Like Alan Kay famously said of the iPad (Montage), it's not a Dynabook (Workstation) because it can't create content for itself.

I can't help with how you're generating that yellow triangle warning - that might indicate you're trying to convert a track that's empty to an Arp, and if this is the case it's a bit of a hunt to find the right track/scene/part to be converting to an Arp.

However, on the Harpsichord key presses making some drum noises... go to the Drum part, edit its Arp, and the top of the three tabs (Common) - turn on Arp Play Only. This will prevent it from playing random notes, but not from triggering different ranges of arps, when you're playing.

To do that you'll have to reduce the key input range for the Arp, which is also on this page (not the key range of the part, where you'd expect to do this, which is one of the most bizarre UX choices in the whole product).

Generally speaking, folks lock down the drum initiating key range to a single key, so that the arp can only be triggered in one way, quite specifically by playing that one note.

To create a user ARP using the instrument itself, I've primarily used the old Performance recorder because that's all that was available for years. The pattern feature allows for some better editing features - but I still use the Performance recorder for fast/quick/easy ARPs. I just record what I want as a song under the MIDI recorder then convert this to an ARP. For a drum ARP you're going to want the conversion type set to "fixed".

Here's someone going through this in a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eIKSNc9V6Q

Also something like a drum Part - you probably want to set to "Arp Play Only" in the arpeggio settings so the keys don't map directly to the drum keys when/if the Drum Part's arpeggio is turned off. That can be a reason why sometimes you see "random" drum sounds and sometimes not.

It's almost as if you don't read my replies, Jason.

So...

As Jason suggested, I managed to create a Drum Arp using the old "Performance Recorder". (For referencing this at -->> Performance/Home - Rec/Play - MIDI). More on that in a later post.

But... I absolutely cannot do this with the Pattern Recorder, and I'm wondrring if this is a bug?

MODX is at V2.52. I have bags of free memory, and the few "test" tracks (Song, Pattern, MIDI) were all deleted before I started a methodical experimental approach.

If you hit the transport buttons, the MODX immediately takes you to the Pattern Recorder (Performance/Home - Rec/Play - Pattern).

I wondered if the "No Data" warning arose previously because I only recorded 1 bar (4 beats). So this time I recorded 4 Bars.

This time I got all my ducks in a row. I remembered to turn OFF Keyboard Control for the instruments, and left it on for Drums only (i.e. Part 4). Pattern does not distinguish, it just records MIDI from Parts. It will play the MIDI data back through whichever Parts (Positions) were under Keyboard Control when you recorded it. Beware if you move Parts around.

I recorded the Pattern. Played it back, it sounded good.

NOTE: Make sure you haven't accidentally selected/highlighted a different Part (e.g. currently Muted Piano) or on Playback you will hear nothing. Select the requisite Part (Part 4 in my case) or just the whole Performance (Title Bar).

I clicked on the "Pattern Box", top left, to be given the options Load, Rename or New Pattern. I chose to Rename something meaningful TEARDROP PTRN.

After you finish recording, an onscreen callout box to the right will give you the Option of EDIT/JOB. Click it, and go to the top left Tab "OVERVIEW". A call out box to the right of the screen gives you the Option of "Save as .mid file?". I did this and used the file name TEARDROP PTN MIDI... to see if this is just an archive/backup or the actual Pattern file. It seems it is a backup, because the Pattern Name didn't change.

On the same screen, 3rd Left Tab from the bottom is "USER ARP". Selecting this I went through the process slowly, checking each step "seemed" correct. I even tried Measure "Start 1 End 4" , and "Start 1 End 5" just in case the "End" is actually regarded as Bar 5 Beat 1.

Everytime I have used the Pattern Recorder, User Arp, and selected "Store As User Arp" I get the "NO DATA" screen. I cannot get this to work.

I have linked Google Drive photos URL

On this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ATmULNnnx4ONgK5cqW7v-SHd5djXglhk/view

Try setting Track > Arp Track 1 to 4, since this is the part you've recorded your bar into.

Btw, it won't matter if it's one bar or 4 bars, or 100 bars.

With all due respect to Bad Mister, this is two part series on making custom arpeggios is some of the worst technical writing I've ever seen.

However, you might glean something from it:

https://hub.yamaha.com/keyboards/synthesizers/mastering-montage-arpeggio-making-101-part-ii/

It's only ever confused me, and I've read it at least a half dozen times.

It might be me.

I've had a good read through the "Arpeggio 101"... this applies to Montage, and the "old" Song MIDI Recorder.

