What I do for medleys is reuse Parts between songs in a medley and optimize Part utilization. I know you've already decided this can't work for you - but it's not a bad way if you can be creative with not what to add Part-wize.

You could get a 2nd keyboard for the other Parts and not switch Performances.

BTW: is your MIDI sync external or internal? If you slave to an external clock and keep a central clock as your timing source (not MODX) then things should stay in sync.

Hi Jason,
Tried using external MIDI clock (e.g. using Camelot Pro application) but unfortunately it did not synchronized well with MODX arpeggios.
I set the performacne arpeggio to a whole note quantization but it did not sync to the off-beat at all. The arp started playing once I hit the keys instead of 'waiting' for the next whole-note (it does work well when using the Audition MIDI feature).

Therefore looks like I must use the internal MIDI clock, unless there is a working solution for this.

When you change Performances - your ARPs don't keep running. It's the way it goes. And ARPs only start after you tell them to. The start of an ARP establishes the "1" (downbeat of the 1st beat in a measure). This alignment of the ARP to the "1" is what the trigger is for and is a manual process.

I'm leaving out more complicated solutions because those normally get dismissed as too difficult to deal with. I'm sticking with the more "front of the bus" suggestions.

There's something called "global tempo" - but I'm not sure this helps when re-establishing the downbeat between Performance switches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c93RhIoHoTQ

So is there any solution to sync the offbeat of MODX Arps as slave to an external master MIDI clock?
Maybe buying any specific MIDI clock hardware will resolve it and enable to sync the offbeat quantization?
Does MODX responds to exterrnal song position/beats/bar?

I must hav this feature for our band, if there is no such solution then I'll probably need to re-program all arpeggios in a different device or software.
Thanks.

Slaving to a master clock still doesn't make ARPs keep running through a Performance change. The timing of when ARPs are fired off to start is not an automated event.

If there are any places where your tunes do not run ARPs - that's where I would switch Performances.

If your medley must have ARPs running all the time with no breaks and they all overlap without exception - then that's where either a single Performance comes in or multiple keyboards since the trigger can come from a single source for two boards.

However, if there's anywhere where an ARP doesn't need to be running - that's where the Performance switching can occur and have you re-arm once some other ARP is supposed to begin (and it's up to you to make the timing musically correct.

... say it's not the end of a tune - but somewhere in the middle where there aren't ARPs firing off at the time. Maybe switch Performances there. So Performance 1 would have the sounds until that point and Performance 2 would have only the sounds (Parts) to carry you through the end of the tune and also cover the next tune in the medley. It's a different way of looking at how you structure your Performance changes based on continuity of ARPs instead of by the "song".

If there's anything external you can trigger to cover the Performance change - so it (as itself an ARP or loop) can keep playing while you do the Performance change - then re-arm an ARP musically correct on the other side of the switch - then that's an option.

Hi Jason,

I can start the arps in the middle of a song, not while changing performances.
So I'll take your advise and try using an external MIDI clock.

But here I experience a general problem with external clock even without switching performances, while an external clock is active and running, then I press the MODX keys to start the arp, then the off-beat is not synchronized although the arps are set to a whole-note quantization. instead the arp starts immediately without of waiting to the first bar.
Is there a way to resolve that?

Arpeggios can only be started by playing the keys (or sending Note-on events). This is always going to be true. If you are using a Click or metronome to count-in, it is the performer’s responsibility to play the keys at the appropriate time to initiate the start of the Arp Phrase.

The Arp Sync Quantize Value, determines an auto correct range for the next arpeggio phrase. By setting Sync Quantize Value to a 1/4 note means playing a chord within 480 clock ticks of the next phrase start point will ensure it starts on the beat.

If you have Change Timing = Measure, your Arp Phrases will begin at Measure lines.
The Sync Quantize Value setting is how close (before the measure line) you can enter the next Arp command.

If you touch the keys after the downbeat, your Arp Phrase will be offset the amount you are late.
Say you have a count-in, but instead of you playing the keys on the downbeat of 1, you hit the keys an eighth note behind the beat (240 clock ticks), your Arp Phrase will play consistently an eighth note behind the beat. It will be in Sync but exactly offset by that eighth note. Arp Phrases always remain the same length… so if they start late, they end late.

