Live Set + is a function of the locally connected footswitch. You cannot send an external command to simulate pressing the footswitch.

If your Kronos set list feature matches the order of your MODX - you would need to Kronos to send the proper Bank+PC (MSB/LSB/PC) messages to have MODX switch to the expected Performance.

Alternatively, you can use a central piece of software that controls both keyboards and has its own Set List feature. Something like Camelot Pro - or other offerings out there.

Camelot is useful because it has profiles pre-built which understand MODX's Performance names. And also generally knows how the keyboard works to provide you with an easy interface to manipulate it. Perhaps there's Kronos profiles too - I'm not that deep on Camelot.

Hi Jason!
I did not know what you say about the pedal switch, thanks for the clarification!
I will explore how to use PC messages to achieve my purpose, since I do not contemplate using camelot or other additional external help.
Regards!

If your Kronos set list feature matches the order of your MODX

I don't understand the relevance of "matching the order."

But I agree with having one point of control to change the sounds on both boards, when you always use patch X on one board with patch Y on the other. Without any external device (as requested), it would be a matter of either creating a recallable MODX Performance that simultaneously send the appropriate patch change to the Kronos, OR creating a recallable Kronos Combi that simultaneously send the appropriate patch change to the MODX. An advantage of this (compared to his initial thought of trying to simultaneously advance each board's set list independently)--also getting back to the comment above--is that there's no need to keep the paired patches on both boards in sync, i.e. in the same order. Calling up a given song on whichever you designate as the master board will always get you all the sounds you need on both boards, regardless of whether you did any advance work to "position" them in the same order on their respective boards. That's a time save if you'd need to re-order your set lists for different gigs.

But just in case someone does want to advance the two boards simultaneously (assuming both allow you to advance through sounds with a footswitch), you could do what some people have done when trying to use a sustain pedal on two boards simultaneously... put a pair of the simple square sustain pedals right next to each other (maybe velcro'd to a piece of plywood) so you could hit them both at the same time.

Matching the order business (I think you got it but just in case):

Live Set in MODX is a linked list of Performance shortcuts. Each slot has a previous and next. So there is an order to the Performances.

Pretend like somehow MODX sent a message out its MIDI port that said "go to the next live set slot" and Kronos could understand this. Pretend the reverse was true - that Kronos could also send such a message.

Then if you wanted to advance to the next Performance in MODX and next Combi/Program in Kronos - then the two Set Lists would need to have the same order (they'd have to be in sync). The magic message could be sent from either keyboard and the two keyboards would always be synchronized with respect to the Live Set location.

The sync was mentioned if all that was leveraged was "advance to the next" and not absolute messages sending bank+pc.

... that's not the best way (as alluded to).

If Kronos can respond to MSB/LSB/PC - then you could just use MODX, advance to the next Live Set, and MODX would send the MSB/LSB/PC targeting Kronos for Kronos to recall the correct Combi. I'm not a Kronos expert - so I don't have those details or if this is a valid feature. On MODX's side, you would use Zone Transmit to setup any arbitrary MSB/LSB/PC for each Performance in your MODX Set List so it would send this programmed MSB/LSB/PC tuple to Kronos each time you advanced to the next Live Set position using the footswitch connected to MODX.]

Likewise, if Kronos could send the MSB/LSB/PC tuple to MODX - then you could exclusively use Kronos's set list feature to advance through the list assuming Kronos has a similar footpedal option as well. Using either of these options would alleviate from having to keep live sets in order on both keyboards. You would only use one or the other keyboard to change Performances/Combis/Programs for both as the Live Set would cover the local keyboard and Bank+PC would cover the remote keyboard.

Still, as you mentioned, if you wanted to be able to touch the live set of either keyboard and have the right thing happen on the other keyboard - then both would need the MSB/LSB/PC (like MODX Zone Transmit options) programmed. All Live Set entries on both MODX and the Kronos would send the bank+pc message to the remote keyboard for the remote keyboard to match the correct Performance/Combi/Program of the local keyboard. It wouldn't matter if the Set Lists matched or not between the two keyboards in terms of order. It wouldn't matter if you used one keyboard's set list or the other.]

