It could be a bit of both. The primary adjustment you should make should be to the global VELOCITY in [UTILITY] mode. I highly recommend you explore the two "wide" curves.... Then, if further tweaks are needed tackle the per Performance Velocity Sensitivity Depth and Offset.

These two parameters are to be used together to adjust the response. If you wish to adjust the Velocity Sensitivity to apply a "hard" curve you do by raising the DEPTH value - as you do it will become more difficult to get loud. In fact you will not be able to reach maximum output (if used alone); the master volume is not going to give back the timbre because timbre change is controlled via Velocity not Volume. Use the Velocity Sensitivity Offset to return your timbre change and increase the Velocity impact on timbre at higher values Adjust it by lowering the OFFSET value.

DEPTH = 64; OFFSET = 64 would give you normal response
DEPTH = 85; OFFSET = 43 would give you a curve where it would be harder to get loud.

Values of both should equal 128 to ensure full range.

Bad Mister's Tip on using OFFSET/DEPTH
As the OFFSET is lowered (from 64) be aware that it dramatically affects your soft strikes, I would concentrate (not on your hard playing when setting this, but rather on how soft you play when you want the piano to speak pianissimo) the timbre will change on your soft strikes such that it will make them less bright, naturally. At some point it will be too rounded... Stop. Then use the DEPTH value that adds to 128

If your DEPTH value causes the total to exceed 128, you will reach maximum volume quicker... If your DEPTH value caused the total to fall short of 128, you will not ever be able to reach maximum volume output... and the timbre (brightness) will not return.

Play it for a while, ten-fifteen minutes, then tweak it some more... Like finding your SLEEP NUMBER, try it out. Try it on a variety of song titles. Let us know

Thanks for the clear explanation of offset/depth. I have found that 58/70 suites my playing of piano sounds.
This is better than the global velocity settings where the two wide settings don't make as much difference.

Tony

I am like yourself tony, I have a heavy touch when playing live.
I have my cp40 set on normal touch globally and cf wise Depth 66 and offset 62, to me this works great.
It is subtle, but for me it's not so much the right hand, but the left is more controllable with these settings(when playing boogie).
I'm really glad of your post as I've been struggling with the feel, and of course the sound to key bed touch in the two models differ.
If not for this post I may have sold the unit. Now it's a keeper
Cheers
Tony

Is there a combination of Vel Depth and Vel Offset that somewhat approximates the effect of the wide1 Vel curve setting? I like wide1 for the acoustic piano voice that I use, but not for other voices, and unfortunately that parameter can't be attached to a Performance (right?), it has to be changed manually. I want all my velocity settings to be attached to Performances so that they change instantly when I switch from one to another. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Any thoughts?

You are trying on the shoes... By that I mean, the Velocity Depth and Velocity Offset are the parameters (described above) that can be "attached to Performances so that they change instantly when (you) switch from one to another." Learn to work with them until you get the response you like, then press [STORE] to write it to the Performance. Once the shoe fits, you are the only one who will know how it feels, so when you get the right response for how YOU are performing on a sound, only YOU will know it feels right.

Thanks, but that's not really what I was asking. I'm asking whether the wide1 Velocity curve can be approximately recreated using Vel Depth and Vel Offset, and if so, what combination of settings will accomplish that. Thanks.

I read your question and gave you the best answer I can, my "thoughts". If it can or cannot is of little concern, you have to still play the sound and try to adjust the result yourself. How you play a pad sound is going to be different from how you attack a brass sound, which is different from how you attack an electric piano sound... And so on... If you are using Wide 1 as your overall curve then you need to experiment with the Velocity Depth and Offset to get what YOU like on a per sound basis. Answers are not always black or white, yes or no. And with velocity curves it varies depending on the sound and HOW you are approaching playing it. Again, my thoughts, but close to reality.

Sorry, I appreciate your replies, and I'm probably just not being clear. Let me try again.

I use the "normal" Vel Curve for everything ... all voices, all Performances.