Unlike a STYLE engine, it will not correct you to make you sound good. When your late with an auto-accompaniment STYLE engine, it will pick up the phrase so you sound in time.
The Arpeggiator engine (found in the synthesizers) assumes you played behind the beat because that is what you wanted — to shift the timing an eighth note behind the beat… turns the accents around and can be quite useful from a composing standpoint.

Thoughts on Creating Medleys with Synthesizers/Sequencers
In a previous life I used to make sound alike MIDI Files. Every now and then a request for a Medley would arise.

A “medley” is where the band creates smooth musical transitions between two or more song titles such that there is no musical pause… the arrangement of one flows smoothly into the next… and on to the next.

If your “band” is a Performance, and your “Sequence” is the musical song title, then it seem absolutely counter-intuitive to have more than one band and more than one sequence when attempting a medley.

A 3 title song medley is NOT = to 3 Performances and 3 Sequences tagged onto each other. That does not make a medley.

You need to think about *a band* and a *musical arrangement* that can smoothly handle the transitions involved. By trying to glue together multiple Performances (several personnel changes in the band) and multiple songs that already have a beginning and end, simply does not make a medley. To make it a medley you have to smooth out those very pointed edges that make them 3 separate items.

If you were making a set list and wanted to create a medley of songs by The Beatles - simply editing them one after the other does not make a medley — no matter how you cut and paste them.

You have to make a musical transition that allows the listener to *connect* the compositions, musically.

I highly recommend, that you try to look for the core of instruments, those you want to keep the same in all song titles and only change those necessary (using as few Program Changes as possible)… in other words, if a traditional rhythm section is involved keep those instruments playing during the musical transition… continuity is word you want to think about when constructing a medley. If the guitarist changes from Electric to acoustic, you can pull stuff like that off, no problem. But if you think you can change 16 instruments during a medley transition and keep timing (I don’t think so).

if the drummer and everyone else in the band changes instruments all at the same time, the listening audience loses the sense of connectedness that is one of the purposes of ‘the medley’.

You want to create the illusion it’s the same band, transitioning cleverly through several song titles that make sense to link together because of composer or association with an artist… etc. could be a James Bond Theme medley…etc.

Musically, you must be clever enough to make the transition smooth… and interesting. That's where you earn your money… finding that spot to musically transition…

…a dead stop, while it can accomplish this goal, is perhaps the least interesting… sound effects can be used. But you get a greater sense of connection when it’s a musically clever transition.

That said, if you must change instrumentation, I recommend use Program Changes to change the least amount of instruments song title to song title… and definitely utilize only one sequence to cover all song titles. That is imperative to create the feel of a medley. Avoid changing the entire Performance if possible.

Doing so you can avoid the obvious pauses that will occur when you attempt to use 3 Performances and 3 different sequences to create a medley. It’s easier to make a jumpsuit from a single piece of cloth, than it is from a jacket, a vest and pants sown together. It is easier to construct the 3 songs separately, no doubt, but when thinking medley, you must think of the entire medley as one song.

I would transfer the multiple song titles so they are positioned one after the other in a single linear sequenced entity… then go about composing the musical transition measures that will ultimately connect the compositions. I would try to avoid 3 separate entities, in 3 separate locations.

If you want to create a Medley (in the traditional definition) think “same band smoothly making musical transitions between several song titles” but the result is one sequenced song!

Extra Credit - non-traditional Medley
I’ve been able to do crossfades… have several Parts as one band (Super Knob at minimum) and crossfade to several other Parts as a second band (Super Knob at maximum) — while not really a medley, (guess you’d call it a DJ’s Medley) as you are actually crossfading between two separate musical titles. This works well for certain genres of music… as you're fading out one, you are fading in the other (as if you had two turntables).

Hope this helps… there is no right way or wrong way to try to approach this — but having been challenged with this very same issue, I found the value of the medley (for the listening audience) is in the rather smooth transition from title to title. One band, non-stop through several song titles.

Hi Bad Mister,
Thank you for the detailed answer.

If you have Change Timing = Measure, your Arp Phrases will begin at Measure lines...