If it were me, I'd probably use the Kronos setlist and only use Kronos' touchscreen to change the MODX Performance + Kronos Combi/Program. There's slightly more room for notes and other features. The display options are a bit more flexible with Kronos. And I wouldn't want to keep both keyboards in sync with respect to changes to pointers. This is not an order thing (order doesn't matter) - but if I add/change the Performance, for example, on MODX - meaning the location is a different MSB/LSB/PC now - then I'd have to make the change across two keyboards to keep that coherency. Which can be avoided by picking only one master.

Lots of options - so feel free to pick your favorite solution.

I do not give with it. Does the modx send and receive program change messages specific to live set mode?

Program Change messages should be paired with Bank LSB and MSB messages. The Data List documents the MSB/LSB/PC combinations which apply to Live Set.

As such, there is no "Live Set Mode" when dealing with Bank+PC (program change). MODX need not be in any particular screen in order to respond to the Bank+PC that align with Live Set.

When send a Bank+PC set of messages, as long as there is a valid Performance saved inside the Live Set "slot", the response of the keyboard is to load a Performance. These Performances are all the same Performances that are "outside" of Live Set (Factory Preset Performance OR User Performance OR Library Performance).

When this "regular old" Performance is recalled, the Performance acts normally as if you loaded the "native" Performance (there's one exception - Volume - which can be offset by Live Set - but that's not of concern to your question).

When any "regular old" Performance (Preset OR User OR Library) is recalled, a set of Bank+PC messages are SENT only under certain conditions. None of the Preset Performances send these messages. The reason is that in order to send these messages, the PART's Zone Transmit must be turned on (and Zone Master as well). Zone Master is not stored inside a Performance - that's a switch you set globally. The PART level Zone Transmit is turned ON/OFF inside the Performance. All of the Preset Performances have PART-level Zone control turned off. Zone transmit is turned off for all Presets, so no Bank+PC messages are sent.

You're going to have to create User Performances that have Part Zone Control turned on. Then you'll have also turn on (under Zone Transmit) sending MSB+LSB+PC and assign values to each of these.

Libraries created from your User Bank will inherit the Zone Control settings inside the user Performances. Once loaded (installed) into a Library, you cannot edit/modify/change the PART level Zone Control of Library Performances (Library area is "read only" ).

If you convert Motif content and tell Montage to load (install) the conversion inside a Library - my guess is that all of these Performances will have Zone Control turned off, just like Presets do. I haven't verified this - but it wouldn't make much sense for the converter to "guess" what MSB/LSB/PC you wanted to assign to each Performance for transmit.

I would also guess that all Libraries supplied by Yamaha and 3rd party content providers will also have their Library Performances have PART level Zone Control turned off.

If you wanted to modify this so a Library you did not create (one you downloaded/purchased) will send MSB/LSB/PC messages when you change to the Performance - you're going to need to import the Library Performance to the User bank, modify the Zone Control and other settings, then re-assemble the Library with your modified Performances (saving the result as a new Library file).

Does the modx send and receive program change messages specific to live set mode?

No...

...MODX sends Program Changes from within a Performance (which, in turn, can be invoked from within a Live Set, but doesn't need to be). For what to do within the Performance, see https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/modx-montage-zones-with-usb-midi - it's not your exact question, but the answers apply.

...MODX can receive program change messages at any time

Similarly, if you want to do it the other direction...

...Kronos sends Program Changes from within a Combi (which, in turn, can be invoked from within a slot in Set List mode). Within the Combi, for any Program Change you want to send out, you set a Timbre to EXT (or EX2 to enter additional parameters if needed), and the tricky part is that you don't actually enter the desired Program Change number, instead you select the internal Program that corresponds to the Program Change you want to transmit (it will send that change externally instead of using it to select the internal sound because you chose EXTernal).

