This has been a puzzlement, to me, too.

If I record something like the C G C G C G you show, and then save this as a "Normal" arpeggio, holding down C will play only the C - C - C - C

Holding down C and G will play the C G C G C G cycle.

But it's not reliably doing this. Which is truly odd.

When creating or working with Arpeggios it is very important to know exactly what an Arpeggio is, so that you can know for sure what it can and cannot do.

One of the major takeaways from the “Arpeggio 101” tutorials is, they are as much about the rhythm as they are the notes.
So if your Arpeggio Phrase is quarter notes — that information is actually more important than the “C”. This is because an Arpeggio can, when selected and engaged, adjust that pitch by simply changing the trigger note.

If you play “F” - It will play quarter notes on “F”… because the rhythm of what you played is an essential component of the Arp Phrase.
That said, you can change the timing, the feel, the rhythm, of an Arp Phrase by applying real-time Arp FX. These are offsets applied to the Phrase.

For example, if you want to turn your quarter note rhythm into eighth notes, you would have your Arp Phrase reference the TEMPO differently. This parameter is called “Unit Multiply”. When this is 100% your Arp phrase plays at the current tempo. A setting of 200% would mean the phrase would takes twice as long as the current tempo, to finish the same Phrase. In effect, halving the phrase tempo

By setting the UNIT MULTIPLY parameter to 50%, your quarter note phrase will play in half the time (50%)… meaning the quarter notes will sound as eighth notes against the tempo.

So in order to accomplish your goal:
Unit Multiply = 100% when you want C - C - C - C - (where the dashes are silent "ands" )
Unit Multiply = 50% when you want C G C G C G C G
You would need to coordinate the Unit Multiply change with the addition of adding the trigger note “G”.

It could, in fact, be any two Unit Multiply settings as long as the second is half that of the first… this doubles the phrase’s reference to the current tempo.

Offsets to the assigned Arpeggios Phrases can automated and recalled by Performance Scenes.
From the HOME screen:
Tap “Scene”
Activate the MEMORY Switch = On for the Arp FX
Set “Unit Multiply” as you desire for Scene 1

Tap Scene 2
Set the “Unit Multiply” to half the value set in Scene 1
Any changes made whil on the Scene screen are immediately in effect.

Thanks, and I guess the good news is that this can actually be done. Unforunately, these instructions are way beyond me. There's probably dozens of things I need to learn before I even GET to "Unit Muliply."

You referred to “Arpeggio 101” tutorials as a foundation, so I did some searching and found them (once I got past the usual 404 errors 😉 ) -- unfortunately even THAT is beyond me. For one thing, it assumes you know how to record a sequence (i.e. it says to record the first four measures of Mary Had a Little Lamb), but I've never used a sequencer, on any board.

While the end result I'm looking for itself wouldn't appear complicated, it seems like you really need to know quite a lot to make it do this, it's something for a more advanced user and probably not a sensible "first project" for someone who's never used an arp or sequence before. Maybe something to come back to some time.

You are given more than 10,000 Arpeggios, start by studying them. And yes, you need to master the Sequencer if your goal is to create your own.

Find the Arpeggio “MA_Up1Oct”
If you play one note, “C” it will repeat this over and over
If you play C and G, it will play a C and a G — the rhythm (spacing between note events) stays the same.
This is because rhythm is what is memorized in the Arp (not the Notes).

If you play one note, “D” it will repeat D over and over. This is why an Arp Phrase is as much about rhythm. The rhythm of the original data, is always maintained. On most musical Arp Phrase, the pitches adjust to your fingering instructions, but the original rhythm stays as you played it.
Think of Guitar Strums. What makes a Bossa Nova phrase…?

