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question about preset part names

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Hello,
I am back on this forum. I had a MODX7 earlier this Spring and was a bit frustrated that it was hard to use for me. So I returned it and opted for the SX900. However I decided an arranger board was not really for me. So I went back to a MODX7 (+ version this time) after doing a lot of research, article & manual reading and YTube tutorials to really try to understand the interface, and it has helped a lot. I would say at this point I am at the advanced beginner level and not super technically oriented as many here seem to be. So once in a while I am going to post some things I am stumped about. Below is my question:

If you look at a multi-part preset performance, near the top of the part column, at the right of the “Type” and “Name” buttons, the title of the part is usually the name of a preset Performance when the “Name” option is highlighted. So it would say “Strings & Brass” for example. If you click on “Category” while this name is selected it takes you right to “Strings & Brass” in the Category page. Yet some parts are not named like this, rather it just says “STRINGS” in all caps. When you click on “Category” when “STRINGS” is selected it doesn’t take you to a specific sound. Is this a part that Yamaha built but did not name and put it in the preset performance list? I hope this question is clear.

Rich

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 12:17 am
Jason
Posts: 8259
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Before the instrument existed there was a team of content providers who programmed the presets. Looking at videos you'll see various artists endorsed or employed by Yamaha mention having programmed this or that preset Performance. The instrument allows for arbitrarily assigning the "Name" and Category for each Part. You could take any Preset you want, change these (without changing the programming of the sound) and save as a User Performance to see this range of flexibility.

When taking all of these presets from different programmers they may or may not have provided their own "Names" for each Part. If they did - then once all of the presets were collected Yamaha would see that the formatting (capitalization), spelling (abbreviations), etc. would be different for all of these Performances. And maybe not even consistent between each content provider's content.

Therefore, as a "final step" there was some kind of rule-based assignment of these Part Name and Part Category parameters.

I haven't run through all of the Performances or run a script to pull out all of the preset Part Names. However, the standard I see is that Part 1's Name is always the Performance name. Using upper and lower case. Then Parts 2-16 are an upper case basically also category name for "Name".

EDIT (basically the opposite of the original - it's quoted so the original is in a following message) If the "Name" of any Part matches a Performance then this Performance will isn't necessarily selected when you press "Category Search". (See later message) ...

Also, if you add your own Part to an empty slot for a User Performance then the new Part will automatically populate with the Performance name you borrowed the Part from. Keep in mind this is a difference process of creating a Performance (you're creating a user one) than the one used for the Preset Performances. At any rate - sticking with the defaults then now your personal User content will have a "paper trail" back to the original Performance.

But ... you can also manually edit these after the fact. So you can force the "Name" as a label matching some Preset name that doesn't match at all where it came from. Therefore, there is no real enforcement of keeping this paper-trail back to the original Performance intact.

BTW: congrats on your MODX+. It seems serendipitous that frustration gave you a second crack and lucky that a new keyboard was available. Glad to have a second opportunity to help.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 1:19 am
Jason
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When you edit the name it will no longer find a specific Performance (if the name doesn't match).

[STORE] your "CFX Moody" edit. Then navigate away and recall the saved Performance that has Part 2-16 (one of those) as your edited "CFX Moody". Notice Category Search doesn't bring up any particular Performance. This might be because it doesn't match. "CFX Moody" != "CFX Moody " (space padded, 11 spaces). I think the internal names might be space padded. The interface doesn't allow for you to add spaces at the end (it trims them) - so I think this is what's going on.

You can "prove" this (I haven't done it yet) by adding say Part 2 as CFX Stage then do a bulk dump of this Performance. At this point, Part 2 should Category Search to a specific place.

Then edit the name of Part 2 and just so you can be sure - change the name to "a" (something different) then change it back to "CFX Stage". Do a bulk dump of this Performance.

Bulk dumps can be handled by MODX(+)/Montage Connect.

Compare the two X[7,8]B files generated and look for the "CFX Stage" portion being different.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 3:07 am
Jason
Posts: 8259
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... BTW - I haven't run through the traps but it looks like names are automatically space padded.

F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 00 43 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 01 46 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 02 58 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 03 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 04 4D F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 05 6F F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 06 6F F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 07 64 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 08 79 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 09 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0A 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0B 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0C 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0D 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0E 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 0F 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 10 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 11 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 12 20 F7
F0 43 10 7F 1C 02 31 01 13 20 F7

... I haven't yet run through all the traps.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 3:49 am
Antony
Posts: 745
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This is from memory, but I will try to help you help yourself.