I've had a good read through the SUPPLEMENTARY MANUALS.... both the "OLD" MIDI/SONG Recorder and the "NEW" Pattern Recorder are covered here in respect to ARPs. This information is NOT in the Owners Manual, nor the Reference Manual.

Several Questions/Unknowns arrive from this but there are three main areas that have left me confused and seeking explicit confirmation.

#1 - TRACK NUMBER
All "Home Screen" documentation refers to Pattern Names, Song Names, Performance Names, Part Numbers.

In the data manipulation screens, the documents are exclusively referring to TRACK NUMBERS, SCENE NUMBERS and ARP NUMBERS.

What are they? Where are they?

In the "101" article, there is reference to the fact that there four ARP Types... ARP1, ARP2, ARP3 and ARP4 that can be created in "User Arp". These would be covered in the next Article, but as far as I can tell, they weren't (not the same as Fixed, Original Notes and Normal).

Similarly, there was a hint they could/should be created by making adjacent TRACKS ?????

So... TRACK? What is it.

#2 - SCENE NUMBERS. Is this the same as the Performance Scenes (Where a Performance may have several Scenes, with slight modifications in each Scene, and referenced by the hard Scene Buttons below the sliders). Or is it some other, identically named (Scene) Construct, specifically regarding Songs/Patterns where Scenes refers to a change in Song Section (E.g. Pattern1/Scene1 Verse, Pattern2/Scene2 Chorus, Pattern3/Scene3 Middle 8), such that a PATTERN CHAIN would play them in the SPECIFIED ORDER e.g. 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2.

#3 - ARP NUMBERS ... specifically ARP1, ARP2, ARP3 and ARP4 as referred to in the User Arp screens?

You have to specify an association/link between ARP# and TRACK# when using the USER ARP Screens. Every example I have witnessed examples (Youtube, Articles) they suggest or imply this is arbitrary/default (no thought required)... e.g. ARP1, TRACK1. Clearly it isn't Arbitrary... it needs to be correct or you get "NO DATA" when you try to "Store As User ARP".

I am in Danger of derailing my own Questions in my Previous Post ^^^^^^^^^^.

But here goes, desperately trying to understand TRACK NUMBERS and USER ARP NUMBERS. I searched through all the Manuals. I have listed below references:-

Owners Manual, Page 45, MIDI Recording, Recording to a TRACK.
The text States....

In this section, you’ll learn how to record your keyboard performance, by recording a part to Track 1. However, you’ll first need to set up the MODX for recording.

The example shows a 4 Part Performance. One has to presume that all 4, Simultaneously Played PARTS are being recorded to TRACK #1. That is what is implied by the text. Furthermore, it implies Tracks 2-16 are not used. Presumably, Recording will DEFAULT to TRACK #1, unless some conscious manual intervention is employed to force recording to a different Track # (See below Reference Manual source).

However, the GRAPHICAL layout of the Recording Screen, and some logical intuition, would suggest that EACH Performance Part is Assigned its own recording Track #. So in a 4 Part Performance (as shown in the Manual), recording a "Song" would result in 4 Separate recorded Tracks.... Track1 for Part 1, Track2 for Part 2, Track 3 for Part 3, Track 4 for Part 4. In the Diagram, Tracks 5 to 16 would be recorded but contain "NO DATA".

So in a Multi Part Performance, with all Parts ON, each Track # will ONLY record its Corresponding Part. That is my best educated guess.

So, if you've recorded a multi-part Performance, wiped the sweat off your brow, then done a "Store As User ARP", ARP1 - TRACK1 and wondered where your Violins (Part 2) have disappeared to when you assign your USER ARP....

Reference Manual, Page 16, Item 2, User Arp Diagram.

This Diagram shows, presumably, that you can SELECT up to 4 Tracks (any 4 Track #'s from 1-16) and then Assign/Associate them with up to 4 ARPS (ARP1, ARP2, ARP3 & ARP4) to be recorded as USER ARPS. Except in the Diagram, confusingly, it calls them Track1, Track2, Track3 and Track4 (Not "Arp Track 1" etc).

Workflow economy I am guessing, allowing you to record 4 different types of ARPS (Org, Norm, Fixed etc) from a Single Sitting Recorded Session. Except, you only get 1x Name "Place Holder" to Save the ARP NAME. I am still figuring out how 4 USER ARPS divide into 1 ARP NAME.

Again, my Presumption has to be that SONG TRACK numbers (1 - 16) are individual recorded Tracks with a 1 to 1 correlation with PART NUMBERS (1 - 16).

This seems to explain my "NO DATA" issue. Solved as @Andrew suggested, enter TRACK #4 in the User Arp screen. (Drums were on PART#4).

