Do either "EDM SideChainer" or "EDM Fun 2" generally do the "pumping" you're looking for? If they do, then I can highlight the programming that accomplishes this effect in either which you can transfer to your own content.

EDM SideChainer actually doesn't use sidechain until you add say a drum kit to Part 6 and turn arpeggio master on. Then Part 4's compressor gets modulated by Part 6 (the drum's) level. Strange decision to leave it up to the user to figure this out -- but it is what it is. That said - even without adding anything to Part 6 there is "pumping" which is accomplished by motion sequence and tempo based so changing the tempo will speed up or slow down the "pumping" accordingly.

"EDM Fun 2" I didn't dig into since the "pumping" is less pronounced - but maybe it's (closer to) what you're after.

Far and away the best ways to do this are by hand... that's Motion Sequencer, LFO or MIDI.

Not Sidechaining and not Envelope Follower. Both of these have lag issues that require what you've suggested... at the end... burning parts to make a super distinctive, leading sound that's ahead of what you're playing to spoof the Sidechaining/Follower sensation such that you get an earlier, stronger result.

Instead of fiddling with that... try to find an LFO that you can set to the right rate. This is problematic on the MODX/Montage because there's only one that's beat syncable, and the one that would be the most useful can't be synced to the beat.

Similarly, the Motion Sequencer has issues, and this can be a big one... in that it's not Polyphonic. Once the Motion Sequencer is reset, it's going to impact everything about the Part Parameter it's influencing, not just the current note's qualities.

Which leaves MIDI... and this is the best way to do this... by far. If you can do it in the Pattern Sequencer - all power to you, but this will involve hooking up the Mod Wheel to the parameters you want to "duck" or "pump" and then recording a loop of yourself "pumping" or "ducking" via the Mod Wheel whilst in record mode. This could be a bit of fun.

Alternatively, you could do all the ducking with CC lanes and envelopes in a DAW and then export as a Pattern for the Pattern Sequencer, or then attempt to turn it into an arpeggio if you're prone to bouts of self punishment.

Thank you all so far.

@Jason
OF COURSE ... you may assume, that I use a rhythm-pattern and sidechain to the compressor. Very simple: "just BD". How could I otherwise talk about it!?

This "snap-effect" depends (like many other features) on the used sound. In Sigallas' video (strings) it can slightly be heard. My saws make it terrible. What I didn't try, are different base drums. There are hard and soft ones. Perhaps this also makes a slight difference.

EDM ... I think I remember it: volume-problems ... poor. When did I hear it? Let me recall ... I also have a techno-accentuation (on note, common in 90s/00s), which I wanted to emulate. But I kicked "EDM" in the bin and made it with Motion Sequencer. Volume: full throttle; everything okay. By trial-and-error I got it ... even if the MS-Sequence is not what you hear. "MODX-Special" ... I assume depends on the sound. But by trial it is exactly what I wanted to produce.

"Accentuation" ... another problem. Neither I know a german nor an english word for what I mean: a rhythmical repeated touch of a key. Hope, you know, what I mean. There are also nice presets, which represent some cool accentuations (by arps). Another problem is, that those arps only function in those presets. Until now I didn't succeed to get those arps running with other sounds. My lifetime is limited! And so my nerves. So I also kicked those arps as "MODX-Special" into the bin. Easier and much faster to make user arps by myself. BTW ... I miss a "delete"-function, so to kick out all things I never need 😉 "favorite" is not allways available ... not on every level/screen.

Additional reason not to choose presets: as I told on other sites ... I call it "catch flu". Choosing a preset ... then I would have to check/correct/adjust all possible parameters of the performance. How many are these? 1000? This crap even happens, when you choose the first part ... whoop di whoop ... you have adjustments in every segment of the whole performance 😀 No, thank you. "inital"! I want to control my performances with my ear, not my tired eyes *lol

@Andrew
Hard stuff, your answer 😮
MIDI ... Modwheel ... okayiiii

So far I think, I know the different problems with those mentioned ways. As for me ... none of the MODX features ever functioned right away. Perhaps exception: the motion sequencer. So I learnt it the hard way 😉

When I'm having time, I will study your proposal. Never used it, never heard of it. But very interesting!

DAW ... hmmmm. Of course I could make everything much better and more precisely with DAW and other additions. E.g. in my actual project I caught inspiration regarding "sound-design", "effects" and "controlling" from YT vids with DAW. Surprisingly I accomplished to realize everything on the MODX! *lol ... Except this proper pumping.

But first: I (yet) don't have skills with DAWs. And second: I am a born/educated solo-player and my fun is to play, press buttons, use FC a.s.o. 😉 To put this all together whithout sequencing in the background is my personal challenge 😀

Thank you all again!

@Bill

Thank you for your hints and the missing answer on my third point
.
I wrote that I applied all mentioned ways. So please assume, that I understand those features. I can and do use all mentioned features. The problem is, that they don't function as well as I want it.
I saw DAW-Videos, where my project is perfectly realized. So from the theoretical side, the MIDI side, it is possible! But not (yet) on the MODX.