This did not work unfortunately, I did the following:
* Set the Arp with a whole-note quantization.
* Set Timing = Measure.
* Started an external MIDI clock
* Now I pressed the keys...
Result: the Arp started playing immediately, it did not sync to the next off-beat.
It only synchronizes to the external tempo, but not to the off-beats.

Regarding the medley, I'm in an 80s tribute band playing the sounds as much as close to the original we can. Therefore I need to use lots of parts and switch performances, I have no other choice in this case.
E,g. the first two songs in the medley are:
* Drop the pilot - currently using 6 parts.
* Come back and stay - currently using 13 parts.

If using the Audition MIDI as clock source, then the MODX MIDI clock breaks while switching the performances.
If using MODX as slave to an external MIDI clock then I can freely switch performances, but I cannot use the Arps because they are not synched to the off-beat (as I described above).

Hi Bad Mister,
Thank you for the detailed answer.

I did not so much provide you an answer, as much as I did a reason why what you are attempting is not working. I know it is not directly helpful but the hope was you could see why and then maybe adjust your approach. If you cannot, then at least you would know *why* it’s not working as you expect.

Internal clock or external clock it does not matter, the Arp Phrase begins when you strike the Keys.

If you are late against the clock, your Arp Phrase will be clock-shifted late. It will lock into step, like gears. But instead of being on the downbeat, if you’re late, it locks in, late.
You get some help from the technology with timing when introducing new chord information on all subsequent Arp commands… but the start command is fixed to Note-on.

You get no help from the technology when syncing to the CLOCK start… other than, if you are using Arpeggios with internal clock, you would utilize key-on to start play - no big deal, as soon as you touch the keys it STARTs. However, if you are sync’ing your MODX to an external clock, then you must rely on a count-in in order that your note-on start command events to land musically in the right place, timing-wise. Without that count-in you are pretty much guaranteed to not be close to correct. You need to know where that external clock is in its count.

What I’m attempting to explain is: you get no help from the technology, except for an external clock count-in, in order to synchronize the start on MODX Arp Phrases will take the same musical skill of striking the keys when performing without an Arpeggiator.

It’s a kind of freewheeling…you’ve got two turntables spinning at the same exact tempo, the first turntable is playing, the music coming from the one you are bringing on the fly, is cued up to the top of the phrase, you must release it so they musically match. If you’re late releasing that platter, they will play at the same speed - but one offset late to the other.

the MODX sync’d to external clock - will run at the exact same tempo. You have a Phrase “cued up” waiting for you to tell it to START…
you must hit the key precisely so it has a chance to lock step with the external clock… make a count-in and trigger the Arps accordingly.
Arp Sync Quantize Value will help you when changing chord quality at the appropriate time.

If using the Audition MIDI as clock source, then the MODX MIDI clock breaks while switching the performances.
If using MODX as slave to an external MIDI clock then I can freely switch performances, but I cannot use the Arps because they are not synched to the off-beat (as I described above).

Correct assessment of current situation. You must use note-on events to trigger Arp Phrases to start - it is the performer’s responsibility to start them in tempo - this, again will always be true.

So to make sure I understand, if an external clock is active and before any arps are active - then the moment in time in which I'm manually pressing the keys to activate the arps will set the offset timing. The MODX cannot detect and follow the external clock start time. Is this correct?

In a live situation it is easy to do mistakes and hit the keys a little out of time which will cause the whole arp to not be musical, this is a big risk.

When I'm using the internal clock and I press the Audition button then the Arp quantize does work correctly. Mabye there is a workaround in which the Audition or internal sequencer MIDI engine can sync silently to the external clock start command?

Unless an ARP is already running - an Arpeggio doesn't know where the "1" is. When you start an ARP - it sets the "1" according to what's called the trigger of an ARP. An ARP trigger is what changes the state of the ARP from off to running. The trigger is going to be your pressing a piano key.

There is a way to trigger an ARP that plays silence. When you trigger this ARP it will "start" and still not have any sequence playing. Then later when you switch your ARP to something that does sound - it will know where the "1" is according to your initial trigger of the ARP. These ARP types are labeled as "Mute X/Y" where X/Y is the time signature.

