up the recorder (record button starts flashing) - the Time Signature box has a down arrow and is not blacked-out allowing changing the time signature.

After you start recording any gestures (after pressing the play button to start actually recording) the time signature box is locked out for that song.

The time signature option therefore appears to be a PRE-record setting and cannot be edited after the fact.

In order to change the time signature of MIDI files after-the-fact, you may need to utilize computer software which allows editing these MIDI file data fields. Or a hex editor.

http://midi.teragonaudio.com/tech/midifile/time.htm
http://www.ccarh.org/courses/253/handout/smf/
http://www.recordingblogs.com/sa/Wiki/topic/MIDI-Time-Signature-meta-message

... according to what I know and without the benefit of checking with testing to be sure (meaning the following is theoretical) - if you start with a MIDI file from the net or some other source and load this file - you are unlikely to be able to change the time signature on Montage because this option only appears to be available with an empty song buffer. Therefore, you'll be "stuck" with the time signature embedded in the MIDI file (right or wrong) when loaded. This is where external editing of the file to correct the time signature may be required.

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 2:56 pm
Bad Mister
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Phil, I did not create the 9/16. They were recorded by me on the montage at 4/4, then one day they were all at 9/16 and as I have already stated

Yes you did state that, and it is clear that you have a mystery or a bug or you are mistaken. I completely believe you. Why would you be posting if it is not what you see?

..I can not change the field according to your directions. It was clearly spelled out that I followed your directions...

But you missed the point of what I’m saying. You cannot change the Time Signature of an already recorded piece of data.

The only time you can set the Time Signature is BEFORE (caps to, again, stress *when* you can set the the Time Signature). You cannot change an existing Time Signature. You can set the Time Signature BEFORE you record a NEW SONG.

The default Time Signature is 4/4. Every measure is preset as 4/4... this is true throughout MIDI.
I gave the analogy of writing a chart to make the point - the Time Signature map is like drawing up a chart, with the measures drawn ahead of time - BEFORE you fill in the notes. The Click (metronome) counts according to this map, which is side-by-side with the Tempo map.

Like Time Signature all measures default, initially, to the same TEMPO... (they both are meta events that will persist, that is, remain until changed, by another Meta Event that tells it to count differently and/or to change speed). So each and every measure is defined ahead of time... BEFORE you enter data into it.

When you create a NEW SONG
Press [Rec]
You are offered to set Time Signature (4/4), Set a TEMPO (brought in from the current PERFORMANCE, and the Quantize option.

It is here you can SET the TIME SIGNATURE.

Rule: Time Signature in MONTAGE can be set BEFORE you record
What that means in your situation: either you recorded initially at 4/4 and the “bug” changed the Time Signature to 9/16, or the Data was placed in another device that overdubbed new meta events into the data file to change the Time Signature structure.

Rule: once recorded, the option to alter the Time Signature is grayed Out, this is completely normal. Because Time Signature must be documented BEFORE you record into the structure.

You stated.... "Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby. Now you can set the Time Signature Tempo that will be memorized by the Song."

And I stand by that statement as long as you are constructing a new recording. Because.... Time Signature must be set BEFORE you record into the structure.

As I have already said, that field does not accept input. it does not react while all other accessible boxes do so, recommendations please?

If you want to fix the Time Signature you will need to fix the Meta Events in the File. This must be done on a computer Sequencer. The MONTAGE has no ability to edit your MIDI data in the file. It can only write the Meta Event data BEFORE you record! (again).

If you ever figure out how the data changed, let us know. But as I have said consistently the Time Signature of 9/16 is a completely viable Time Signature, and must be set BEFORE recording. Unless it is a mystery, a bug, or you did it and didn’t notice (although the metronome would have counted in 9/16...and would be extremely hard to ignore... so let’s go with "mystery" or 'bug'. Cue the theme music to "Stranger Things..."

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 4:18 pm
Phil
 Phil
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Thanks for your efforts to make sure I completely understand.
I do. It must be before I record, and I do understand that it must be a new, not previously recorded piece. I'm trying to create a new recording from scratch.
I Press the [REC] button to enter Record Standby. Now, I attempt to set the Time Signature of a new, never recorded song,and the Time Signature will not accept input, meaning the Time Sig box doesn't respond to the first press, thus no ability to enter parameters.
Would you recommend saving the complete backup file, reinitialize, then see? I think this should be a good idea.
Also, I changed the title of this post because I don't have issues with TEMPO, sorry I didn't catch that Initially.

To Jason. None of the data was ever constructed other than on Montage, nor has any song created therein, ever been transferred to or from. I think the Montage needs to be burped, as this is the only thing, that I have found to be, not functioning.

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 7:36 pm
Phil
 Phil
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Did a back up, re-loaded OS. Everything is fine. Tested Time Sig Box with two new songs w/different meters. Working as advertised.
Thanks for making sure everything was perfectly clear

 
Posted : 01/02/2018 9:52 pm
Jason
Posts: 7896
Illustrious Member
 

No problem - glad you got that resolved. When this kind of stuff happens (backup, re-install firmware, etc) we would generally call this a single-unit failure that could not be reproduced elsewhere. Problem with those kinds of issues is that you lose some data on a possible real issue like "stand on your foot, touch your nose, press the [STORE] button -- and this causes the time signature box to go wacky." The important thing is you've cleared the hurdle of the gremlin and hopefully this experience doesn't bite too many other users or is otherwise never going to happen with v2.0 and later.

 
Posted : 02/02/2018 12:19 am
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