What I wrote before it lost my "brilliant" stuff?

Gut feeling is the UI on CK is better or easier but the CK61 is a little less professional or considerably vs the YC73.

If sound quality and built and beauty come first then I probably wouldn't keep the CK. It's fun and cool and all but YC quality has ruined it for me.

The CK primary selling point is ease of use and portability and a lot of really good voices in 3 layers. For the street or garage jam it's awesome but for the studio or a real stage not so much. Maybe the 88 feels better but I haven't seen it yet.

Maybe they held off on a CK73/76 to make that a more professional version. But if it sounded better people might get upset such as a better internal sound design. I'm pretty sure the engineering was lessened in ways because of the target price point.

IF the YC had all of the additional CK voices at the YC quality level I'd be pretty content. YC is missing a lot of stuff when you compare them. A YC+ would be amazing and I know I'm repeating, repeating myself.

Lots to like about both but I'm not sure combining them works now except for a YC double manual. I think if I learn to ignore the sound quality difference and toy-ish feel it will be fine. Now I'm thinking Montage + or Mosaic etc. hopefully with the YC drawbars onboard.

[quotePost id=121533]I used expensive headphones and JBL monitors playing the same identically named voice sent out of CK into YC and turning off effects, filter, EG, EQ etc.,,,Obviously the YC has something extra going on. A fraction smoother, rounder, cleaner, fuller than the CK. Not sure if it's PAC or internal electronic handling or the samples themselves or all of the above. [/quotePost]
It would be an interesting experiment to run a MIDI cable from the YC to the CK, and see if the CK sounds better when played from the YC's keys. It's not impossible that what you're hearing is just the difference in the velocity mapping of the two actions.

Yes that's exactly what I have done setting the YC and CK to "soft" and although I do also play on both sets of keys I have them MIDI connected because originally I had the YC73 playing one voice and then I had 2 or 3 layered using the CK. The L/R is output from CK and input directly into the YC. I also auditioned everything both ways using both sets of keys or just flipping the YC all voices off and play the CK on the YC73 keys.

Then I got more technical and selected Identical voice that they shared and played both back and forth on the YC keys. I had to make sure I turned off all voices when comparing each individual sound. I can swap back and forth pretty quickly with push/flip of each.

I doubt someone could tell over a video comparison but maybe if I used a line input into my quality recorder. The EQ and effects could be higher grade on YC but I had to turn everything off to hear the raw samples/waveform.

I started with what I thought are the most difficult waveforms to reproduce such as pianos, EPs, strings, etc.

Additional setup info: I have double pairs of JBL 4309s running through two monoblock outlaw amps about 200watts RMS each independent channel fed by a signature Ican balanced XLR preamp. The difference is easier to detect verses headphones I guess because those 4309s reveal everything good or bad.

For example the same upright piano is a lot different assuming the waveform is the same. YC sounds more like a real piano and CK sounds more fake. It reminds me of the Genos pianos that just didn't have that depth and authenticity, I always found myself not using them. Keep in mind that a kick-butt audio system if flat and true lies a lot less than if you just hook these up to an elcrapo speaker system that you bought for $200. Don't even think about the CK onboard speakers costing upwards of $40 because they probably lie a lot. I know they serve the obvious purpose which isn't intricate audiophile level sound dissection and examination.

Both voices are output via XLR into the same preamp and then headphones and speakers.

Please specify the EXACT models and config you are using for the YC and CK instruments.

The YC owner's manual DOES refer to XLR balanced outputs but the CK owner's manual specifies UNBALANCED outputs.
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1547682/ck88_en_om_b0.pdf

OUTPUT [L/MONO]/[R] (6.3 mm, standard phone jacks, unbalanced)

I'm trying to reconcile that doc info with your statement that you made above that 'Both voices are output via XLR'.

Depending on the cables you use and the actual connections the use of unbalanced cables with balanced connections can cause signal issues.
-- edited the above to say 'unbalanced cables with balanced' instead of the other way around.

Unbalanced cables are used coming out of the audio output L/R jacks of the CK and are input into the YC (not sure but assuming those are unbalanced input jacks probably TR not TRS but the manual doesn't actually state "unbalanced" for jack "10") however the YC has the ability to send both signals of the YC and CK out via the XLR into the preamp via jack "11". I'm not using the unbalanced outs only the XLR of the YC for optimum sound quality.

Ultimately any audible difference is minimal, probably less than anyone can detect between the YC & CK. I tried it again and it's difficult to detect any difference maybe sustained notes or attacks. I'll keep comparing. I'd be best if someone could try it too just as a double check concerning my personal perception. Heck Yamaha could make a statement they are identical but probably won't.

Well it's hard to give definitive answers without knowing the details like I ask you to provide

Please specify the EXACT models and config you are using for the YC and CK instruments.