...Kronos can receive program change messages at any time

Finally the solution has been to use the conventional foot switch with a "Y" cable so that with the same pedal active both keyboards. Thanks for all your contributions, but through midi I was not able to make it work.

Regards!

In the meantime I also use Camelot Pro.
My iPad ( iPad Pro 1st generaton ) doesen´t crash when I´m using AUv3 plugins.
CP solves a lot of my problems.

@Jesus

I will have to renounce parts 9-16 live until Yamaha decides (if it decides) that those parts can be controlled with the internal MODX keyboard.

You can place “merge” any eight Single Part Performances to MODX Parts 9-16, and you can play each of them by directly selecting them, one at a time.

If it is that you cannot link them for simultaneous play, that feature belongs to Parts 1-8. You link Parts with the KBD CTRL icon. This does not mean they all play simultaneously (or though you can do that) it means they are addressed simultaneously. You dynamically build the sound you need as you perform... morphing between them, playing them in various combinations, bringing in various musical articulations.

Once you are viewing 9-16 in the screen, you can access them by touching the Part # box for the one you wish to play, or by using the [Cursor Arrows] to move the highlight.

Transitioning between Parts within the same Performance is seamless with no interruption of the sound.

If you have not done so, please read the following two articles that discuss how you can take advantage of the PERFORMANCE as a place to store and gain access to the sounds you wish to play while onstage.

Mastering MODX: Performance Basics 1
Mastering MODX: Performance Basics 2 and the “Live Set”

I am hoping to have my Montage8 this month, so I basically don't know too much yet, except for what I'm reading in forums, but I do plan to check out the two links above that you provided to better understand Performance basics before I even have my new keyboard; however I am curious about a few things after reading what you said above.

I am thinking I will take full advantage of 'Scenes' when I configure/build the sounds I will need out of a Performance.
Is "merge" a feature that allows you to combine/layer parts 1&9, 2&10, etc., or does it allow you to merge two different performances to play under KBD CTRL at the same time for a total of parts 1-8 x 2 (16 parts if combining 2 performances), or is it something completely different? If it does allow me to combine/layer parts 1&9, 2&10, etc, can that be configured in a Scene, so that I just have to select the particular Scene, and everything is set? Similar question, if the answer is that it's a merge of two different performances to play under KBD CTRL, does the Scene(s) in one performance allow you to switch up which of the 1-8 x 2 parts(of both performances) will play when hitting the keys?

Using KBD CTRL, can I play ANY 8 parts out of the 16 available or is it only parts 1-8 that can be played at the same time?
Asked a different way, can I (for example) in Scene 1, use KBD CTRL on Parts 1-4 & 13-16 so that those 8 are the ones I can play at the same time in that scene? Or am I bound to only play 1-8 on the keyboard? (aside from the option you mentioned above about selecting a specific part in the 9-16 range, one at a time...which I have an additional question on: If I were to directly select part 16, could all the other parts 1-8 that have KBD CTRL enabled sound as well, or does only part 16 play alone?)

I assume that I can have 8 parts that are controlled/played by the onboard sequencer, while I play the other 8 parts on the keyboard at the same time, for a possible total of 16 parts playing at one point or another, is that correct!?

Is "merge" a feature that allows you to combine/layer parts 1&9, 2&10, etc., or is it something completely different?

”Merge” is something completely different. Merge is when you take one Performance and combine it it with another Performance, so that now all the Parts are available within one program. If you take a Single Part Performance, like “Full Concert Grand” Acoustic Piano and “merge” it with a second Single Part Performance, like “Upright Bass”, you will now have created a new two Part Performance. Merging is that simple and that complex. Now, that the two Parts are in the same Performance you can play them as a Layer across all keys, you could split them to different regions of the keyboard. You can design how, when and if they sound.

