The ideal scenario for my performance would be to be able to program it so, with the sustain pedal down, the strings have a decay (or slow release), so they linger after the key is released but fade out like the piano does, but will still sustain indefinitely if the key is held down.

There is no expected behavior for string sounds... they do not have Sustain pedals (very few instruments do).

The definition of a percussion instrument is one that is hammered, struck or plucked to trigger the musical vibration; It is friction and gravity that bring the vibration to an end eventually, in spite of the ‘misnamed’ Sustain Pedal. It does not sustain the piano indefinitely - it only staves off the inevitable end of vibration. All percussion Envelope end in 0 Level because once hammer, struck or plucked the interaction with the instrument is over for that note.

The other family of instruments are ‘self-oscillating’ instruments, mainly bowed or blown, they work so that as long as a pressure is applied to the instrument, the musical vibration continues. In these instruments sound can be sustained indefinitely by the player.

Most string sounds are sampled and setup with Waveforms that are created with a technique called “looping”. The attack, the hold portion and the end portion of the sound is sampled... the hold portion is meticulously “looped” so that the keyboard player can continue “bowing” as long as necessary. Without the looping technique you’d have the Mellotron solution (the classic Tape strings from yesteryear)... a very realistic string synth that had eight seconds of each string note held... unfortunately the sound ended abruptly at 8 seconds (who would ever need more than that!?!)... I’m pretty sure the Mellotron was the birth of the idea to loop samples. Or at least played a role...

With the looped portion continuously cycled as long as the key is held, the keyboardist could continue “bowing” or “blowing” and upon lifting their finger and/or the Sustain pedal, the envelope would advance to the Release segment.

The best way to learn how to setup such envelopes is to study sounds already behaving near or close to how you desire. Piano + Pad sounds tend to play better than Piano + Strings, for several psycho-acoustic reasons, in situations with the Sustain pedal. Your goal is to have the Strings to basically ‘play’ like the piano when you want and then to sustain indefinitely when you want.

The piano and all “percussion family” instruments have an Amplitude Envelope (AEG) where Decay 2 Level is 0.
Most string sounds the “Decay 2 Level” is set to a significant value so you can continue “bowing”, or “blowing”

Looking at most AEG settings on ensemble strings you’ll discover it is the “Decay 2 Level” that determines the Sustain portion of the string Envelope.
Looking at the AEG settings on a string sound or pad sound that is already layered with strings, study what the programmers have done (you are not the first keyboardist to layer piano and strings).

I recommend starting the experiment with single Elements first... yes, I mean Elements.
Reason first, it will give an appreciation of how powerful a single Element is alone, and second, it will be easier to adjust and immediately hear your results. (Adjusting 18 Piano Elements, and a multiple string Elements)

If you start with the Init Normal AWM2 you get the very first multi-sampled Piano Waveform with an “Organ” Envelope. It can be a great learning experience to fashion this into a piano. Working with the AEG Time and Level parameters is a great way to learn how Envelopes work

Then add a second Part, again using a single Element string orchestra Waveform. Try Waveform 986 “Ensemble Mix St” — the entire string orchestra in a single stereo Waveform.

Working with these two Parts, each a single Element, you can learn about shaping the Loudness with AEG parameters. “Time” is how long it takes to get to the next “Level” setting. And “Release” does not start until Key Off (Sustain Off), and “Release Level” is always 0 (that’s why it’s not there).

You’ll see in “Mourn Strings”, “Decay 2 Level” = 127 so it remains at full volume as long as the key is held.
You will also see that when programmers layer a piano with strings or a pad, often the “Decay 2 Level” is reduced to 80 or lower to basically have them dip in volume instead of staying at full out bowing during held notes.

You can setup so that you can adjust the response (Envelope) in real time... but first getting a good handle on how the AEG parameters work is imperative.

Since the behavior you describe might well require a real-time adjustment to the String AEG, you’ll likely want to put the strings in a second Part, then you can access the Part “Quick Edit” parameters for “Decay” and “Sustain” — these two parameters will allow you to adjust the string Envelope behavior on-the-fly. These “Quick Edit” Knob parameters (top row) can be used to “offset” the Part’s entire Amplitude Envelope (all Elements together). By offsetting the Decay and Sustain Knobs for the String Part you can find a sweet spot that works for piano flourishes.

Only you will know what feels right. Generally, what is done is, if you are going to play “piano-Type” runs across the keyboard, the strings don’t do that, and they certainly don’t sustain each note in a run... it is not how the instrument works. This is why turning the Sustain pedal Off for the self-oscillating Instruments is a common practice. Physically hold the keys when playing chords you want the strings to hold, use the Sustain pedal exclusively for the piano.

However, there is a middle ground to be explored. “Decay 2 Level” is a key to getting things right with string volume... how quickly it dies in volume is a key. Adjusting how you use the Sustain pedal is another.

Here is an exercise we use when programming, mute the piano, in your piano/string layer, now play what you are going to play using the Sustain pedal where you think it is necessary. Doing this may show you that the need for the strings to use the sustain pedal throughout is very different from playing the acoustic piano sound alone.

