@Richard... just to be clear, I am not Yamaha staff... I am just another user like you.

Regards the complexity of the MODX (or any powerful synth for that matter), then yes, there is a lot to learn.

The pay-off for learning is the power to build things however you like them... approaching 100% customisable.

If you don't have the patience to read the manuals and understand its operating system, then maybe an Arranger is the best solution for you.

Speaking for myself, I prefer the ability the MODX has to sculpt sounds specifically to my needs. What I don't like about Arrangers, or Stage Keyboards, is having to choose sounds from a limited set.

It is fair to say that the Yamaha "MO" series Synthesisers have moved more towards "Arranger" options, than Arrangers have ever moved towards "Synth" options.

To be sure, you will not find instant gratification with the MODX, you have to put in the hours.

That said, the amount of MODX Presets is quite staggering, and without too much effort, you can usually find one that is "close", and modify it for your needs. Still, it isn't a free lunch.

[quotePost id=116313]Andrew,

I believe you when you say that sentence is a lie, especially if you've been using the MODX longer than me (I've been using it only a week) I think it is in fact helpful for people to point this out. I am on the verge of returning this thing, as I pointed out to someone else on this thread. I'm going to get an arranger instead, probably the SX900. This whole Yamaha interface experience on the MODX is just not for me. Patience has nothing to do with it. I can tell early on it will be a struggle for a while, and that's unfortunate.[/quotePost]

I use a LOT of equipment and software, across multiple industries, and get to see hundreds of others using these same things at far greater proficiency than I'll ever have.

Your gut instincts are right. The MODX, in particular, has a horrid interface. Nothing about it is designed to be intuitive, nor considerate of creative's desires to achieve and stay in a flow state. Many things aren't there, at all, that you might normally expect in something like this, and somethings are huge head scratchers. Like the envelopes - which are the most important aspect of a "modern" synth, but Yamaha's used shapes that date back to the early 80's.

So even as a sound design tool (synth) it's not a lot of joy, and is quite a lot more limited than its rivals.

Speaking of which... the MODX's sweet point is its combination of 8 sounds under keyboard control, quite large polyphony, FM-X (which is an acquired taste, and very difficult to get the best out of) and Motion Sequencers with and without the SuperKnob. The drum patterns (and arps) are VERY dated. You can't fully/properly make your own, as the onboard means of making them is quite hobbled compared to the tools Yamaha have.

I'm not in need of much in the way of drums, and yet constantly find their drum patterns/arps to be a bit short on range.

Everyone bangs on about how great the arps and drums are. But note that you'll never see demonstrative proof of this. Only read about it.

Similarly, you'll never find videos of fluent usage of the systems within the MODX, because it's a very disjointed thing to use, even when you know it very well - which is all rote learning because nothing about it is discoverable and intuitive.

I wish I could recommend something else, but there's limitations in this price point, and I don't know what you're after, nor what genre you're mostly focusing on. And that last part, genre, is probably going to be the next big determinant of what you're after.

My daughter, for example, makes pop songs, mostly piano based, with strings and horns and guitars. For her, the MODX and a DAW is perfect, as it's like a plugin with a keyboard, and she's not using the patterns or arps, and barely using the drums. I make Motion "sweeps" for her, to give some progression to some of the parts.

For this purpose, I think the MODX is good, if you've got someone like me to help deeper learn and tool this thing into line.

If you can put up with a "DAW" like experience, perhaps consider an Akai MPC with a USB keyboard controller for your pianos, as you'll then have truly unlimited creativity at close to the price of the MODX.

[quotePost id=116316]

.....

A good arranger is generally going to be less expensive than a good synthesizer.

[/quotePost]

Everything Bill said, except this. Good arrangers cost much more than good synths.

Ok arrangers even cost a little more than Ok synths.

But the biggest issue, I think, is probably what originally drew you to the MODX, that you need lots of timbres (many different sounds at once).

This kind of synth, that can play 8+ different sounds at the same time, is almost always compromised or expensive.

The Montage is both compromised and expensive. The MODX solved the expensive part of that formula, and added a few more compromises.

Neither of them are good at "band in a box" despite their big polyphony and ability to play 8 (or 16 with tricks) sounds, and Yamaha's constant promotion of the drum and arp patterns. It takes an enormous amount of work to build Performances out of Parts with Motion and Arps such that it's song-like. It can be done. But it's tiresome, even when you know how to do it. Foreboding, even, and takes thousands of irritating interactions with a recalcitrant screen and horribly back-and-forth UI system that often seems to throw deliberate hurdles and gotchas at you.

Again, I'm sorry. I don't know what else to suggest.