Merge is the act of combining... so it’s not that you could not have your Piano in Part 1 and then “merge” the second sound to Part 9, you certainly could. Nothing prevents you from doing so... because “merge” is the act of combining Performances. But if your goal is to play multiple Parts simultaneously you will want to place the merged Parts in slots 1-8.

A Performance is a MODX program that contains as few as one Part, or as many as sixteen Parts.
Only the first eight Parts can be linked to play simultaneously from the keys.
This is referred to as under KBD CTRL (Keyboard Control).
The MODX (as of this date) comes with 2143 Performances... all of which are made from one to eight Parts.
There are no 16 Part Factory Presets... there is a template with all 16 Parts active for using the MODX as a 16 Part multi-timbral Tone Engine. “Multi/GM”

Each Part, in MODX, is a complete synth... it can be an entire instrument or it can be a component that combined with others make an instrument.
The maximum number of Parts you link together for real-time play via the Keyboard is 8. And as the article points out that’s always 1-8.

If you have one Part with KBD CTRL active, the other fifteen are available for individual selection, or to play data from a .mid File.
If you have two Parts with KBD CTRL active, the other fourteen are available for individual selection, or to play data from a .mid File.
If you have three Parts with KBD CTRL active, the other thirteen are available for individual selection, or to play data from a .mid File.
And so on.
If you have no Parts with KBD CTRL active, each is an individual and will play when selected, or can be played by a .mid File.

Using KBD CTRL, can I play ANY 8 parts out of the 16 available or is it only parts 1-8 that can be played at the same time?

The KBD CTRL icon is available for Parts 1-8, only. You can play any of the sixteen Parts, but you can only play those linked by KBD CTRL at the same time. What is not immediately understood is the type of control you have among those KBD CTRL Parts... if you are thinking it’s like they are on the same MIDI Channel — that’s incorrect. Each Part under KBD CTRL is addressed directly by your controllers through a very power Control matrix. Simple MIDI channel layers behave all together... open the filter, all filters open, close the filter all filters close.... but in the MODX, it’s quite different, dramatically different: you can address each filter separately (and there could be scores of them).

Asked a different way, can I (for example) in Scene 1, use KBD CTRL on Parts 1-4 & 13-16 so that those 8 are the ones I can play at the same time in that scene?

A “Scene” addresses all Parts of a Performance... it can recall parameters concerning the assigned Arp and Motion Sequence, Mute status, Super Knob position, and settings concerning the built in digital mixer. It does not change or influence the fact that simultaneous play from the keys is restricted to Parts with KBD CTRL active.

What it’s hard to understand (before you actually sit down with one) is the following... just because the first 8 Parts are placed under KBD CTRL does not mean they all play at the same time... it’s that you can design when and how you transition between them. That’s the key. Rarely if ever are all eight sounds playing simultaneously (Frankly, we wouldn’t need the cadre of the world’s finest synth programmers to simply layer eight sounds)... it all about the artful use of thes Parts to offer musical flexibility. Anyone can just link Parts in a stack and play them (that’s not clever).

For example, a four Part Brass Performance offers the player multiple articulations normal play, sforzando swell, fall-Off, octave horns, pitch scoop... etc. all from one Performance... the multiple Parts are used when the player wishes to execute the particular articulation.

You are given over 1300 Single Part programs... the idea is if in a song you need piano, strings, brass, and organ, you would merge these into a Performance... transitioning between sounds in the same Performance can always be worked out to be quick and completely seamless with just a little programming skill.

I assume that I can have 8 parts that are controlled/played by the onboard sequencer, while I play the other 8 parts on the keyboard at the same time, for a possible total of 16 parts playing at one point or another, is that correct!?

That is one possibility. But not a likely scenario. Hope you understand why it’s not a likely use of the possibilities.if not, it will become clearer when you sit down and recognize the power of the system.