You’d play a three or four note chord, say C Major 7. C-E-G-B
You would create a measure or two of the rhythmic pattern.
The only importance of the C Maj7 is that you will tell the Arp Phrase converter to play this combination of Notes when it “recognizes” a C major chord.. if you play F Maj7 it raises everything a musical 4th, but plays the same rhythm
If you play an F Minor7 it raises everything a 4th, but flats the 3rd and flats the 7th. But the rhythm stays the same.
It certainly does not double time (go from quarter notes to eighth notes)

Unit Multiply is simply, how the Arp Phrase references the tempo.
A phrase that take 2 measures to play before it cycles around… will play in 50% of the time (1 measure) if you set Unit Multiply to 50% - that’s double-time.
If you have the curiosity, recording four measures of “Mary had a little Lamb” will indeed teach you much… WHEN you are ready to wade out that far from the pool’s edge..

Making your own Arp Phrases is something everybody “thinks” they can do. But it is much harder to do than they think. Often they think it has something to do with how well they play — trust me, that’s not all it takes to make a good Arp phrase. Again, Yamaha gives you hundreds so that you don’t have to make them yourself. They are to inspire… if you know exactly what you want, the best solution is to record it yourself!

There is so much to do with the existing data…
Many want the Arp Phrase to do some fantastic riff that they can’t play… well, you have to be able to enter it into the Sequencer — all Arp’s start as Sequencer data. Every one of the phrases started as MIDI sequence data.

@AnotherScott

The Yamaha "Arpeggiator" is a special, odd and confounding beast, because it's not seen much love in a very long time.

I'm an "arpist", I've lived and loved arpeggios all my musical life. And can't really play anything to save myself without an arpeggiator.

And I struggle with the the Yamaha "normal" mode of arpeggio.

So don't feel like it's just you. Yamaha has done a terrible job of introducing and surfacing what their arpeggiator is, and does, and how to best exploit it.

They can't even provide good lists of the existing arps!

And there's some potentially interesting reasons for that.

There was this wild eyed lunatic from America who created a thing called KARMA, which was kind of an attempt at making a smart 'arpeggiator', but that's understating it. It was, and is, much more. Unfortunately this genius started out with rather naive views of the business world, so just about every music hardware and software maker got a look at what he had made, and he didn't really get the right relationship with his ultimate partner, Kord.

This is more Korg's fault than his, I believe. They should have known they were dealing with an auteur of programmed responsiveness.

It was a revelation, and intimidated most of the world of music instrument makers, because it was great code and patentable ideas far beyond what anyone had previously thought could be made performant and adaptable to human input and consideration.

And it looked to be a breakthrough idea, if someone could figure out how to put this lightning in a bottle.

Korg tried, and did some amazing things with it, but also kind of stepped on their own two feet, and the inventor's, by not understanding how to make a more secure and thorough relationship with someone so talented that they'd come up with something like this. This guy is a VERY special level of programmer and thinker. Like all specialists and geniuses, they need to be treated very well. Mostly to prevent (often quite accurate) bouts of paranoia and concern.

At any rate, you can read about that long and interesting history all over the internet.

The important thing to understand is that Yamaha's arpeggiation systems have always been responses to the threat of success that KARMA represented, and the system in the MODX/Montage goes all the way back to those heady days. It's old, and the people that coded it probably long since left Yamaha. And these kinds of things are algorithmic on the one hand, and input streams on the other.

It would be great if Yamaha could do two things:

1. Provide a step sequencer within the Yamaha MODX/Montage to create and test/edit arpeggios, as nothing has ever been more suited to being programmed with a step sequencer, the very easiest of sequencers to use and program.

2. List all the ways patterns are articulated and limited/structured in all the existing arps, such that we can get an algorithmic inputs vs outputs look into what's on offer, and make smart choices with filtering... because there's over 10,000 of the things!

Jason has vehemently complained about point 2 better than anyone.

As it stands, being required to "play in" sequences for the arpeggio programming is a severe handicap to the potential of the Yamaha "arpeggiator", and greatly restricts your ability to peruse existing preset arps.

Imagine being able to load up a Yamaha arp and LOOK at it as a pattern. That'd be a huge breakthrough in usability and categorisation, discovery and usage.

Yet... they don't even seem to know this.

Almost entirely factually incorrect.

Extra Credit:
Link — Extra reading
Watch the video…

I'm an "arpist", I've lived and loved arpeggios all my musical life. And can't really play anything to save myself without an arpeggiator.