In addition. The above Manual References, describe behaviour only in the "OLD" MIDI/SONG recorder.

There are no descriptions of TRACKS in the PATTERN SEQUENCER Manual (found only in the Supplementary Manuals). Moreover, there are no Graphical Representations of TRACKS in the Pattern Sequencer, either in the "real" MODX Screen, or "virtual" Diagrams/Screenshots in the Supplementary Manual.

I am loathe to start experimenting and testing my presumptions and theories described above.

A clear, concise, explicit description would be very much appreciated.

😀

I fully understand all that you've been saying, and (sorry) have been down all these paths, and the one you're avoiding, of testing many assumptions, many times. I'm no further forward. Everything I've presumed has been proven wrong, yet I still can't exactly ascertain what is what, where/when/why.

My gut feeling is that the reasons for the ambiguity and deliberate simplicity in the "tutorial" by Bad Mister and the empty nature of the docs is a result of nobody being able to generate meaningful arpeggios in a repeatable manner... with the possible exception of the guy from EasySounds, who seems to package many arps he makes into his preset packs.

If he's around, I think he's the best person to ask, as he's seemingly made a thousand + arps for Montage/MODX.

@Andrew.... Merry Christmss and sincere Best Wishes for the New Year.

You have helped me here, and I thank you for that.

Some friendly advice in return....

30+ Years in a Multi-National Corporate Environment as an Engineer. I have been told so much manipulative BS in those years, but there is one epithet that actually rings true...

"If you can't be part of the solution, you will become part of the problem".

Nearly every nugget of great advice you write on here is couched in general or personally offensive remarks. And you have become "infamous" for it. That makes anything constructive you have to say hard to swallow, or at worst, completely ignored.

Despite the anonymity of forums, the text there-in is still written by Human Beings with all the usual sensitivities, faults and in equal parts... Brilliance.

BM and Jason are clearly tireless Human Beings who go the extra 20! miles to help others. Whether they totally understand it or not is irrelevant, the fact remains they are trying to help. Very often, two or more brains applied gets to the solution more efficiently. Which is in-fact the whole point of internet forums.

Imagine for a moment, that what you are writing, is instead spoken face-to-face. Would you be so bold as to say the same things that you write?

Life, the Universe and Everything is generally easier if you pay people, or even the corporate entities they are obliged to represent, common courtesy.

Take it easy dude!!!

Merry Christmas, Antony!!!

Just like real life, forums are full of different characters, often with different beliefs, all with different experiences.

I greatly appreciate sincere efforts from anyone and everyone, on anything and every thing.

Unfortunately, with regards the programming of arpeggios, we've hit a spot of bother, because there's a few things quite odd about the system, and the creation of them.

Yamaha even seem downright reticent to show how they work and what they do. I suspect/think there's two main reasons for that - that the programmers who made the underlying systems have since left Yamaha with the code largely indecipherable to the newer programmers, and an internal fear that those same programmers might have "borrowed" some of the methodologies common to the ways of Stephen Kay of Karma fame.

It seems the guys from EasySounds have overcome some of the arp programming issues because of a long period of affinity with many generations of the arp engine and Yamaha methodologies, and that most of their ways around it are actually done in a DAW before importing them into the Montage/MODX for conversion to arps.

For now, the only best solution I can suggest, having done many more experiments and much more research into the arp system than I'd care to admit: you're best off finding the closest thing you can within the installed arps, then re-setting the drum sounds of a part such that you get what you want on the beats you want.

One other thing, when making an arp, do it in Part 1, in an init patch, to avoid some of the problems you're experiencing. Don't presume that making it in the other parts of an existing Performance should work fine. There are problems in the Montage/MODX. It's not flawlessly coded.

Generally speaking, start from init to make anything new. If it doesn't work this way, it can't be done. There's too many other foibles to the way the systems integrate in more complex Performances to reliably use them to make general content for other parts from within them. Get the inspiration, then go to an init and make general stuff within that, then load into your Performances and Parts as you need.

This approach is somewhat colloquially known as sandboxing. Sadly, this is generally how developers test what they create, and what they target with their automated testing. Not just in music equipment, in everything more complex than a toaster.

The Arpeggio 101 articles predate the addition of the pattern recorder. So any recording in those articles would use the Performance recorder (MIDI). And back then pressing the transport buttons (like record) would have brought you to the MIDI record feature instead of Pattern (which didn't exist).

I'd like to have more experience with the pattern recorder to help - but right now I don't have any depth of usage to help sort through this. The Performance Recorder general workflow is re-record over and over (hopefully not too many times) if you make a mistake because the editing options are not there. For a small amount of notes or an "easy" ARP - I personally prefer using this method and slow down the tempo to record.