I've experimented a lot with Vel Depth and Vel Offset for different voices and have a number of saved Performances that include custom settings of those two parameters, different ones for different voices. (For example, I have some of my Rhodes EP Performances designed so that I get a "bark" at lower velocities.) So I do understand that process, and I understand that it is a matter of personal taste.

What I'm asking is something very specific about the wide1 Velocity Curve. Is that curve simply a combination of a particular velocity depth and offset (it would be nice if the Yamaha manual included illustrations of the Vel Curves, but it doesn't), which I can recreate using specific Vel Depth and Vel Offset settings ... while still leaving Vel Curve on normal? Whether it can or cannot is, actually, of great concern and interest to me, because I want to create a Performance using the CFX voice that includes the same curve that would be in effect if I switched to wide1 Vel Curve. Why? Because I do in fact like that particular curve a lot for that particular voice, but it's not practical for me to use a curve that I have to manually select every time. It needs to be saved with the Performance.

Probably needless to say, I've tried to recreate the wide1 curve through trial and error tweaking of Vel Depth and Vel Offset, but haven't been successful yet. I was hoping that you might have access to information about the wide1 curve that's more revealing than the Yamaha manual, with better details. The manual just says "wide1: The Hard curve makes it more difficult to produce high velocities across the entire keyboard."

(By the way, I note that the manual says, regarding the wide2 Vel Curve, "wide2: The Wide curve accentuates your playing strength by producing lower velocities in response to softer playing and louder velocities in response to harder playing. As such, you can use this setting to expand the dynamic range of your performances." To me, that sounds like the wide2 curve (which I'm not interested in) has more to it than just the kind of simple linear depth and offset values that could be recreated with the Vel Depth and Vel Offset settings. The same thing may or may not be true of wide1 (which I am interested in), but the manual is unrevealing.)

To put it another way, I'm not trying to get help figuring out what I would personally like for my "go-to" CFX Performance. I already know I like the wide1 curve for that particular voice, I just need help figuring out the Vel Depth and Curve settings that will produce that result ... if in fact that is possible. I also realize that additional tweaking of those values may be needed. Thanks!

Correct. WIDE 1 is simply the "hard" curve where it takes getter effort (velocity input) to achieve volume output. This curve is appropriate for those who are or tend to be heavy-handed. If playing Rachmaninoff's C#minor Prelude, you must reach back and deliver ffff quadruple forte - to perform this on any electronic based instrument, that effort is maximum and should be just reaching Velocity 127. If your ff double forte effort reaches 127, your instrument will have no more to give you no matter how much effort you put into playing. So the object is to adjust your instrument's response to effort input so that you do not reach maximum 127 before you musically require it.

The NORMAL curve is basically linear in nature. For each unit increase in effort(velocity input) there is a corresponding increase in volume output.

The Normal Curve is equivalent to 64/64 for Velocity Depth/Velocity Offset. For each unit Velocity In, there is a unit increase in Volume Out.

As in my response to the original poster in this thread...
"These two parameters are to be used together to adjust the response. If you wish to adjust the Velocity Sensitivity to apply a "hard" curve you do by raising the DEPTH value - as you do it will become more difficult to get loud. In fact you will not be able to reach maximum output (if used alone); the master volume is not going to give back the timbre because timbre change is controlled via Velocity not Volume. Use the Velocity Sensitivity Offset to return your timbre change and increase the Velocity impact on timbre at higher values Adjust it by lowering the OFFSET value.

Values of both should equal 128 to ensure full range."

Until this thread, I kinda just stumbled upon a stock setting that delivered what I wanted. Now, I'm going to fix what ain't broke. ...

I understand the Utility velocity curves (normal, wide 1, wide 2) apply to the entire instrument, I.e., all performances. I also understand each Performance has its own unique Velocity Depth & Offset parameters.

Can a Performance's velocity depth & offset parameters achieve the exact same results as the Utility velocity curve setting?

Currently, for my CFX sound, I set both the Utility velocity curve, and then, I tweak the performance depth & offset. (Actually, by this point, I use the same settings, and have saved them in Utility and in Performance.)