Explains a lot! MODX/MONTAGE were designed for players… thus no Step Recorder or Performance Assistance (eliminates notes not in the chord, so you can’t really hit a ‘wrong’ note, etc., etc.). Doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it but don’t hate the players, hate the game.

As I mentioned, the Arp Phrases as found in the Yamaha Library are mainly Guitar, Bass and Drum phrases, useful to recreate authentically played musical phrases on these (often difficult) instrument sounds for keyboardists.

Also used as placeholder phrases when composing. As an idea of how folks who can “play” might use this content:
When constructing a chord progression for a musical composition these Arp Phrases are used as “context”. Example, “Chillin Keys” - the Bass line is just a rhythmic presentation of the root. While outlining your chord progression this is useful. Once you have the outline the chord progression the idea is to create and overdub your own original Bass line, your own original drum groove… via Overdub.

Btw — there is a Step Recorder in Cubase AI for those that find this type of data entry helpful — it certainly has its place.
Please discover it. The computer makes placing and editing of stepped data much easier than any front panel scheme.

Thanks for the followup. I'm sorry I didn't make clear that I was already well aware of the fact that the arpeggiator includes rhythm information but not specific notes (i.e. the actual notes will change depending on what keys you play). The C- or CG patterns I used in my example would be D- or DA if I played those notes instead, I never had any confusion about that. In fact, it's what I want. I didn't know whether the rhythm itself could change depending on whether I was playing a single note or two notes, but it sounds like Unit Multiply is the answer to that, when I get that far. But I still need to crawl before I can walk.

Okay, an arp must start as a sequence, that's something I hadn't originally known. So for my C-C-C-C- example, it sounds like if that's all I wanted, I'd have to create a sequence of one note, and then I could turn that into an arp. Is that something simple enough that you (or someone here) may be able to provide a quick step-by-step, just to illustrate the basic workflow required? I understand, this arpeggio already exists as “MA_Up1Oct” (where you said "if you play one note, 'C' it will repeat this over and over), but I think creating such a simple arp from scratch would be helpfully illustrative of the approach needed to creating arps in general.

Once I get that far, the next step would seem to be to create a two-note sequence. I want the two notes to alternate, where the exact notes that alternate would depend on which two keys are being played on the keyboard. How would I specifiy the second note of the sequence? I'm guessing the second note would likewise be the same C, since I'm not looking to define any kind of interval; rather the interval between the two notes will be determined by which two notes I'm playing on the keyboard. Is this right so far?

I don't need to create a sequence/arp of multiple measures. A single repeating measure will do it. But in the end, that single repeating measure needs to essentially look like this:

... when playing a single note on the keyboard, it's NOTE-REST-REST-REST (where the NOTE is whatever key I'm playing)

...when playing two notes on the keyboard, it's NOTE-REST-NOTE-REST (where the two NOTES alternate between the two keys I'm playing)

(Though they don't literally need to be rests per se, a note could hold through the rest, that's fine too if that works better conceptually... selecting a sound with a short decay would create the same effect. So you could also look at these two scenarios as a whole note vs. two half-notes.)

But in reviewing the earlier post again, I think the biggest fly in the ointment may be in your sentence, "You would need to coordinate the Unit Multiply change with the addition of adding the trigger note 'G'" and your subsequent description of setting up Scenes. It sounds like I need to manually scene-switch to switch between these two patterns, and that won't work for my needs, because (a) I wouldn''t have an available free hand while playing this, and (b) the switching between the two patterns would be fast and frequent. So I was looking for a way to automatically have pattern A when playing a single note and automatically have pattern B when playing two notes. That is, the keyboard changes its arp behavior between the two patterns illustrated above simply based on whether I am playing one key or two keys. It sounds like this might not be possible after all...?

I understand, this arpeggio already exists as “MA_Up1Oct” (where you said "if you play one note, 'C' it will repeat this over and over), but I think creating such a simple arp from scratch would be helpfully illustrative of the approach needed to creating arps in general.

The General Arp sequences: up, down, up/down, down/up, up/down repeat top note, down/up repeat bottom note, up, down, down/up over various octave ranges, random, are not “simple” and are provided because they are not ‘simple’. Calling them simple is to not understand Arpeggiators.