If you need a sounding board, this might be a good place to start expressing some of your requirements and genre interests, as Bill is VERY smart AND wise, Antony extremely keen to help, Darryl is good fun and Dragos has a legendary sense of humour, whilst Jason knows the Montage/MODX like few others.

AnotherScott has a LOT of experience with a LOT of synths.

Thank you Andrew, Bill, Jason, Antony, and anyone else I missed. It sounds like all you guys are regulars here and you certainly are all a very helpful resource for people in the Yamaha community and I hope the forum members appreciate it.

I'm in my 50's now, most of my tech expertise was using creative graphic design software, so I typically shy away from super technical things. I am now retired and just getting back into keyboards after years of not touching them. After a year of research I thought I knew what I wanted. I had a very good understanding of what a Clavinova CVP($$$$)/P515 offers vs. a Genos($$$$)/SX900 vs. MODX/Montage. I think these are Yamaha's top offerings. I mainly read sheet music and had piano training, however I always loved electronic keyboards more so than acoustic pianos. I have had various consumer level arranger type of keyboards, low end digital pianos, DX7II etc. I play a variety of genres, more short pieces than overly long pieces. One of the things I lacked back then was a keyboard that had super quality sampled sounds. It's 2022 now so I thought the MODX would fit that need for me best. I was satisfied with the MODX sound quality in general. Then a few Soundmondo downloads showed me some cool Performances (still have not found anything like these in the presets) that did indeed sound like an arranger, and this capability would have been an added bonus to the MODX. I spent part of the last week trying to understand how easy it would be to alter, refine and create my own patterns like this. Turns out, not so easy! That coupled with some frustrating interface issues, I decided today that I just cannot keep an instrument, (even with it's nice sound) that I know in my heart will be a big struggle to use in the months to come.

Do I specifically need an arranger? Not sure exactly. It's not like there's a lot of other categories to choose from beyond digital pianos, arrangers, and synths. But I do know based on all the product offerings out there that the SX900 has good quality sounds, an easier interface to learn, and I can use its arranger styles when I want to. I know a digital piano cannot do this, nor can the MODX do arranger patterns very efficiently, as Andrew spoke of.

As far as suggestions for Yamaha, based on my research this past year and my own bias, there appears to be a need for an SX900 type of arranger instrument that has 76 keys, with a top quality grand piano sound, perhaps some added synth features, priced around $2,700 or so. Maybe this confuses the synth and arranger categories too much for Yamaha. But they would sure sell a lot of them 🙂

Rich

Hey Rich,

I'm from a somewhat similar background. And of a similar age. With huge experience in 3ds Max and all its plugins, and rivals like Maya, XSI, Lightwave, MODO and all the video editors and compositors etc.

Perhaps the first issue to look into is your seemingly loyal approach to Yamaha. Of the major synth makers, this is the least inclined (IMNSHO) to consider its users, in all its products in terms of workflow. There's legacy reasons for this, and much of that will be distasteful to think about, especially in the modern world, where we're encouraged to be less critical...

Across all makers, part of the marketing of keyboards seems to be about misnomers and checklists determined to sway the newb to buy up in the belief that the maker's rep and brand have long been thinking about how to help players write songs.

A bigger truth might be that that device does not yet exist, certainly not with a keyboard attached.

Akai's MPC range comes as close as I've experienced, but is really a highly focused and optimised DAW experience (much better than using one on a PC), with streamlined UI and purpose built navigation, in a standalone computer.

Its sounds, due to its nature, can be as good as anything out there, because it can use most audio plugins and is a brilliant sampler, too, and its song creation stuff is the best, in my opinion.

The MPC way helps, and was designed to be helpful. That's its remit, and they aim at it with all they've got.

Having something like this kind of wonderful device frees you up to consider a keyboard on the merits of its keys, which is one area where the MODX is heavily compromised.

If you're in the USA, an MPC One and HydraSynth Deluxe (best keyboard action in the world, at the moment) is exactly at your budget.

Andrew,

I will check out the MPC One and HydraSynth Deluxe that you mentioned.

I don't really believe in loyalty to a corporation and it's products at all. It's just that in my research something like the SX900 arranger simply comes out on top over the more complicated Korg PA arranger series in terms of ease of use and sound selection. MODX for example won out over Korg Nautilus because I knew that Nautilus simply did not have the choirs I was looking for and was also a lot higher priced. Roland Fantom-O did not sound right to me in store.

Rich

Richard,

I don't disagree with your assessment of the interface. It has niche appeal and certainly could be more accessible.

I also have no reason to dissuade you from rejecting the MODX.

That said, if you would like to see a series of steps to take a Soundmondo Performance and change some Part (or Parts) with alternate sounds then I'd be happy to provide the rundown.

I would just need to have the Soundmondo Performance name or link along with which Part(s) you want to change and what to.