I think what I see as a theme in your responses is the misconception that somehow the "1" (downbeat of each measure) is understood by your instrument and can be resolved from a clock. It can't. Say your in some quarter note time (X/4) - then the clock itself is in 1/4 time. 1 beat per measure. You don't define where beat 1 is until you initially trigger your ARP - then it is known where the "1" is (where you trigger it). It could be any beat. Say the clock has been running for around a thousand pulses when you decide to trigger your ARP. The "1" could be on pulse # 998, 999, 1000, 1001 ... etc. The instrument doesn't intuitively know which pulse is the downbeat. Only when you trigger your ARP do you define this.

Changing Performances presents a problem if you want to keep the "1" in the same spot and somehow run ARPs through all of this. You have to stop the ARP on your instrument. This is why I say get away of thinking as 1 Performance = 1 song inside a Medley. You'd be better off just knowing what the limitations are and sculpting something that changes Performances in the cracks when there isn't so much of a need for an ARP to be running.

My experience is that transitions of songs are more "manual" and do not have sequences to handle these and are already a spot I would want to turn off ARPs - but I don't really know your music nor can I assume anything based off of what I play.

It has been said in two different ways to keep as many instruments the same as possible from one tune of a medley to another. Two rationales have been given - 1) musical continuity (easier for the audience to follow) 2) Resources/instrument limitation management - you may be able to keep everything in a single Performance (which is easier to deal with since ARPs do not have to stop).

There are plenty of cases where tunes within the Medley do not have the same synth sound - or same string sound. However, I often reuse the synth + string sounds from the 1st tune in a medley because it's not that far - still sounds fine - and gets me out of having to have a 2nd Performance. It's up to you of course.

Very interesting thread, thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

I saw BadMister mentioned that sending "Note-On" [from an external midi source] data would trigger the arp, which seems to work with Arp Midi Out set to "off." I'd like my external midi sequencer to both be able to trigger the arp and receive the arp notes from ModX. From looking at the signal flow diagram in the Midi I/O it seems that this is not possible as they are mutually exclusive.

Just wanted to check to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[quotePost id=118752]Very interesting thread, thanks to all for sharing your knowledge.

I saw BadMister mentioned that sending "Note-On" [from an external midi source] data would trigger the arp, which seems to work with Arp Midi Out set to "off." I'd like my external midi sequencer to both be able to trigger the arp and receive the arp notes from ModX. From looking at the signal flow diagram in the Midi I/O it seems that this is not possible as they are mutually exclusive.

Just wanted to check to make sure I'm not missing anything.[/quotePost]

This is possible over USB MIDI, with Reaper. Set a track to receive your MIDI Controller/Sequencer notes and then send that out to the MODX on the Channels you want, via adding sends to an empty track for each Channel you want to send these to. Kind of like a Master track receiving your Sequence/MIDI, then broadcasting to other tracks. If you do the first "slave" track after creating the Master track, and make that work, and then duplicate this slave track as many times as you need and change its Channel number appropriately in each, Reaper does the rest of the addition to the sends on the Master track automatically.

This is one of VERY FEW concessions to usability in Reaper. Don't let it fool you, just about everything else about using Reaper is 110% manual operation and manual configuration and research and trial and error. Reaper is the only thing that competes with Blender in this sense.

WARNING: Do not make your Slave tracks into Children of the Master track, just leave them as normal tracks. There's something funky about Child tracks in Reaper that's quite annoying and I can't be bothered isolating what's going on/wrong with them, as I can instead choose not use this facility and have things work as expected.

To record, you'll need yet another track for each MODX played arp track/channel you want to record, set to the appropriate channel to do that recording. Make sure these tracks are not then outputting/sending back to the MODX, as this will create chaos real quick.

Then play a bit of tiddlywinks with the MIDI setup page on the MODX. And it works... after a few twiddles. That I don't remember the exact config of. It's Arp Record on DAW and then something else has to be changed, as I don't think this immediately works, but I could be wrong about that... it might just work. But it's not consistent, from memory.

And I vaguely remember having to twiddle with something to actually hear what was being recorded, too, in a strange way.

I've not been able to get this to work in any other DAW. Only Reaper. Which is ironic because Reaper's strengths are traditionally audio files and recording and editing audio, definitely NOT working with MIDI and especially not editing MIDI notes and events.