Welcome to Yamaha Synth. We can certainly help you with setting up the Yamaha CP4 Stage, but as to setting up the Hammond XK1c you will have to be on your own there.

I have a Hammond xk1c and CP4. I would like to set things up so that I use the Hammond as the upper manual, and the CP4 as the lower manual. In other words, I want all sounds to come from the Hammond using midi connections

If all sounds are to come from the Hammond, you want to set your CP4 Stage so you are set to transmit OUT via MIDI

Press [UTILITY]
Select 02: MIDI
Press [ENTER]
Set IN/OUT = MIDI

Sorry, we do not understand your vision about "pedals" and how you expect to play them in your setup. Being a long time fan of Mr. James Oscar Smith, we know he played the pedals with his feet. Please do not try to play your CP4 Stage with your feet 🙂 we'll need a better explanation of what your vision is concerning the pedals. If you have some kind of pedal unit, I would imagine that you would MIDI OUT of the CP4 Stage into the pedal unit which would then merge the MIDI signal of the CP with its own... so OUT of the Pedal unit into your XK1c. (Again, I am guessing here because you don't mention that you have any pedal unit... we are assuming you do).

Ideally, I would like to be able to quickly and easily alternate between using the CP4 as a controller and just using its own sounds (not necessarily during a song, but still relatively quickly during a gig). I am also hoping that such a set-up can easily be saved

If you need to alternate between using the CP4 Stage as a controller and using its own sounds, then you would need to leave LOCAL SW = ON, and work with setting up several CP4 Stage Performances; each making use of the "Master Keyboard" function found within each Performance program.

We do not know the XK1C, sorry.... Is it capable of receiving as 3 separate tone generators simultaneously?
Seems it would have to in order to do upper/lower/pedals.

In general, you would setup the VOICEs you want to use in the CP4 Stage and store them to a PERFORMANCE location 001-128. If you don not want the CP4 Stage to sound - simply store the volume to 0 for the MAIN and leave LAYER and SPLIT set OFF.

You can edit each PERFORMANCE's Master Keyboard function to control whatever you need in your XK1C

You don't mention what sounds you would want from the CP4 Stage - but assume you have that setup as you require.
Edit each PERFORMANCE's Master Keyboard setup as necessary.

Call up your PERFORMANCE
Press [EDIT]
Use the UP/DOWN CURSOR to move to 03: MASTER KEYBOARD
On the left it will read COMMON
Set the MASTER KEYBOARD = ON
Cursor DOWN
Turn ZONE 1's ZONE SWITCH = ON
Select the appropriate MIDI Channel 1-16 that you want to use to play your XK1c from this ZONE
Cursor DOWN
Set the OCTAVE and TRANSPOSE
Cursor DOWN
Continue to set the parameter as you require.
(Again sorry, we have no idea of the capabilities of your XK1c, but you can setup Bank Select/Program Changes, turn on and off controllers, etc. as you require).

There are four ZONES - you will be using three of them to transmit to your Hammond XK1c
Once you have the settings for this PERFORMANCE press [STORE] to write the data into this PERFORMANCE (be sure to name it so you know what is going on within it). If you do not want the internal CP4 Stage to sound you can set the VOLUMES for the internal PARTS = 0 and store that in your Performance.
You can have the front panel sliders control internal or external sounds, we don't have enough information (from you) to have any clue how to suggest you proceed with setting that up.

If you provide more information, we can (perhaps) be more helpful. That should get you started, however.

Regarding pedals, I believe Jim means he wants to use two zones on the CP4, with the lower zone feeding the XK's MIDI channel for pedals, and the upper zone feeding the XK's MIDI channel for lower manual.

Jim, see bullets 18 and 19 on page 102 of XK manual ( http://www.hammondsuzuki.com/download/om-xk1c-ad68ae2e-fc9D-4cdf-821b-8dec0345a65a.pdf ) to set MIDI channels for lower and pedal manuals on XK.

One correction to what BadMister says above, for starters: When using the CP4 to play the XK, you will only want to use 2 zones on the CP4, not three, since you'll want to use the XK's keyboard to play the upper manual, and only use the CP4 to play pedals and lower manual.

However, you may also need a 3rd zone if you want to send program changes to the XK when you select the CP4 performance (say, to set the drawbars to preset), since I believe the XK expects program changes on whatever channel the upper manual is set (default of 1, I suspect). No worries, get the first part going and then we can move to the advanced features.