In each Part Edit you will find in General Tab

1) Main Category
2) Sub Category
3) Name

1&2 are drop down lists that are organised the same as Category Search Main and Subs.

You can choose whatever you want here, but the idea is you choose something relevant and applicable to that Part.

The Name ((3)) you can call whatever you want e.g. Intro Strings, Verse3 Brass, Chorus Lead etc.

(3) is the Name in Home View
(1) is the Type in Home View

It is completely arbitrary. You can choose/Name whatever you want, but wisdom suggests you choose appropriately for your own benefit.

The Main Cat and Sub Cat for PART1 ONLY dictates which Main and Sub Categories the Performance appears in when Filtering in Category Search.

So... make Part 1, the "Main Theme" or "Core Type" of your Performance, or at least remember to index Part 1 appropriately.

Bad example - You make Part 1 "Drums"... it's a basic Kick/Snare 4/4 used as a Metronome.

Part 2 is the Star of the Show... it's a Piano Part you spent 20 hours creating.

YSensibly, you Make Part 1 Main Cat "Drums/Perc", Sub Cat "Ethnic".

You Name the Performance "Richard's Piano".

But now, when you do a filtered Cat Search on "Piano", your Performance "Richards Piano" is not there. That's because it is indexed as Main "Drums/Perc", Sub "Ethnic".

This "Knowledge" is scattered across Owners, Reference and DataList Manuals.

I recommend you experiment, start with an INIT, and focus on Part Main/Sub/Name vs Performance Name, until you get your head around it. ????

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 4:07 am
Jason
Posts: 8259
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What's happening with category search is due to caching not the Part name.

When you category search to find a "Performance" (Part) to add to your Performance, the last selection is cached up for that Part. You notice that even though say Category Search on Part 2 goes to "CFX Stage" after you've added CFX stage to Part 2 -- if you [STORE] this Performance then load some other Performance and load the Part2="CFX Stage" Performance you stored then clicking on Part 2's name and pressing Category Search no longer pulls up anything.

The original guidance is that these are arbitrary and have been set in the factory by some rules. It's not a system to associate Parts with their origin. Plus the origin of a preset Part could be anything (original content, borrowed from something else, etc).

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 5:55 am
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Jason:
One of your posts above makes sense to me. I figured these were programmed by various people and thus explains why they appear as general category names in all caps as some sort of attempt to provide consistency. I guess I was looking for explanations for this and you guys gave me some. Having had the SX900 for 5 months actually helped steer me back to the MODX(+), which has much better sound control. I happen to prefer the MODX arp and rhythm pattern accompaniment which sound more natural and less overdramatized than arranger keyboard styles. I've collected several cool ones on Soundmondo and isolated several preset patterns which do what I need.

Bill, Antony:
I want to read through your comments a bit more as it's late here now. As I did this past spring I save all of your comments.

Regarding Inits, it comes in with a default piano sound. I suppose there is no way to bring in an empty one?

Rich

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 5:59 am
Antony
Posts: 745
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You get 3 types of INIT Performance

AWM2
FM-X
Drum

AWM2 has 1 Element Active in Part 1 - Stretch Piano.

You can either:-

1) replace the Part (click on Part, do Part Category Search)

2) Replace the Stretch Piano Element and build from ground up... this is the general idea with INIT Patches.

Regards earlier post, as an exercise, suggest you ignore sounds and just build a dummy Performance to familiarise with Categories/Types/Names as well as the Category Search and "Filing System".

Start with AWM2 INIT, Store and Rename as "Richard Test V1".

Add some random Parts (HOME Screen "+" soft-button).

For each Part, name them Tom, Dick, Harry and Bob.

Change the Main and Sub Categories for each Part as something unusual...

Part 1 - Sound FX, Jazz/World
Part 2 - Chromatic Perc, Synth Bell
Part 3 - Ethnic, Blown
Part 4 - you choose.

IIRC Your Performance "Richard Test V1" will be listed as a Sound FX, Jazz/World (With Main and Sub filters in use). This the Main/Sub of Part 1.

You can change the Part 1 Main/Sub to something else - say Musical FX, Moving, and Store as "Richard Test V2".

You now have 2 Performances
Richard Test V1 - Sound FX, Jazz/World.
Richard Test V2 - Musical FX, Moving.

