“CP73 features newly-designed, 73-key balanced action that gives you authentic electric piano feel. It even features an “E-to-E” keyboard – perfect for playing in a band with a guitar and bass. Balanced action is useful when playing a variety of sounds from acoustic piano to organ or even synth.The balanced, 73-key action makes CP73 compact and lightweight so it can go anywhere and fit on any stage or in any studio setup.”

… it is still said…

By who? Someone who doesn’t really know, probably?
All you need to do is play them yourself —

Thank you BAD MISTER for prompt reply !

Some people in various Internet forums have spoken out about keybed problems with the CP73 and have also brought the MODX 8 into play at the same time.

Maybe not because of the same keybed type, but maybe because of the same quality (construction) of these built-in keybeds...

… people in various Internet forums…

They are expressing opinions, not necessarily any facts. At all…
Anyone who says they are same can be discounted completely… they are just wrong.

Some of what you read maybe tempered with buyer’s remorse, some of it is caused by their particular playing style. As keyboard players we are all different… the majority of the best selling (plastic fantastic) MIDI keyboard controllers are completely plastic. Some folks can happily play these because they can - they bought for its low-low price (in other words the quality doesn’t both them). Some players break those first time they play one.

As you go higher in price you do get better and better keyboard action. No secret there! But they all share the following behavior — no matter price, no matter manufacturer… When you reach Velocity 127 that’s all there is.

There is nothing wrong with being a heavy-handed player — unless you are in denial. Then you will have issues. Over my many years in this Musical Instrument business I’ve spoken to many repair centers about who breaks keys, and why. And part of what I learned is some folks do not respect the concept of Velocity = 127.

That is the limit for Velocity. If you hit the keys with more Velocity, the sound does not change, it does not get louder, it does not open the filters wider, NOTHING good happens above 127.

If you look at your recorded MIDI data for Note-On Velocity and you see 127s all over the place, you are not doing yourself any favors, you are just beating up your gear. A 127 is the hardest you should hit a keyboard to turn a Note-On. Going beyond this can border on abuse. Keyboards are designed to take a good amount of abuse, but for some it is just “a look” they are going for… in their mind’s eye, they want to look like they making the Uber-effort! It’s just “eye-wash”, a look.

If 127 is as hard as you ever need to hit a keyboard, you can prevent yourself from exceeding this by learning to play electronic keyboards properly. Remember striking a Note and having it max out at 127 that’s it - that’s all you get. As a recording engineer you learn to set levels so the signal never exceed a particular amount… it’s the loudest the signal will get. Velocity 127 is that for keyboards.

They probably have a poor sound system or they simply do not have it turned up enough (believe it or not). Or it’s not aimed at their ears — basically they do not hear themselves well enough. Most keyboard players have absolutely terrible sound systems (for the most part). If some one is complaining about any keyboard action (not just Yamaha) without saying what they are playing through, you can pretty much discount much of what they say. Because they are leaving out a critical component.

If you’re a keyboardist and your guitar player and bass player have more Wattage than you do, you wind up beating up your keyboard to get louder. One keyboard tech told me, that it’s always the same customers who break keys. I had to chuckle because he went to his records and showed me this same guy was in with every keyboard with broken keys. The tech’s comment was: ‘He probably shouldn't play electronic, doesn’t understand how they work’

His point was most people don’t break the keys - same keyboard model, but he could almost predict who would eventually be in with broken keys. If you’re a player that always breaks keys — his point was: it might be you, not necessarily the keyboard.

When your sound system rewards your effort, you wind up not having to bang the keys. We agreed - you can’t accuse someone of abuse, because they don’t see it that way. “I just play normally”, they’ll tell you

But once you make them aware of the real meaning of 127 and they still exceed that limit on a regular basis… you can only recommend they TURN UP, or buy the premium action.

If all your kick and snare drum hits are 127, it is very possible that you don’t understand Velocity. Unless you never want to play with accents.
You have to wonder why these folks buy velocity sensitive keyboards.

Now that adjustable velocity curves are available we can only hope those who are at the outer extremes (heavy-handed or feather touch) will be able to take the time to learn to adjust these to their personal touch. These adjustment can be made per Live Set Sound. It makes a huge difference. It is okay not to be in Range considered “Normal” — this just means the Normal setting is fine for “most” players… when you fall outside that range, you must learn to adjust the Velocity to match your playing style.