Different models of an instrument can, and often do, have different audio specs.

Unbalanced cables are used coming out of the audio output L/R jacks of the CK and are input into the YC

Which means you are NOT feeding the CK into the preamp using XLR. You are feeding the CK into the YC first.

Unbalanced, and often crappy, cables are OFTEN the source of problems that include: noise, distortion, and hum.

however the YC has the ability to send both signals of the YC and CK out via the XLR into the preamp via jack "11".

But it can ONLY send what it receives from the CK via those unbalanced, and possibly noisy, cables.

I'm not using the unbalanced outs only the XLR of the YC for optimum sound quality.

But the XLR outs will ONLY contain what they receive from the CK.

There's no way for me to know for certain you have a cable issue. I'm only relating that cable issues are often the cause of problems.

That is especially true when poorly shielded cables lay along side one another for a few feet at a time. Another common cause is when someone just grabs any available cable with the right connectors to use as a replacement.

Here is a link to the best explanation I have found of the difference between balanced and unbalanced cables: https://www.aviom.com/blog/balanced-vs-unbalanced/

Balanced cables use two signal wires; both carry a copy of the signal, but the two copies are sent with their polarity reversed. If you sum two signals that are identical but are reversed in polarity, the signals cancel out, leaving you with silence. (Just like adding positive and negative numbers: +15 added to -15 equals 0.)
. . .
So why would you want audio gear that flips the polarity of your signal? In this case, because the receiving gear will flip the inverted signal back into its original orientation. But because both copies of the signal picked up the same noise as they traveled along the cable—and that noise is identical on the two wires in the cable—flipping the polarity of what arrives at the receiving gear will produce the original signal in

That same article supports what I was saying above

On the flip side, however, using an unbalanced cable with gear that expects balanced signals will “work” (in the sense that audio will go from point A to point B), but the signal will be unbalanced and susceptible to the same noise as any unbalanced signals.

The cables you use need to be the BEST you can afford. They are just as important, if not more important, than the speakers you use.

A simple test would be to plug the headphones directly into the CK and then into the YC (configured as I have it) and if they are comparable then it's not the cables. Being a cheap audiophile my cables are typically new and better than the generic. They are HOSA but essentially all of them are made in China unless you want to pay an extreme price.

I discovered a MIDI issue in my other post. The YC can control the CK via MIDI except when the key strike is hard it doesn't sound like it behaves the sames as the CK does providing a significant volume boost. When using the YC no such volume or tone boost happens. This makes them sound different. The soft touch translates but not the hard key strike. In simple terms the the SKpro and the CK are far more dynamic than when played using the YC. It's like MIDI information isn't totally being transmitted to all velocities. Why not?

[quotePost id=121550]
That same article supports what I was saying above

On the flip side, however, using an unbalanced cable with gear that expects balanced signals will “work” (in the sense that audio will go from point A to point B), but the signal will be unbalanced and susceptible to the same noise as any unbalanced signals.

[/quotePost]
I don't think that quote really supports what you were saying. It sounded to me like you were saying that using balanced cables with unbalanced connections can degrade the signal; that quote only says that using a balanced cable with unbalanced connection will not offer any advantage over using unbalanced cables (i.e. "susceptible to the same noise"). That's different from saying it would actually be worse than using unbalanced cables, which I think is what you were saying.

It sounded to me like you were saying that using balanced cables with unbalanced connections can degrade the signal

I don't see anywhere that I said anything about using 'balanced cables with unbalanced connections'.

I only talked about used 'unbalanced' cables with balanced connections.

As I said, and that quote supports, an unbalanced cable can pick up noise and there is nothing to remove that noise even if you use a balanced connection. There is only one signal wire in an unbalanced cable so there isn't a second 'inverted' signal for the balanced connection to reverse to use to cancel out the noise.

It's like MIDI information isn't totally being transmitted to all velocities. Why not?

You are the ONLY one that can do the tests needed to confirm what MIDI is being transmitted.

Use MIDI-OX, or another midi monitor and examine the MIDI that is being sent.

That 'hard' or 'soft' is encoded in the velocity parameter that every NOTE ON event has.

So if you send a 'hard' note it might have a velocity of 100+. Check the MIDI monitor to confirm the velocity being sent.

[quotePost id=121555]
I don't see anywhere that I said anything about using 'balanced cables with unbalanced connections'.

I only talked about used 'unbalanced' cables with balanced connections.[/quotePost]
In your first post in this thread, you said: "the use of balanced cables with unbalanced connections can cause signal issues."

In your first post in this thread

Aha - the first post - didn't check that.

Thanks for spotting - I've corrected it now.

So how do I MIDI monitor on the YC?

So how do I MIDI monitor on the YC?

You don't. The monitor runs on your pc and you connect the YC to the pc.