You will notice in the HOME Screen that Parts 1 - 4 have names

Tom
Dick
Harry
Bob

Instead of Tom etc, you could use more meaningful names, for example:-

String Pad
Brass Lead
FM Bass
Hi Hat

This helps you remember which Part is doing what.

If you click on the "Type" view, in respect to above, you may choose Main Categories:-

Strings
Brass
SynLd
Drum/Perc

Hope that helps.

Congrats on the MODX+... I think you made the right choice. Just be prepared for the learning curve, which is worth the time, and rewards you with fantastic sounds and incredible "can do" power.

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 7:38 am
Antony
Posts: 745
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By the way of another example, I created a Performance, and to save on "Part Slots" I had different types of Elements in a single Part...

I had Synth Strings, at various Octaves to create a String Pad

I had an "B3 Organ" sub/Bass tuned to lower Octave.

I had "Musical FX"... Windchimes, tuned to a Gm chord, that played randomly.

What Main and Sub Category did I choose for that Part??

I can only choose one.

I settled on Strings, Synth... since 4 elements were Strings, vs 1 Organ, 3 Windchimes.

But I named the Part "Intro Pad".

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 8:01 am
Jason
Posts: 8259
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"Init Normal (AWM2)" sets you up with a single Part (Part 1) with a piano sound that has no velocity sensitivity. If you want velocity sensitivity then you need to learn where to find this parameter. That said, when constructing new content it may be easier to begin with combining Preset material (that's not of the "Init" category) to build combinations of fully pre-programmed sounds (synths, basses, organs, pianos, strings, etc). Lean on filtering by single-part Performances so you combine single Part sounds which is easier to deal with.

If you want to "ground up" a sound - the "Init" Performances are OK.

Current Yamaha Synthesizers: Montage Classic 7, Motif XF6, S90XS, MO6, EX5R

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 5:27 pm
Posts: 820
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[quotePost id=118359]Regarding Inits, it comes in with a default piano sound. I suppose there is no way to bring in an empty one?[/quotePost]
I think defaulting to an empty one (i.e. it would make no sound at all until you assigned a waveform) would have been more problematic for lots of people. But architecturally, I suspect there is simply no mechanism by which the board's state could have no waveform assigned.

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 7:59 pm
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Thank you all!

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 9:46 pm
Antony
Posts: 745
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@ Richard...

Since we've caught you at the start of your learning curve, here are some of my personal tips to get you started.

1) MODX Heirarchy

Familiarise yourself with the Synth's architecture, know where to locate each segment of the Synth, and how to recognise and navigate between them effectively.

All the screens look very similar, and often Parameters have the same names but affect entirely different, unrelated aspects. Sometimes, they are related or "linked" to other segments of the architecture. It is easy to get lost.

Performance
Top of the Pile is the "Performance". This is listed as "Common/Audio" in the Edit screens. This governs the composite of all the "Parts" as an assembled group. For example, you will find System Effects and Master Effects at this level, these Effects apply to all Parts.

Parts
These sit under the Performance. There are 16 possible Parts, but only the first 8 (Parts 1 -8) can be controlled effectively by the MODX Hardware. Parts 9-16 must be controlled by external MIDI Controllers e.g. Keyboard Controller, DAW etc. I recommend limiting yourself to the first 8 Parts to start with.

There are 3 different types of "Part":-

1) AWM2, Sample based Synth Engine.
2) FM-X, FM based Synth Engine.
3) Drum, Sample based "Drum Machine". I use this term loosely. It is based on the AWM2 Engine, but is constructed differently to suit Drums.

Parts are referred to by their Part Number, Part 1, Part 2 etc regardless of which type they are.

Editing a Part will affect only that Part. Again screens and parameter names look very similar, but are governing different things. You need to "know where you are" when editing, so bear this in mind. The Top Left of the Screen in Plain Text will be your indicator e.g. "Part 3 - Common Edit"

For AWM2 and FM-X Parts, the "Common" area sits above Elements (AWM2) and Operators (FM-X). It dictates the behaviour and functions of the Part as a Whole. This is NOT the same as Performance "Common/Audio". The "Part Common" area, for example, governs the "Insert Effects" for the Part.

AWM2 Normal Part
Sitting below the "Common" are 8 Elements. Any or All Elements may be active. Each Element is a "Mini Synth" with a Sample acting as a Single Oscillator. Each Element has its own LFO, Pitch, Amp & Filter Envelopes, as well as an Individual Selection of Filters. Each Element has its own Level, Coarse and Fine Tuning.
Each Element is Edited separately from the others. Again, the Plain Text in Top Left gives your location e.g. Edit - Part 3 - Element 5.