Sadly, making sense of the XK manual is a chore. It was apparently translated by someone who didn't speak much English and didn't have a clear understanding of what's important to convey about MIDI. It mentions "control channel" in two places, but never defines "control channel". So, we'll need to do some experimentation to figure out how the XK works, to get past the basics. The CP4 manuals are a delight in comparison.

One correction to what BadMister says above, for starters: When using the CP4 to play the XK, you will only want to use 2 zones on the CP4, not three, since you'll want to use the XK's keyboard to play the upper manual, and only use the CP4 to play pedals and lower manual.

I stand by my recommendation of three Zones. Zones can be used to simply recall, they do not have to be used to play. It would be silly to have the Master Keyboard function recalling the 'pedals' and the 'lower manual' but ignore recalling the 'upper manual' (even if that Zone is not used to directly play the upper Zone). Even more so because all sound is coming from the XK1c, and because at some point it is mentioned that the CP4 Stage will be used for its own sounds. This means that you will need to address all three areas of the XK1c, even if just to silence them. I'll stand by my recommendation of 3 Zones!

I suggest setting the XK's main (upper manual / control) channel to something other than 1, 2, or 3. This way, any CP4 performance will not trigger the XK unless you set up zones specifically. All the factory CP4 performances will work without modification.

Alternatively, the CP4's base channel can be set to a channel that's not used by the XK, and you get the same benefit. (Jim: It needs to be a channel where that channel and the next two aren't used by the XK, because CP4 transmits on its base channel for MAIN, and transmits on the next two for LAYER and SPLIT.)

I should have mentioned this above: when setting the XK's MIDI channels for lower manual and pedals, don't use 1, 2, or 3 (or whatever range the CP4 is set to use, but 1,2,3 is the default.)

Jeff, we see what you are trying to suggest, but the original poster would like to not only control the XK1c with an upper/lower/pedal setup, but at some point play just the CP4 Stage. This is why I recommend programming using the CP4 Stage's Master Keyboard function... This means customizing the Performances for this purpose.

Fact: Once the MASTER KEYBOARD function is turned ON for a particular Performance, the bit about the CP4 Stage transmitting on channels 1, 2, and 3 for MAIN, LAYER and SPLIT, respectively, no longer applies. The MASTER KEYBOARD function will determine the MIDI transmit channels going OUT via MIDI for this Performance.

Without having to avoid certain channels, using the MASTER KEYBOARD feature, as designed, seems the most flexible way to proceed.
Jeff, if you have the same setup, try working with the Master Keyboard function found within each Performance.

Thanks all. I just want to note that I have not had a chance to try out these suggestions, but I will be reading everything very carefully. I will reply later if I still have questions.

Bad Mister: We must be miscommunicating, because your last post doesn't contain anything I don't know, and it doesn't change my suggestion.

The reason to set the XK to different channels than the CP4's (default 1, 2, 3), is so he can use all the performances he already has (including factory presets) without having to turn on Master Keyboard on every preset he plans to use at a gig. It's just a convenience, eliminating one step for every performance where the CP4 will not be controlling the XK.

Definitely, the Master Keyboard feature is the right way to go for any performances where he'll be controlling the XK from the CP4. We're in complete agreement on that.

BTW Jim, once you have a Master Keyboard setup that you like, it's easy to copy it from one performance to another; no need to rebuild it from scratch each time. (At least, I think so ... it's easy to do with main, layer and split parts; hopefully its true of Master Keyboard section. My CP4 isn't set up so I can't check.)

There's also a way to set up three zones, for XK pedals, XK lower manual, and CP4 internal sounds (with optional layer). The trick there is to set the CP4 up so that the SPLIT part covers both of the XK zones and has volume set to zero, and then just program the MAIN and LAYER parts as desired. If you turn the volume of the SPLIT part, it'll sound along with the XK sounds.

Yes, I believe we are miscommunicating. It wasn't my goal to tell you anything that you don't know. That's for you to decide.

The reason to set the XK to different channels than the CP4's (default 1, 2, 3), is so he can use all the performances he already has (including factory presets) without having to turn on Master Keyboard on every preset he plans to use at a gig. It's just a convenience, eliminating one step for every performance where the CP4 will not be controlling the XK.

Precisely the reason I am suggesting that Master Keyboard SHOULD be used. I'm suggesting that one should program every Performance that you plan to use. I guess if you like surprises or you think that it is too much work, you can avoid programming, but if you've purchased a programmable instrument, rather than avoiding programming I'm suggesting that you embrace the programmability. No one at the factory could possibly know how you intend to use your instrument, this is why there are NO FACTORY PRESETS. The entire PERFORMANCE memory of the CP4 Stage is USER memory... The data from the factory contained within are just "suggestions". They are there to learn from - please do not just play them as is... Play them, then Customize them ... A little or a lot!

