“Non SSS” Performances seem to work fine. Are you using MIDI channel 16 to recall these too?

Is your keyboard in Multi Channel, Single, or Hybrid mode?

Are you using Zone control (Part) in any of the Performances?

Bill.
the two together are working as they should as long as the performance on the MODX isn't a SSS one. if I happen to call up a SSS performance, either using the Fantom (it calls them up fine), or manually selecting a SSS performance, then the ability to call up a different performance using the Fantom stops working. The only way to get this working again is to manually select a non SSS performance.
Adding parts to the SSS performances of course means they are not SSS anymore, and so work fine. This is my work around.

I used the phrase 'works fine' to try and get around being told I have to check MSB/LSB. I wanted show that the settings on both are set up as they should be. I said I could call up the MODX patches from the Fantom so no idea how that can be confusing. the post needs to new read in context.
Ill leave it there.

Jason. Thanks for the reply.
Im using the MODX in multi mode. Im only using midi channel 16 to do the patch changes. This works perfectly for any Performance, even those marked as SSS. The issue comes when I try and call another Performance up after calling up a SSS one. Then it seems to stop working without me manually selecting a non SSS Performance to re set it.
Im not using Zone, I assume that was for transmission from the MODX, although I did try it on.
If I use midi channel 1, then at works with all Performances, but then I end up with sounds being played as well on the MODX, which I don't want. There are workarounds to shif keyboard range, don't use part on on the Fantom etc, but none are ideal.

This behavior is not about SSS vs non-SSS. The fundamental rule here is that MODX has to have a Part that exists on a given MIDI receive channel or else the MIDI messages will be ignored.

You're using MIDI CH 16 as your channel to transmit (from Fantom) the MSB/LSB/PC information to change Performances. Any Performance that does not have a Part in 16 will not respond. Lets say you chose MIDI channel 4 instead to transmit MSB/LSB/PC from the Fantom. You would find that single Part Performances on MODX do not respond to these program changes because Part 4 (MIDI Ch 4 receive channel) does not exist and therefore any MIDI is ignored. And, in this case, this is an SSS Performance that is not responding and the fix would be to either change the MIDI transmit channel from Fantom to a channel (Part) that exists on MODX -or- to add, in this example, Part 4 so MODX will not ignore the MIDI messages. And - in both cases (non working and working) the Performance supports SSS. Again, the behavior you're encountering has nothing to do with SSS. It has to do with if MODX has a Part that exists or not.

And, therefore, the convention strongly suggested is to use MIDI Channel 1 to transmit MSB/LSB/PC. All Performances MUST have a Part 1 (you cannot get rid of it) - so you know targeting MIDI Channel 1 will be good for all Performances since the "problem" occurs when there is no Part that exists on a given MIDI channel.

What you want is to have Fantom change the Performance but not play notes. That's fine - the way to handle this is to follow Ed Diaz's suggestion here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujOMF2BA92g&t=4525s

He has a Jupiter-XM as his slaved keyboard but it works the same for any keyboard. He says "triggered but not played" and what he means here really is that the MSB/LSB/PC is sent and changes the "patch" on the slave keyboard but Fantom keys do not play notes. So you would change your Fantom-side keyboard range such that none of the notes in front of you are within the range.

That's how it gets done.

Now Roland has something called a "Control Channel" which is a way to define which MIDI channel the Roland (Fantom, Jupiter, etc) listens to in order to receive MSB/LSB/PC information. Yamaha doesn't have this. So your methodology seems to be borrowed from the "Roland way" whereas your setup needs adjustments to conform with the MODX's features.

You get to the same point - but really MODX will listen on all Parts that exist (and will ignore Parts that do not) which translates to a given MIDI channel since, in multi-channel mode, each Part corresponds to a fixed MIDI receive channel matching the part number.

ill reply later as im just off to work, so haven't read everything yet, but wanted to say none of my performances have (had, they do now) any more that 8 parts, so how are they getting called up using midi channel 16 if I have to have a part there?
All Performances get called up, whether they have 1 part or 8. no issues with that, but if I do call up a part with less than 5 parts I can't call up any other Performances without the above reset first, and then its all working again.

so the issue here isn't about calling them up as such, its about why does it stop working.

Sorry, one more thing i should have mentioned.
Im using Live sets on the MODX, so using the midi data for those (62, 0, 10 etc) rather than calling up the Performances directly.