This thread's got me thinking that perhaps I should leave the Utility velocity curve as normal, and do all my velocity adjustments in the Performance Depth & Offset settings. If anything, so that I develop a more accurate correlation between the timbral-velocity results and the parameters.

I surely haven't posed my question clearly, but I'll give it a go.

Thank you.

I am trying to understand the interplay between the Utility Area>General>Velocity Curve and the Performance>Part Edit Area>Play Mode>Velocity Depth & Velocity Offset parameters.

My hypothesis is that the Utility's Velocity Curve does act on, or shape, a Part's Velocity Depth & Offset settings. And if the Utility's Velocity Curve is "normal" then the Part's Velocity Depth & Offset settings will only produce a linear, one-to-one, velocity "curve", or rather a simple straight line.
The only way to get an exponential curve, or curves, is by employing the Utility's Velocity Curve "wide 1" & "wide 2" options.

So, the Utility's Velocity Curve and a Part's Velocity Depth & Offset settings work together to govern the CP4's velocity-to-sound response. It's clearly possible that only adjusting one of those will yield satisfying results. Sometimes I only adjust the Velocity Curve. Sometimes, I only adjust the Part's Velocity Depth & Offset.

My preferred CFX experience is with both areas adjusted.

My question is…. Why is that when I adjust the Velocity Depth & Velocity Offset to a single voice, the edited settings affects ALL voices?

For example: I selected E.Piano1 Voice “01: 71 Rd1”. I adjusted the VelDpth=45 and VelOff = 85 to get more ‘bite’ out of the sound at harder velocities. Now, every voice on the CP4 has the exact same VelDepth and VelOff settings.

joel wrote:

My question is…. Why is that when I adjust the Velocity Depth & Velocity Offset to a single voice, the edited settings affects ALL voices?

For example: I selected E.Piano1 Voice “01: 71 Rd1”. I adjusted the VelDpth=45 and VelOff = 85 to get more ‘bite’ out of the sound at harder velocities. Now, every voice on the CP4 has the exact same VelDepth and VelOff settings.

First of all, there's a couple of things to keep in mind ...

- On the CP4 you're always in a Performance. There is no "voice mode" or "voice edit mode". When you power up the CP4, by default you're in Performance #001, and any changes you make (other than Utility changes), like changing voices, or changing VelDepth and VelOfst settings, are edits to Performance #001, unless you first change to another Performance. You can see that you're editing because the little "E" for Edit shows in the display as soon as you change anything.

- Anytime you select a new voice, that voice brings along with it certain factory-default settings, including insertion effects and some but not all of the settings that are accessed by EDIT > PART > PLAY MODE. The VelDepth and VelOfst settings are on the list of things that are not changed by selecting a new voice.

So with all that in mind ... If you just turn on the CP4, select EPiano 1 Voice 01, and change the VelDepth and VelOfst settings, those are all (unsaved) edits to Performance #001. Then, if you select some other voice, you're still editing Performance #001, and you'll find that the new voice has brought along its default insertion effects, and some other default settings, but not VelDepth and VelOfst. The changes you already made to those two settings in Performance #001 are still in effect, so they'll affect any new voice you select. Those changes will go away, though, if you select a new Performance.

Best thing to do, if you've got personalized settings you like for a particular voice, like EPiano 1 Voice 01, is to save it as a Performance. Then, when you want to play that voice, just select that Performance and all your settings are instantly in effect.

Bottom line, the answer to your question -- "Why is that when I adjust the Velocity Depth & Velocity Offset to a single voice, the edited settings affects ALL voices?" -- is that in fact you're not adjusting the Velocity Depth & Velocity Offset to a single voice, and there's actually no way to do that. Rather, you're adjusting those settings in a single Performance, and those particular settings remain in effect within that Performance even when new voices are selected.

Hope that helps.

Hey "M",

Thanks for info and tip. Yes, I ended up editing a performance the and then Storing-&-Renaming it to a different location; and it solved the Velocity issue.

thanks again,

later,