Jason,

Update: As of today my MODX7 is returned and an SX900 arranger ordered in it's place, so no need for the Soundmondo patch editing rundown, but thanks for the offer to help and hope I didn't waste people's time on this forum. It's just that synths, as they exist today, are just the wrong instrument for me. An arranger like the SX900 offers me a pretty large list of decent sounds that I can tweak and can use with or without the Style accompaniment.

Rich

No harm, Richard. Glad you're still hammering away.

Bill,

I've never really done this before-how exactly is the OS and Firmware updated for the SX900? Can I download these from the Yamaha website and place on a USB thumb drive? Or is there another connection method I should know about? My SX900 won't be near my iMac but I can move it if necessary.

Speakers: I had bought and returned, along with the MODX, a set of 5 inch JBL's, they were fine, though the Guitar Center salespeople like the Yamaha HS5's for best quality. I will evaluate the sound coming from the SX900's built in speakers and see if I want external monitors later on.

Cables: I was not aware of balanced and unbalanced cables. I kept my set of cables from the JBL's I returned. I do see here that the packaging for my cables does say "unbalanced shielded" so I will look into this for the SX900 should I decide to get monitors for them.

bluetooth: I am in U.S. for bluetooth.

Rich

Right, SX900 has built-in wifi unlike the MODX

Hi Rich,

Joining late here just to add my 2 cents (was following from the beginning since I wanted to do the exact same you are trying to do on the MODX, but didn't get the chance to try anything, so I did not participate)...

You won't be disappointed with the SX900. I have the PSR A5000 which is very similar to the SX900 (I would say 90%+ match of features and quality). Maybe they just took half of the SX900 sounds and replaced them with Oriental Sounds.

Sound quality is superb.
Speakers are good and powerfull (SX900 speakers are even better than A5000 Speakers). I would just not use them for bass heavy rythms. Couple options to turn them off.
Firmware update is straight forward. Everytthing is on the Yamaha Web.
Manuals are straight forward and easy to understand.
Learning the PSR will take you quarter of the time compared to learning the MODX.
It has great styles (Rythms).
Great sounds. S.Art voices are WOW!
Best part is that is there are tons of Expansions (by Yamaha) 100% free to download and install on your PSR SX. Great additions to the Styles & Sounds Library.

Biggest thing you will miss in the PSR (or any arranger) compared to the MODX (or any synthesizer) is obviously Sound Editing and Sound Design! Options and features are very limited and basic (compared to the MODX) but of course great for an arranger. PSR Series relies on making your own sounds using the Yamaha Expansion Manager, but of course you can still do basic edits within the keyboard itself.

Update: Making your own Rythms and/or Drumkits is very easy, you can do it right on the Keyboard and use a DAW to do it or some 3rd party software. I added this update because I understood that's the main reason that made you give up on the MODX.

Cheers

Bassam,

Thanks for your comments. I have seen the A5000 on the Yamaha site and did suspect that it was for a market different than the U.S. but was not quite certain about that. I am excited about receiving my SX900 this week. I still expect diving into it will be a challenge for me, but a challenge that I know I can handle. The interface will be a breath of fresh air compared to the MODX and my MODX experience has solidified my need for accessing ready-made sounds and styles as opposed to trying to build my own on a synth. Eventually I hope to create my own Styles on the SX900. This YTube video is one of the longest tutorials I've seen for the SX900 and I can tell right away the whole approach and navigation structure is something I can handle much better: https://youtu.be/u8asJgitc3c

It's important to note here that I don't necessarily fault Yamaha for designing the MODX interface the way they did. I don't consider myself loyal to Yamaha or any brand. However I have owned many Yamaha keyboards over the years probably because they do offer, in my opinion, the most variety of keyboards and price options for all different levels of needs. No keyboard will ever be the perfect instrument. Many I am sure feel the MODX meets their needs. But one thing I now know for sure is that it takes a certain mind, ability, skillset and motivation to master that kind of interface and sound construction.

Being someone who is very technically oriented, I spent the last six years learning the ins and outs of the Montage, but eventually decided that I was spending too much time on tech and not enough time doing music. I ended up as frustrated as you by how difficult it could be to set up a Performance for a particular song I had in mind.

So I bought myself an SX 900 in mid-January and immediately fell so much in love with the arranger world that after two weeks I returned the SX 900 and bought a Genos instead.

I’m still climbing the learning curve, but that’s because I am interested in understanding all of the technical ins and outs of my new Genos; it’s not necessary. It’s so much quicker and easier to find a Style and start playing a song on an arranger.

If you aren’t familiar with https://psrtutorial.com, you should get onto it and look around. I got a ton of valuable help from its very nice collection of knowledgeable folks. If you ask a question there, it might even be me who responds.