While the Keys can simultaneously address as many as 8 Parts, the Super Knob and the Scenes address all 16 Parts. So you can be playing the KBD CTRL Parts and simultaneously changing all manner of parameters on any of the 16 Parts as you design. This means you can be changing the mix on the tracks playing back from a MIDI File while you address those Parts you wish to play live with the keys and other controllers.

A Performance is a MODX program that contains as few as one Part, or as many as sixteen Parts.
Only the first eight Parts can be linked to play simultaneously from the keys.
This is referred to as under KBD CTRL (Keyboard Control).
The maximum number of Parts you link together for real-time play via the Keyboard is 8. And as the article points out that’s always 1-8.

Thanks, just as I feared! I wish Yamaha didn't restrict the KBD CTRL to 1-8, as I can think of numerous senarios where I would want to utilize over 8 parts via KBD CTRL in a Performance while having other parts controlled by sequencing. For live gigs I can easily see needing 10-12+ parts available for access in different scenes, as I will just have the 1 keyboard for everything. Sequencing could likely be parts 9-12, but I could easily use parts 1-8 + 13-16 for multiple layers and splits in different combinations via different scenes. Unfortunate that I am limited to only 8 parts that I can play with on the keyboard. I may want a 4 or 5 part piano sound, with 2-3 part strings layered, and a 2 part synth lead, and a 2 part guitar lead, plus a 2 part vocoder sound at the high end to add to vocal harmonies. I love lots of layers and 12+ playable voices/parts would not be unusual for me if it's possible...
What if someone wanted to layer the most awesome 16 part strings/choir voices/pad/piano/etc. sound? This is currently limited to 8 parts playable on the keyboard, but why..!?

I don't know if it will do any good, but I added an idea on Ideascale to request opening up KBD CTRL to 1-16 and not limit the amount of parts that can be played at the same time. Hopefully others see the value in this and will "Up Vote" my idea, as I will only have the 1 keyboard and wish to have the maximum layering power possible! (see link below)
Since this is only involves a software change (not hardware), hopefully it is a more doable request that can be easily changed in a future OS release!

Expand KBD CTRL to 16 parts:
https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Expand-KBD-CTRL-to-16-parts/223218-45978

What if someone wanted to layer the most awesome 16 part strings/choir voices/pad/piano/etc. sound?

That might not be especially usable... with 128 total polyphony, a 16 part layer would be reduced to 8 notes of polyphony. Which can be even less than 8 playable notes, if you're using Parts that, themselves, use multiple instances of polyphony on a single keypress (like the organs which can use up to 8). Okay, you can pick up a bit more if you use some FM, which has its own additional polyphony.

But 16-part splits (where all the sounds are available, but are not all always playing simultaneously) could be more viable.

While it would be nice to have the option you're talking about built in, if someone must have freely assignable keyboard control over 16 Parts at once, I think you could do it by attaching a second keyboard that has 16-zone capability. That is, if you attached a Korg Kross to your MODX, for example, I believe you could mix and match up to 16 MODX sounds at once from the Kross (or any Korg workstation). I think the Roland FA and possibly DS would work as well, And really, I think it's always nice to have two boards anyway, to have hammer and non-hammer actions at your disposal.

If you want to stick with the MODX alone, there might be another way to do it... turn Local Off, and use the MIDI or USB jacks to connect to an iPad running KeyStage or (as mentioned earlier in the thread) Camelot Pro, both of which I think can create recallable presets that split/layer a single channel of MIDI IN any way you want over 16 channels of MIDI OUT. I think you could set up your MODX Performances (i.e. in your Live Sets) such that they would send a Program Change to the iPad app which would in turn invoke the 16-way split/layer you want to be associated with that Performance. (The discussion of Camelot Pro earlier in the thread discussed using it in conjunction with an external board that didn't, itself, have 16-zone capabilities; but the variation I'm talking about here is using it without a second board, instead using it with the MODX alone in Local Off mode, which kind of turns the MODX's own keys into an "external board." )

I haven't done these things myself, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who has, about any caveats to be aware of, or any reason this might not do what you're looking for.