Does this make sense?

In many regards the contrasting posts online by these people, those alluded to by Bad Mister; are all but worthless most of the time. As you have no way of ensuring said person is anything more than words out the gate. Even a long term forum veteran, is a far cry from someone on the live scene right now.

The internet is a place were people deign themselves to a level, where you are supposed to believe you are in the presence of a musical prodigy or great composer whenever they grace you with a reply. That you should take what they say as gospel verse and soon the forum regulars will have you feeling the same.

Then the very next topic comes along. They reveal they haven't really tried them in the face of some detailed questions. 'They heard from a close friend though' they say. Or my personal favorite 'I tried the demo model for a few minutes at the show a few years ago'. And that's when the reality starts to set in. Take it with a pinch of salt. Anecdotes are not going to get you far. Motives are usually not what they appear - and some people are extremely petty with them.

Imagine you are one of those listening to the Reface circle. 'Its a useless toy'. 'Should come with more octaves' 'Can't even do anything with it'. 'It broke on day one - and I know what I am talking about with keybeds mate!'.

Meanwhile Nahre Sol is at the beach composing a Fugue.

The only standard of ones tools, is often the operator. People like their comparisons and there is no claiming that all criticism should be dismissed. However when you look around and an instrument is there live over and over again in performances you attend. Do you assume its worthless? Or assume that the player must like it - or it wouldn't keep appearing time after time.

There seems to be a great deal of function confusion as well. You'll have a reviewer correctly assert on Youtube lets say; that the Mp11se from Kawai has a great action. They will then compare it to a product like the Yamaha Cp88. Which is lighter, more specific for a different purpose/deployment than the Mp11 - and on leaving that video; you can see exactly that. A difference in the artists that use them.

Yet what do your forum threads say. 'Its an inferior action. My board at home that is 2 times heavier is better!'.

Now in the pursuit of action here; what happened to the overall grasp of what environment it will be used in along side? Well it vanishes. Because its more important to support the supremacy of their own anecdote - than it is adopt a balanced approach and help the person out considering their actual needs. They only ever tell you what they prioritize. If you want to be their mirror image you might listen. Only problem is that Bad Mister is correct. No two people strike the same away or indeed approach anything else the same way either. There are limits. And I wonder how anyone can fail to know that off hand anyway, when any nuanced playing requires variance in touch. So why do they need to thump the keys as if its the 1700s and they are giving Beethoven a run for his money.

The models in this range do have a totally different feel. Do people not go and try them? o_0

Personally my reason for avoiding the modx8 is that I have no use for a heavy action on the second tier. The one present on the 7 is thus fine. Complimentary to the RH3/NW-GH on the main boards.

How close are we at this stage to framing 'Piano action = better action' along with ''must have full octaves on each device''; when that isn't always the feel you even need or want in your bed. Cost isn't always =/= to intended application.

Personally the Modx for me better at the x6/x7 range and the CP best at the 88. Because of intended use. It isn't a exclusively keybed-competitor thing. Perhaps many of these people just collect keyboards? Then just try and have every bed at the same relative feel to their favorite. Which is in of itself, pointless for most of Yamaha's musician/field customers.

Preference is a wonderful thing yes. But if the argument is 'The bed was developed without trial, effort, or contrast of use'. That's a difficult idea to take seriously in the current competitive market.

Even if, according to the Yamaha homepage, the Yamaha CP73 has a BHS keybed, the P121 / 125 and the MODX 8 a GHS keybed, it is still said that these devices actually have the same keybed.

What's really behind it?

Even IF the boards use the same basic design, they are certainly not identical, because if nothing else, the Balanced Hammer Standard keys are balanced (same feel across the keyboard), and Graded Hammer Standard keys are graded (relatively heavier feeling toward the bottom and lighter feeling toward the top).

Bad_Mister, as far as 127 goes, I think the issue people have with some keyboards is not a desire to go "beyond" 127 (not possible, of course), but rather that they feel they have to hit the keys harder than they want to to GET to 127, or velocities approaching that figure (or perhaps they can't get there no matter HOW hard they hit the keys). It definitely takes more force to hit 127 on some keyboards than on others. (Though I'm not sure any of that is necessarily relevant to the OP...?)