The Arp Phrases the user can make are musical phrases of less than 16 unique Notes.
All of the IF/THAN statements and NTTs (Note Transposition Tables) that go into advanced Arp making are beyond the scope of User Arps.

I was looking for a way to automatically have pattern A when playing a single note and automatically have pattern B when playing two notes. That is, the keyboard changes its arp behavior between the two patterns illustrated above simply based on whether I am playing one key or two keys. It sounds like this might not be possible after all...?

Now you have it! This is not, nor was it ever, a job for the Arpeggiator.

The arpeggio engine is capable of doing some of the more advanced requests discussed but the ability for a user to create these is not exposed. This has been discussed before that, unfortunately, there are arpeggio types that cannot be replicated in user ARPs. There are ARP types that will add a new fixed note (of different rhythm) for every added piano key mostly used for drums. The 8Z(one) drums have such examples.

Hidden among the arpeggios already available - you may be able to find one that happens to react to your note input and produce the output you're after. That's a needle in the haystack problem. And this is a "may" or also "may not". This is why typically I end up creating a user ARP rather than finding one. And typically I have "normal" ARPs to make - not ones requiring the advanced features I know are buried. When I have "abnormal" requirements - I end up picking a different direction. I work with the system and its limitations.

On that note - you may be able to use ARPs in the "normal" way by burning a Part. I don't know what your note input needs to be - but if I pretend what you have given is literal and all-inclusive (meaning C and G are the only notes we're dealing with on the input) - then you can have two Parts. Say Part 1 and 2. Part 1 only responds to note input for arp triggers on C2 and Part 2 only responds to note input for arp triggers on G2. Part 1 has an ARP pattern of 4 quarter notes on the downbeat. Part 2 has an ARP pattern of 4 8th notes on the upbeats (and of 1, and of 2, and of 3, and of 4). Now if you press C2 you get only the "C" on the downbeat. If you press G2 by itself you only get "G" on the upbeat. If you hold both C2 and G2 then you get "C" on every downbeat and "G" on every upbeat.

This could be extended with limits. Your trigger range could include from C2 to F#2 for Part 1 and Part 2 from G2 to C#3. This would allow for this pattern to cover any bottom note between C and F# and any top note between G and C#. You need not play a 5th. If you hold D#2 (Eb) and G#3 (Ab) then you have an interval of a 4th between the downbeat and upbeat and not limited to C as the bottom note.

However, this "burns" a Part. If you have one to burn - I often do things like this to construct what I was originally trying to accomplish with a single Part. Because between the two Parts the Waveforms/envelopes/etc. would all be identical. Range is often used to differentiate between the two similar Parts then I may edit some other aspects (like bend range, arpeggio, etc).

I understand, this arpeggio already exists as “MA_Up1Oct” (where you said "if you play one note, 'C' it will repeat this over and over), but I think creating such a simple arp from scratch would be helpfully illustrative of the approach needed to creating arps in general.

The General Arp sequences: up, down, up/down, down/up, up/down repeat top note, down/up repeat bottom note, up, down, down/up over various octave ranges, random, are not “simple” and are provided because they are not ‘simple’. Calling them simple is to not understand Arpeggiators.

I don't want to move up or down, though. All I want to be able to do here is create something where "if you play one note, 'C' it will repeat this over and over." An arp that literally consists of one note that repeats as long as you hold the key is actually not an easy arp to create? Either way, clearly you are correct, I do not understand arpeggiators. 🙂

On that note - you may be able to use ARPs in the "normal" way by burning a Part. I don't know what your note input needs to be - but if I pretend what you have given is literal and all-inclusive (meaning C and G are the only notes we're dealing with on the input) - then you can have two Parts. Say Part 1 and 2. Part 1 only responds to note input for arp triggers on C2 and Part 2 only responds to note input for arp triggers on G2. Part 1 has an ARP pattern of 4 quarter notes on the downbeat. Part 2 has an ARP pattern of 4 8th notes on the upbeats (and of 1, and of 2, and of 3, and of 4). Now if you press C2 you get only the "C" on the downbeat. If you press G2 by itself you only get "G" on the upbeat. If you hold both C2 and G2 then you get "C" on every downbeat and "G" on every upbeat.