What if someone wanted to layer the most awesome 16 part strings/choir voices/pad/piano/etc. sound?

That might not be especially usable... with 128 total polyphony, a 16 part layer would be reduced to 8 notes of polyphony. Which can be even less than 8 playable notes, if you're using Parts that, themselves, use multiple instances of polyphony on a single keypress (like the organs which can use up to 8). Okay, you can pick up a bit more if you use some FM, which has its own additional polyphony.

I can easily see this as a usable option if someone has more than one keyboard and wants to use the MODX or Montage for a massive synth solo or massive 2-4 note strings with close to 16 layers, combining the best of AWM2 and FMX...

But 16-part splits (where all the sounds are available, but are not all always playing simultaneously) could be more viable.

Just another perfect example of why this would be a great option to have!

I think you could do it by attaching a second keyboard that has 16-zone capability. That is, if you attached a Korg Kross to your MODX, for example, I believe you could mix and match up to 16 MODX sounds at once from the Kross (or any Korg workstation).
If you want to stick with the MODX alone, there might be another way to do it... turn Local Off, and use the MIDI or USB jacks to connect to an iPad running KeyStage or (as mentioned earlier in the thread) Camelot Pro

My reason for wanting this on the Montage8 alone is to keep everything simple when doing live gigs. One keyboard, no additional iPads, laptops, keyboards, etc. Just one keyboard that does it all!
I don't have an iPad, nor would I want to bring anything additional to gigs. As it is, the MODX & Montage will likely do everything I need or want to do live without any additional equipment plugged in. However, it would just be nice to have a few extra 'Parts' available in a Performance to expand the possibilities when switching between different Scenes. I can easily see many people using 10-12 parts in layers/splits/etc. at various times in different Scenes, while 4-6 parts are playing via the onboard sequencer. It would be awesome to have an extra 3 or 4 parts to play with...

This is just a programming change that Yamaha could do without too much trouble. Far easier and less expensive than a hardware change...

Finally the solution has been to use the conventional foot switch with a "Y" cable so that with the same pedal active both keyboards. Thanks for all your contributions, but through midi I was not able to make it work.

Regards!

Hello again

I thought everything worked perfect, but when it comes to the truth, something is not right. With the cable in "Y" the function of passing from one slot to another was fine, always, but something was wrong: Every time I go to the next slot, the count must be prepared in the kronos in standby mode (flashing light) list to start when you play any key both kronos and modx, and this happens in 90% of the set list, but there is a small percentage of slots, where this works incorrectly. What happens is that when you press the pedal and simultaneously change the slots of both keyboards (kronos and modx) the clapperboard "goes crazy" and does not act as programmed, instead of remaining in standby, it starts working without previously touch any key of neither of the two keyboards. I have tried to disconnect the pedal and manually perform the slot changes and it does not give any problem so I have ruled out in principle that it is a configuration fault in these specific sounds (slots). Thinking that it could be pedal failure, I built a different pedal, instead of using a "Y" cable now two cables come out in parallel from the pedal, the cables are independent even if they are operated with a single button. This has not worked either. If the problem is not the pedal and neither the sound configuration of the keyboards, I have come to the conclusion that it must be a mixture of factors, which occur in a very small percentage of sounds (slots). Even in these sounds where the clapper fails, it does not always fail, but sometimes it fails and sometimes it does not.
It only occurs to me that some kind of midi message is getting in the way and the keyboards get "clogged up" by excessive data accumulation ... I do not know!
Initially in the global kronos mode (Utility on Yamaha) I put midi clock in external mode to send Modx but the clatter fluctuated so I put midi clock in Internal and created slots in Kronos that coincided in the tempo with Yamaha and subject solved Still, I tried to change this in case the problem of the clapper was caused by this, but it's not like that either.

Any suggestions?

Thank you!