One can work any way you choose, but I would be remiss if I did not point out the value of the Master Keyboard function. It was developed specifically for a situation where one is using the CP4 Stage with external devices. I could not in good conscience suggest that one avoid using a feature that is so very useful. Beyond just dealing with what MIDI channel you're communicating on (which you have a proper understanding of) the Master Keyboard function will allow the player to setup volume control and other controllers for those external devices. Playing an organ, in particular, one might need to use Expression pedals, or a simple assignment of the control sliders.

If you avoid using the Master Keyboard function, you can miss out on this type of control feature. Your solution is fine, I'm not trying to tell you how you must work, but to avoid programming a programmable instrument is a shame. I am only suggesting that one explore this _ it's there (it's paid for) why not use it. Hope that clarifies why I might seem insistent (if that's what it seems to you) about using the technology that's there. (Or not.) I'm just pointing out there are more advantages to programming the MASTER KEYBOARD function than might first meet the eye.

Ok, I have now spent time with the Hammond and am ready to return to this thread. Upon re-reading, I now realize I have a couple of very basic preliminary questions:

Badmister wrote

"Turn ZONE 1's ZONE SWITCH = ON
Select the appropriate MIDI Channel 1-16 that you want to use to play your XK1c from this ZONE."

I see in the controls how to turn on zone 1's switch, and I also understand that there are up to 4 zones. But I don't really know what a zone is. Is it a pre-determined portion of the keyboard? Do I decide what is contained within each zone?

I also don't know what the "appropriate MIDI CHannel 1-16" is. How do I decide that?

I should mention that I am now leaning to one particular setup, if possible. I would like to use one of the CP4's own internal bass guitar sounds for the lower octave, and then send the lower manual setting from the Hammond to the upper octaves of the CP4. Hopefully, that can be done.

Thanks.

I see in the controls how to turn on zone 1's switch, and I also understand that there are up to 4 zones. But I don't really know what a zone is. Is it a pre-determined portion of the keyboard? Do I decide what is contained within each zone?

A Zone represents the CP4 Stage transmitting OUT via MIDI. A Zone is a user defined region such that each one of the four Zones could be triggering a different external tone generator.

"Using the Master Keyboard function, you can play other MIDI tone generators via the stage piano’s keyboard. In fact, you can even split the keyboard into four different zones, each of which can then control another device. This allows you to play multiple Voices produced by other MIDI devices along with the stage piano’s."

I also don't know what the "appropriate MIDI CHannel 1-16" is. How do I decide that?

When the framers of MIDI created the spec the word "Channel" was selected because the concept is easy to explain. If a television station is "transmitting" on channel 2, all receiving devices tuned to channel 2 will "receive" that transmission. What is transmitted on channel 2 can be done discreetly without disturbing what is happening on another channel. You simply need to tune the receiving device (tone generator) to the appropriate (matching) channel that the transmitting Zone is sending. Information on Channel 2 will not interfere with information on Channel 3 or Channel 4 or Channel 5 and so on... Each is discreet, separate... When you set a ZONE to TRANSMIT on a particular Channel, you simply match the Channel number with the tone generators RECEIVE Channel setting. If they match - you have a successful communication.

Example: you set Zone 1 ON, and set the region from note C3 (middle C) and above to TRAMSMIT on Channel 1. This means pressing a note C3 and above will cause Note-On messages to travel OUT via MIDI - if you connect an external tone generator (like your Hammond) to receive on Channel 1 it will sound in response to key presses on your CP4's keys... but on in the region you've set. You set the region with LOW and HIGH note settings, per Zone.

If you set a second Zone to transmit from C5 and above and you set the Zone's transmit channel to 13, then any external device set to receive on MIDI channel 13 will respond to those keys of the CP4. It is totally independent of what you set for ZONE 1. Yes, they can overlap if you wish... in this example the external devices would layer above C5, but only ZONE1 would play between C3 and B4...

ZONES can overlap or not. They can be separate or even a combination of both.. it is up to you.

Using your stage piano’s master-keyboard function, which has been specially crafted for use in live-performance settings, up to four virtual zones can be set up along the keyboard and assigned to four different tone generators, including other MIDI instruments.

I should mention that I am now leaning to one particular setup, if possible. I would like to use one of the CP4's own internal bass guitar sounds for the lower octave, and then send the lower manual setting from the Hammond to the upper octaves of the CP4. Hopefully, that can be done.