This could be extended with limits. Your trigger range could include from C2 to F#2 for Part 1 and Part 2 from G2 to C#3. This would allow for this pattern to cover any bottom note between C and F# and any top note between G and C#. You need not play a 5th. If you hold D#2 (Eb) and G#3 (Ab) then you have an interval of a 4th between the downbeat and upbeat and not limited to C as the bottom note.

However, this "burns" a Part. If you have one to burn

I like this solution! I might have to use up to 6 Parts to cover every combination of notes I might play with this, but that's okay. What I still need to learn how to do to even attempt this is to learn how to implement this: "Part 1 has an ARP pattern of 4 quarter notes on the downbeat." If I knew how to do that, I could probably figure the rest. Though from what BM said which I quoted at the top of this message, such a "simple" arp may not be so simple to create...?

This sounds like a MUCH easier thing to do in the Pattern Sequencer.

Patterns loop eternally, and can be as short as a single Bar looping over and over, ideal for this:

Caveat, you'll be burning Scenes rather than Parts to do it this way:

Scene 1: Record a One Bar Pattern of your C notes spaced as you want.
Scene 2: Record a One Bar Pattern of your C & G interleaved notes

For each subsequent pairing, you'll need two more Scenes. eg for D and A, as there's no easy LIVE transposing of Patterns. However, you don't need to re-record, you can go into the unbelievably byzantine "Jobs" menu to copy Scene 1 & 2 to Scene 3 & 4, and then transpose them up 2 semitones in the Jobs menu, giving you D & A in Scenes 3 & 4.

Now you can hit Play and Stop as you like, and switch Scenes to change your Patterns-as-Arps as you play.

Thanks for your input, Andrew. But similar to something I said earlier, I don't want to switch scenes because that would take two hands (and it would probably also be hard to do the switching as quickly and frequently as necessary).

To create an ARP with 4 quarter notes you would open up the Performance recorder and record playing 4 quarter notes. Then use the built-in convert to ARP feature. Use a conversion type of Org (original notes) if you want to support the C-F# range. Or fixed if really all you want are "C" notes. If you wanted to you could record yourself playing a "C" on the downbeats with fixed and, a second recording, playing "G" on the upbeats and also convert the ARP as fixed. With fixed ARP types - you could assign these to adjacent keys so you could play "C" to trigger Part 1 using the "C" downbeats then the "D" key can be Part 2 using the 2nd Arp that triggers the fixed upbeat "G" notes.

I would say just experiment at first. Use the MIDI performance recorder to record any simple pattern of notes you want. Start with single-note (not harmonic intervals). Maybe just "C" "D" "E" "F" quarter notes. Record that. Save it as a song so you can come back to the raw, non-ARP MIDI recording. Convert to an ARP - there's an option for that in the Performance recorder. Choose the fixed conversion type. Save the ARP and name it "CDEF Fixed". Take the same recording (recall the original song of CDEF) and convert it to an ARP using each of the other conversion types (Normal, Org Notes). Name them appropriately. Now pick a sound to try these ARPs out. Init Normal (AWM2) works for that. Set Arpeggio #1 to the fixed one, Arpeggio #2 to to the Org Note one, Arpeggio #3 to the Normal one. See what these do. Play different trigger notes and see what happens. Play one trigger note. Play more than one trigger note. Hear, by practice, what each does. There are tutorials that walk you through this. You can look at the arpeggio tutorials if you want.

Thanks for your input, Andrew. But similar to something I said earlier, I don't want to switch scenes because that would take two hands (and it would probably also be hard to do the switching as quickly and frequently as necessary).

VERY SORRY!!! I missed that part of the conversation. Humblest apologies for wasting your time.

How often and how spontaneously do you need to change the "key" of the arp?

And how do you ideally envisage doing this so that you can do whatever else you want as best it can be done?

And... one more question, do you have an iPad or iPhone? There might be an external way to do exactly what you want, that can be told to react to particular keys being hit.