Adjust your pedal use so that you are listening for the string behavior over the piano behavior. Why this is an interesting exercise is because it forces you to stop thinking that there is something wrong with how String sounds behave with the very piano-centric Sustain pedal. String flourishes are a different animal from piano flourishes.

Playing an organ with a Sustain pedal, isn’t done (usually) because the build-up in tones is unforgiving... when you perform a run with Sustain pedal on a piano, the oldest note is in the process of dying out gracefully, making some room for newer ones... no such etiquette on the B3, every held note engaged would be at full blast, all the time.

Play the same thing on an organ sound, and notice your urge to use the Sustain pedal in the same way you do on an acoustic piano or Rhodes sound completely fades away. It should do the same on that string sound (which plays much like the organ in response to a Sustain pedal On message).

Why synth pad sounds seem to behave better than string orchestra sound is because the listener can forget they are listening to synthesized strings right up until they do a behavior that is unlike strings. While synth pad tones behave in a similar fashion to strings, your ear/brain is more forgiving because it has no expectation of what the synth pad should do... if it was identifying the sound as strings and suddenly they do an obvious piano run... it breaks the illusion.

Hope that helps.

Thanks... your post helps with the understanding of how layering strings and pianos works... at least it makes me think about it more. 🙂 I did look at a couple of the preset piano+string performances and found that there is an EG decay programmed that the standalone "Mourn Strings" didn't have... I also found the presets I tried have the sustain pedal active on all the parts/elements so the strings sustain with the pedal. I will have to experiment some more with different combinations of EG parameters on my strings part as well as the control switch for Sustain pedal on/off on the strings part. I'll experiment some more. I now have 3 versions of my performance... good thing the MODX has plenty of space for user performances. 🙂

But it doesn't answer my original question, which is, is there any way to program sustain pedal behavior like other controllers. In my original post, I wanted to know if there was a way to have the sustain pedal modify envelope parameters (decay and/or release) like other controllers like the mod wheel, assignable knobs/switches, other pedals etc. can. It makes sense to be able to, just for this situation. Obviously real strings don't use a sustain pedal, but when playing them layered with a piano on a single keyboard, having that added control over the strings using the sustain pedal (which I'm already using for the piano part) would be nice. Maybe I'll just wind up assigning the volume of the string part to the super knob (and thus my FC7 foot controller), and drive the performance like a stick shift car, with both feet. 🙂

My goal was to have 3 ways my strings can decay: 1) keys held down, strings sound indefinitely. 2) Keys released, no sustain pedal, strings fade quickly (release stage of EG). 3) Keys released with sustain pedal pressed, strings fade out more slowly (longer release stage, or different decay stage with sustain pedal). Without sustain pedal as a control source in the matrix, (1) and (3) are mutually exclusive.

EDIT: The version of my performance with decay added to the string part seems to be working well so far. Perhaps that is all I need, for this performance anyway. 🙂

is there any way to program sustain pedal behavior like other controllers.

No, the Sustain pedal is like no other controller.

It does not appear in the Control Matrix along with Velocity. Both Velocity and Sustain are applied where they are applied within the architecture. Velocity can be applied to the Oscillator (to influence pitch), got the Filter (to influence timbre) and to the Amplitude EG where it influences output level... Sustain parameters are found where it is applied, the Amp EG.

I thought I said that... and went right to what you can do. You can tailor the response of any sound, only you will know when it feels and plays exactly as you desire. The parameters that affect the Sustain pedal function are found on the Edit - Part - Element screen “Amplitude” > “Amp EG”

This is where you find “Decay 2 Level”, Half Damper On/Off and Half Damper “Time” as well as the scaling of the Envelope (response across the key range) and Release Adjustment. I have no need for a sound that does what you request so I have not spent anytime working with that set of requirements. But the ingredients are there for you to experiment. But the Sustain pedal is not “like other controllers”, not in the very least way. It is dedicated to doing one thing... emulating the behavior of a piano pedal, hold the keys played when you lift your hands.

Parameters the affect Sustain Pedal are in the Amp EG:
Half Damper will allow you to control “how much” Sustain - the deeper the pedal the more (longer) the Sustain. It requires an FC3A Sustain pedal and the instrument needs to be set to [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Sound” > Sustain Pedal = “FC3A (Half On)”

You can control dynamically the length of Sustain applied by how far the pedal is depressed. This traditionally is used on piano sounds but if you want to control the envelope of the strings you will want to program the Strings Elements to work with the Half Damper feature.

I’ve not applied the Half Damper to Strings... so I will not say you will not find success, just that this is one hallway I have not ventured down, as yet. If I discover something interesting, I’ll Post an example.(a little busy with all the firmware updates, right now).

Half Damper: Time
Determines how quickly the sound decays to silence after the key is released while holding down the Foot Controller FC3 with the Half Damper Switch set to On.
After releasing the key, you can control the decay time of the sound via the pedal position, with the Half Damper Time of the AEG being the maximum decay value and the Release Time of the AEG being the minimum decay value.
When you release the pedal, the decay time after the key is released is equivalent to the AEG Release Time. You can create a piano-like effect by setting the Release Time to a small value and setting the Half Damper Time to a large value.

If you come up with something interesting, feel free to share.