The question is worded improperly, I think. If I understood what you wanted ... You want to play the CP4 Stage's keys. So you don't want to 'send' from the Hammond. You want to send (transmit) from the CP4. If that is what you meant. Yes this can be done.

If this is not what you meant then I'm confused.

You want the bass sound front the CP4 Stage. Set the bass sound you want to use and set the CP4's SPLIT Voice to that bass sound. Decide where that split point is going to be. If you do not want the MAIN VOICE from the CP4 to sound, set the VOLUME for the MAIN = 0 (simply pull the Control Slider for MAIN all the way down.

Turn the Master Keyboard Function ON
Set Zone 1 parameters to trigger the Hammond.
The parameters you will want to set for the (Hammond) ZONE are as follows:

ZONE = ON
CH = set this to the Receive Channel that matches what you want trigger in the Hammond
OCT = if you wish to raise or lower the Hammond by octaves
TRANS = if you wish to transpose the Hammond by half-steps
LOW = set the lowest key for the Hammond _ this will be a based on where you set the Split Point for the CP4 Stage Bass sound. For example, if you have the lowest two octaves of the CP4 doing Bass, then set the low note for the Hammond ZONE so it starts where the Bass ends. (Make sense?)
HIGH = G8
BANK MSB/LSB and PGM = if you want the Master Keyboard function to select a particular program in the receiving device you can set those numbers here. If you do not want the Master Keyboard function to send this setting you can opt out later (see below).
VOL = if you want the Master Keyboard function to set a particular start Volume in your receiving device you can set that here. If you do not want the Master Keyboard function to send this setting you can opt out later (see below).
PAN = if you want the Master Keyboard function to set a particular Pan position in your receiving device you can set that here. If you do not want the Master Keyboard function to send this setting you can opt out later (see below).

TxSw or Transmit Switches -these allow you to set what will and what will not affect your receiving tone engine (Hammond)
BANK = Off if you do not want or need to send a Bank Select MSB/LSB
PGM = Off if you do not want to or need to send a Program Change message to the Hammond
VOL = Off if you do not want to or need to send a Volume message to the Hammond
PAN = Off if you do not want to or need to send a Pan message to the Hammond
PB = Pitch Bend
MW = Mod Wheel
SLIDER = if you would like to assign a SLIDER to control the Volume of the Hammond, for example you could set the middle slide (LAYER) to control the Hammond. (The Bass will use the SPLIT Slider, the MAIN will control the internal CP4 Main Voice, which is set to 0
SUSTAIN = set OFF
FS = program as necessary (I don't know the Hammond but I imagine you could assign a Foot Switch to do something useful)
FC1 = Foot Controller 1 a Yamaha FC7
FC2 = Foot Controller 2 a Yamaha FC7

I still need to spend a lot more time in front of both keyboards before I can impose further in good faith.

But in the meantime, I figure I might as well post some info about the Hammond xk1c. I am not asking anyone to read this, but provide it just in case anyone is interested.

Here is the link to the xk1c manual: http://www.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/Hammond_XK1c_manual.pdf

Page 106 is a discussion of zones and channels.
Page 108-109 is a more detailed discussion of MIDI settings.
Page 122 shows various MIDI templates.

By default, MIDI Channel 1 is the main channel for the XK (controlling the whole instrument, and notes for the upper manual). Channel 2 is for the lower manual (controls and notes).

So, you want to set up a patch like this, for starters:

MAIN: can be any sound, but set the volume to zero, so it doesn't play. (You can do that by pulling the MAIN zone fader down, just before saving the patch.)
LAYER: can be any sound, leave it turned off when saving. Later you may find clever uses for this and MAIN, but for now, turned off, using the LAYER button.
SPLIT: bass sound, with the volume slider at say 3/4 (so if you want to boost the bass while playing, you have some room). Set the split note as C below middle C.
MasterKeyboard: set up one zone, with low note to C below Middle C, and the high note to high C. Set the zone's MIDI channel to 2, so it'll control the XK's lower manual.

That's the simplest setup. Plug your expression pedal into the XK. There's a way to plug it into the CP4 and have it control the XK, but let's start the easy way.

Later, you'll find that there's a problem with this setup: when you do NOT want to use the CP4 to play the XK, and pick some arbitrary other patch, it'll send notes on Channel 1, which will play notes on the XK. Easiest fix for that is to change the XK's channels, and update your zone MIDI channel (2, above) accordingly. One step at a time, though.