[quotePost id=118426]
What you want is to have Fantom change the Performance but not play notes. That's fine - the way to handle this is to follow Ed Diaz's suggestion here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujOMF2BA92g&t=4525s

[/quotePost]
Thanks but no, ive already said i dont want to go that route (keyboard shift etc). Im happy with my workaround as it doesnt need any allowneces or me to change anything on the Fantom.
Its all working fine now, with me just adding a part on 16 to cancle out any SSS, but id liek to know why ive had to do this.

Again, its the stop working issue im talking about.

A very qucik example.
I have 4 patches (lets call everything a patch, but its either Scene on Fantom or Performance on MODX) on each synth.
Patches 1-3 on the MODX has 6 parts each. the final one is SSS with just one part
I call up patch 1 on the Fantom, and patch 1 calls up on the MODX. i call up patch 2 on the Fantom, patch 2 gets called up on the MODX. i call 3 and then 4 on the Fantom, patches 3 and 4 get called up in the MODX. so all are getting called up correctly. This is what i mean by working fine.
I then call up patch 1, 2 or 3 on the Fantonm again, patch 4 is still active on the MODX. i call up patch 2 on the Fantom, patch 4 is still active on the MODX. i select patch 1 (or 2,3) on the MODX manualy, and then im back to each one getting called up fine until 4 gets called up again.
I add a part 16 to patch 4 and save it. no keyboard control, its just there to disable SSS.
Now all 4 patches get called up and are in sync without me needing to maually call one up.

I hope that makes sense.

I was using your feedback that channel 16 "sometimes" works to influence my answer. Now that I've tested my own equipment I can say that only Channel 1 (in Multi-Channel MIDI mode) can be used to either change to a given Set List item (using MSB/LSB/PC) or to change the Performance using the multi-Part MSB/LSB/PC messages. When I send the same messages to any other channel than 1, nothing happens.

The suggestion to use keyboard range comes from Roland themselves describing how to interface with external gear. I guess you don't need to do that. Keep doing what you want if it works.

I guess you could put something between that would intercept MSB/LSB/PC messages and force them to channel 1 independent of which channel they come in as. The BOME software should be able to do this. Maybe Camelot Pro (software). Maybe one of the MIDI Solutions hardware gizmos.

No Jason, thats 100% wrong im afriad.
I have Zone 16 on the Fantom set for midi channel 16, also set to external control and i have no issues calling up any of the set list solts (ignoring the issue i do have with SSS).
These are connected directly with just one 5 pin midi cable so adding anything to this is just pontless when my above workaround works 100%.

Maybe there is soeething else ging on that ive missed, but the Fantom is very easy to set up and other than my issue it all works fine with nothing on part 16 on the MODX. in fact i can have parts 1-5 used and it works fine.

Really appreciate your time and effort, but we seem to be seeing very differnt things.

In multi-channel MIDI mode the only reliable and repeatable way to send MSB/LSB/PC information for the purpose of changing Performances is to send those messages to MIDI Channel 1.

In single-channel MIDI mode or hybrid mode you could set the Transmit/Receive channel to Channel 16 then Channel 16 becomes your "control" channel instead of 1. You would still want to modify Zone 16 of the Fantom to restrict the keyboard range so playing keys on the Fantom doesn't also make the MODX play using your Fantom keys. It's my understanding is that you don't want the Fantom keys to trigger the MODX's tone generator.

Im in Multi Midi mode and using midi channel 16 on the Fantom. Im not sure what else I can add.

You've noticed channel 16 is unreliable depending on your Performance configuration. Using channel 1 is the only path in multi-channel mode to ensure success.

I'm going to just take a guess here that, when a Performance only has sounds loaded into Part 1 through 4, and it is therefore operating in SSS mode, then ALL input to channels 5 through 16 is ignored. If my theory is right, then it may not be true that "Using channel 1 is the only path in multi-channel mode to ensure success" -- maybe any of Parts 1 through 4 would consistently work. But 5 through 16 would not work in the SSS mode if that mode effectively considers Parts 5 through 16 to be disabled. Maybe someone can test this and see...

Ensuring success to me means any Performance you throw at the scheme used will be met with success. Only Channel 1 in multi channel mode satisfies this.

You can force modes of operation that allow for other channels to work if you want. I think you have most of this understood.

[quotePost id=118458]Ensuring success to me means any Performance you throw at the scheme used will be met with success. Only Channel 1 in multi channel mode satisfies this. [/quotePost]
So my theory (post #118449) was wrong? Channels 1 through 4 don't all work equally well for this purpose?