One thing that I've noticed for my own ARP creation is that it doesn't matter what Part(s) are on each track. Your arpeggio is only about notes and velocities - it doesn't store the Part. You can apply an arpeggio to any Part - so having "the right" Part in any given track is only to perhaps let you hear what the ARP will sound like when you have the ARP applied to a particular sound. Even if I'm creating an ARP for a specific sound - I usually just load up any old sound. I don't record drum arps - but certainly recording a drum ARP with a compatible kit would make sense. More than anything, I'm just trying to convey that having say the CFX Stage as the sound doesn't matter vs. say a particular bass to just block out the arpeggio. If you have a concept of the velocities, note lengths, and spaces between the notes - then that's most of it for me. To me, it doesn't matter so much what the specific sounds are you are using to create an ARP. This doesn't mean it's a "bad" idea to apply the "intended" sounds up. It's just that I see I get more done faster by not getting hung up on the soundscape when creating ARPs. You may relate differently - and that's OK.

Because the pattern recorder does have lots of better editing features for the "MIDI" data - I do want to dig in more to this. No time now, but I'll see what I can do unless someone else gets you squared away first.

Anthony
I think i can help clarify this a bit. I have a montage but its all very similar

SCENES
when in the pattern sequencer and its edit and convert to arp pages, Scene means exactly what you think. So as per your example Scene1/Verse Scene 2/Chorus etc
- In MODX terminology though you have 8 scenes that make up 1 pattern. So you chain scenes, not patterns to make a Song.

START/END Start 1 End 5 is four bars

USER ARP
On this screen it is important to know what it is allowing you to do. The end result will always be one Arp only, that can be assigned to one part at a time like the preset Arps. It doesn't get automatically assigned to your current performance . You do that.
It doesn't matter whether you convert 1 track of Banjo to Arp or 4 tracks of Banjo, Harpsichord, Violin and Minimoog to Arp at the same time, you will always produce 1 Arp that addresses 1 part

Scene: This will be the scene where you recorded your part
Track: Tracks are building blocks for your Arp. This gives you up to 4 building blocks to make your ONE Arp. I think this is confusing as us mere mortals probably only want one building block most of the time.

For an ARP using 1 track (building block) only, say 'Scene 2', 'Start1 End 5', Arp Track 1' set to 4, means please convert the first 4 bars of Part 4 of Scene 2 to one User Arp

For an ARP using 2 tracks (building blocks) only, say 'Scene 2', 'Start1 End 5', Arp Track 1' set to 4, 'Arp Track 2' set to 3 , means please convert the first 4 bars of Part 4 AND Part 3 of Scene 2 to one User Arp
I hope that makes sense, its hard to explain in words

Why would you possibly use more than 1 track? Combining two piano parts, building a drum kit etc or making one of those clever Mega Guitar arps referred to in Arpeggio 101

CONVERT TYPE: I'm not a super user of User Arps but this is what i think
Normal: This works for rhythms, and follows your chord voicings wonderfully. e.g if you know you want the rhythm Duh Duh De-De Duh. Then play one chord doing that in the Pattern Sequencer and Convert to Arp. When you subsequently use this Arp it will play any chord you voice Duh Duh De-De Duh.
It does NOT convert melodies correctly.

Fixed: This will always play back exactly the notes you convert. Very obviously good for drums. I also find it useful for putting in fixed parts of songs that i will never change. I play Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan and use this method to trigger the intro sequencer

Org Notes: This will convert your notes so that they can be triggered in different keys on the keyboard. You can do melodies and bass lines and old fashioned up down arpeggiators for example. It will also convert say from Major to minor depending on the chords you hold.
It recognises Maj, Min, Diminished and 7th Chords, for good results. Outside of these more obvious chords it wont always do what you want. I had a pattern based on a major chord and it would not recognise my cluster chord

Keep it simple is my advice. Try to Make the Arp one chord only or use 'Fixed'.

Andrew's comment 'One other thing, when making an arp, do it in Part 1, in an init patch, to avoid some of the problems you're experiencing.' is a good piece of advice.
Doing it this way would have your BD_BD_BD_Rim done in about 2 minutes

Finally
Merry Christmas and great choice of track

Thanks all.

I'll see if I can knock up a cheat sheet for this. I learned there are a few things different between MIDI and Pattern when it comes to making User Arps.

Using an INIT to create Arps, is sensible and I will bear it in mind. I would still like to fully understand creation inside a multipart performance.

I want to try out the Pattern Crescendo feature (Harpsichord), and pinning Scenes/Patterns/Arps together for the dub beat interludes.

Merry Xmas all.