FM-X Normal Part
Sitting below "Part Common" are 8 Operators. All Operators are "ON" by default, but their contribution can be nulled by setting their Level to Zero.

FM-X Requires some learning and understanding of FM Synthesis Techniques. It's too much to cover here. I highly recommend "Manny's FM Tutorials" which can be found on this site.

Like Elements, each Operator is edited individually, separate from the others.

Drum Part
I would recommend approaching these last, and refer you to the Reference Manual. They differ significantly from the AWM2 and FM-X "Normal Parts". In the meantime, familiarise yourself with the "Rhythm Pattern" hard-button (found to the bottom left of the Display), and the on screen functions it summons. This will give you a "Play Along to a Beat" tool.

2) MODX "Control Assign" Heirarchy.

This, in effect, is the MODX's "MOD and AUTOMATION MATRIX". And it is massive.

It governs the Functions and Use of Assign Control Knobs, Super Knob and Motion Sequencers, as well as things like Mod Wheel, Pitch Bend, Assign Function Buttons, external Pedals etc.

Here, it would be impossible to explain it all, I can only tell you it is very important and will affect nearly everything you do with the MODX. I recommend you start reading about and learning this as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, there is no "Single Section" of the Manuals that focuses on this subject. Instead, you will find knowledge scattered through the "Edit Sections" for each of "Common/Audio", "AWM2 Normal", "FM-X Normal" and "AWM2 Drum". These are in the Reference Manual. I recommend you start there and follow in text references to other Manuals and/or Sections.

 
Posted : 11/09/2022 11:15 pm
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[quotePost id=118374]@ Richard...

Since we've caught you at the start of your learning curve, here are some of my personal tips to get you started.
[/quotePost]

Antony,
Thanks for this info. Some of those basics I know, as I spent about 2 months reading up before the MODX+ became available for purchase. But nothing replaces actual hands-on experience. Compared to this past Spring, I can now get around OK at a basic level. I can mix sounds, change pitch, velocity and keyboard range, and understand the bassic difference between Edit menus on the Performance level vs. the Part level vs. the Element level, which is obviously really important. But it remains to be seen how deep I will go into sound editing parameters and if I get involved in motion sequencing at all, but yes, I will read up on the Control Assign funtions.

One of my interests is the arp & rhythm patterns and the ample choices available for creating left hand "accomaniment" and how layering and splitting of additional pad voices etc. can achieve a nice effect to go with these patterns. I do understand what the hard rhythm pattern button is doing and understand that it actually creates a Drum Part and accesses drums kits and arp patterns to play those kits. But it might be best for me to create Drum Parts starting from the Performance screen so as not to confuse things. I do feel it's important for what I am doing to also have a good bass pattern in my accompaniments. I will have questions on building this type of thing later on, as I am a bit overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices and wonder how long it will take me to find the right combinations of drum kits, drum patterns, support arp bass patterns etc. so it all comes together nicely. But I definitely do not want an arranger keyboard anymore.

Anyway, the MODX has been worth it alone for its very good piano sounds among others, as well as some cool ambient sound combinations I have customized myself. Plus I grabbed some really nice "arranger" type performances from Peter Van Bruggen & Peter X. Kunz on Soundmondo. I would like more of this type of programming but not finding any other ones on Soundmondo so far. Soundmondo has some gems, but it is far from the "social sharing" site Yamaha bills it as. It's time for them to improve this platform, but that is a topic for another post later on.

Rich

 
Posted : 12/09/2022 6:26 am
Antony
Posts: 745
Prominent Member
 

@Richard...

The recommendation for learning Control Assigns was not to build fantastic EDM, it is so you can debug Performances that you build from borrowed "Factory Parts" that you inevitably will. I did. Everybody did.

Its a very common topic here.

The other one is "MIDI doesn't work".

I reiterate what I said earlier. It's fundamental to operating the Synth "Standalone".

If you have been a Yamaha Synth loyalist for decades, the Manuals will make sense (apparently). If you haven't, the Manuals tend to assume "you should already know this". I haven't. I didn't.

MODX is a new, inexpensive gateway drug into the world of Yamaha. Call me a victim, it's highly addictive. 😉

 
Posted : 12/09/2022 9:05 am
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