Bad_Mister, as far as 127 goes, I think the issue people have with some keyboards is not a desire to go "beyond" 127 (not possible, of course), but rather that they feel they have to hit the keys harder than they want to to GET to 127, or velocities approaching that figure (or perhaps they can't get there no matter HOW hard they hit the keys). It definitely takes more force to hit 127 on some keyboards than on others. (Though I'm not sure any of that is necessarily relevant to the OP...?)

AnotherScott, this is exactly what a discussion of Velocity is about!

AnotherScott, this is exactly what a discussion of Velocity is about!

My attempted contrast was between your seeming to suggest that people may be banging away at the keys too hard in a futile attempt to get beyond 127, whereas I think the issue with some keyboards is that they aren't even getting TO 127 (e.g. a sound's maximum loudness/brightness) unless somone bangs away. An almost opposite problem. I'm not sure we haven't gone astray here, though, since based on the OP, I'm not sure how we got onto velocity in the first place. 😉 Though as it happens, I did feel that the CP73 required too much force to get to "bark" levels of the EP, for example (even setting the curve to "soft" didn't get me where I wanted to go, and I don't have a light touch). I'm glad to see that it looks like the new update should address that.

My attempted contrast was between your seeming to suggest that people may be banging away at the keys too hard in a futile attempt to get beyond 127…

Not my point at all — it’s not that they are attempting to get beyond 127… who knows what they are trying to do, perhaps “look cool” — the point is they do it AS IF they are unaware that nothing exist there for them.

I did feel that the CP73 required too much force to get to "bark" levels of the EP…

Only if high velocities trigger the “bark”. If there is no “bark” Waveform in the program, it will not “bark” if you hit it with brick. Try fixing velocity at different levels to understand what it’s supposed to sound like at different velocities. Or use a DAW where you can easily see your velocity output.

I'm glad to see that it looks like the new update should address that.

Well then, good!

I did feel that the CP73 required too much force to get to "bark" levels of the EP…

Only if high velocities trigger the “bark”. If there is no “bark” Waveform in the program, it will not “bark” if you hit it with brick.

I understand that. The bark is there though. I didn't say I couldn't get it to bark, I said that it felt to me like it required too much force.

I can confirm on my end that playing with the new depth and offset has indeed fixed the issue. What Scott is saying was my gripe - I think the 'barky' samples are indeed present in the high velocity ranges and on the CP73 (apparently not on the CP88) you had to hammer the crap out of the keys to get it - if at all. I couldn't get it consistently even on soft as has been noted.

BTW - It didn't even need much adjustment - just up into the 70s for both for the Wurli and Rhodes - and I also adjusted a bit upward on the new Hamburg (which is just phenomenal). Works similar on the Wide setting too, so there are probably a number of odd things about these stock velocity profiles.

Only remaining gripe? I really wish the modded/offset values translated as true velocity values over MIDI...... So I still have that issue when playing external instruments - but I do have a plugin workaround.

Oh - and I'm one who absolutely LOVES the CP73 action.

Thanks for the feedback.

BTW - It didn't even need much adjustment - just up into the 70s for both for the Wurli and Rhodes - and I also adjusted a bit upward on the new Hamburg (which is just phenomenal). Works similar on the Wide setting too, so there are probably a number of odd things about these stock velocity profiles.

As stated, as keyboard players, we are all different. Tiny adjustment for you may be way too much for someone else, or far too little for another player. It does not mean that settings others prefer are odd or that something is wrong.

Reality is: We do have to share the universe with others… or we can go through life thinking “we are correct, and that everyone that doesn’t agree is wrong”… my life experience follows the Sylvester Stewart philosophy that allows for “…different strokes, for different folks…” and so on.

Hopefully, your external devices have response curves…especially, those that don’t give you an actual set of keys to play, seems they should allow you to adjust how they respond to incoming velocity.

My FA06 (which has its own set of velocity related keybed issues with its "supernatural" sounds) has a set of response curves for each part for incoming MIDI - they do make a difference on some sounds, but in all honesty those are the same sounds as on the CP73 - and they are better on the CP73. 80% of the time I just play piano, 15% Electric piano (all types). The remaining stuff is synth related or organ, and I just play that stuff on the FA so it's not a real issue.

I can also adjust the curve with an Ableton plugin, so when it hits a virtual instrument like Kontakt I can even that out there. I suspect many generic controller instruments would have this same requirement. 😀

Some people have complained about keybed issues with the CP73 on various Internet forums, while also bringing the MODX 8 into play.
drift boss

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