"Compressor pumping" is a common techno feature. You can hear examples wherever you want.

@Bill

@Bill

Somehow we get off the way here.

We are all trying to help you but you are making it harder than necessary because you won't provide any specifics.

? I did ... in my first post. With many details.

Don't get me wrong. But I indeed thought, it would be clear: "compressor pumping", more accurate "ducking" ... ways ... made it ... problem: no fine results.
Did I ask how to sidechain on compressor? I described the problem with it (snapping noise in between).

"Flavour"? Afaik "sidechain compressor pumping" is allways the same effect, sometimes soft, sometimes harder. I wrote, that I want it "hard".

Examples?

My favorite choice, nice instructional video, and required example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBpB6XmFRY
Pay attention, and you can hear this "snapping noise". As I said: slightly in this video. More explicit with my saw-sound.

Not good for a synthesizer; my opinion. In popular songs and DAW-performances this is perfect. Perhaps some Artists use external compressors. I don't know.
I can/must live with answers like "does not function here". Andrew got me; and seemingly has his experiences with that.

An extreme example of "ducking" (because down tempo) would be Alan Walker - Faded.

Try side chaining LPF24 Filter Cutoff instead of Volume. (EDIT: Using Envelope Followers, so not really side-chaining)

Try it with Filter Keytrack (Cutoff/Key) at both 0% (Not Tracked) or 100% (Fully Tracked).

Here's a shortcut to get an Envelope Follower going.

Select Factory Preset "3 Oscillators Vin"

Go to Performance Home

Press Hard Button Rhythm Pattern (Panel to bottom left of Screen)

Select/Touch Screen "T's EDM Kit"

Play any Piano Key to start Drums.

Click Touch Screen bottom left "Envelope Follower".

Touch "OFF" windows to switch Envelope Follower ON.

In Destination Panel choose Volume or Cutoff (Try both)

Adjust Gain to set "Depth" of Modulation.

Experiment with Curve Type, Polarity, Ratio, Param1 and Param2 for different end results.

Once you are happy with the Sound, click top panel "Exit" button or "Performance Home" button, to go back to the Home screen. You will find that the Drums, Arpeggio and Envelope Follower Control Assigns have all been added to your Performance.

If you want to do all this from scratch, you need to add Envelope Follower set up in the various Control Assign menus.

You can edit Envelope Follower settings (Gain, Attack, Release etc):-

EDIT]  Common/Audio Edit [Audio In]  [Routing]  “Envelope Follower” (EnvFollower AD)

[EDIT]  Common/Audio Edit  [Effect]  [Routing]  “Envelope Follower” (EnvFollower MST)

[EDIT]  Part selection  Element/Operator [Common]  [Effect]  [Routing]  “Envelope Follower” (EnvFollower 1–16)

I can't really comment on the entirety of your feedback, but I think I can help with this one:

"Accentuation" ... another problem. Neither I know a german nor an english word for what I mean: a rhythmical repeated touch of a key. Hope, you know, what I mean. There are also nice presets, which represent some cool accentuations (by arps). Another problem is, that those arps only function in those presets. Until now I didn't succeed to get those arps running with other sounds. My lifetime is limited! And so my nerves. So I also kicked those arps as "MODX-Special" into the bin. Easier and much faster to make user arps by myself. BTW ... I miss a "delete"-function, so to kick out all things I never need 😉 "favorite" is not allways available ... not on every level/screen.

I think these repeated touches of the key are actually just slicing a sound that's held. The arpeggios used are control arpeggios that either turn knobs or modulate a common parameter like expression. What exactly these are depends. If you threw out the preset name of something that does this - I could break it down for you in a way that would transfer to other sounds. Without that, I can still try to help.

First, a more simple example. "Super Slicer". You hear the repeated note start slow and speed up if you keep holding it will speed very fast then come back and slow down to the original slow repeated notes. What's going on here is superknob automation is turned on. When you strike any key superknob is reset to 0 (full counter clockwise) then it slowly turns clockwise. Superknob is tied to an assignable knob (Part 1 Assignable Knob 1 eventually) and this Part 1 Assignable Knob, under control of Super Knob automation, is what is setting the Element LFO speed . The element LFO is applying a square waveform to amplitude so this is what "slices" the sound. The ELFO speed is what speeds up and slows down the slicer.

Now let me get to those control Arps ...

"Cosmic Gate" uses a control ARP that takes a pad sound and slices it up. Turn off the arp and you'll hear that motion sequence isn't doing this (because you won't hear the notes). What's changing the filter over time is an FEG (for each Element). I won't dig into that. You can run through the FEGs and turn the depth down from around 61-64 to 0. Now the sound won't have this "distraction".

Now, we edit Part 1 (Common area) and navigate to "Arpeggio" -> "Common". The Key Mode is "Direct". This would be an important setting when using control arps. Control arpeggios do not control notes. This arpeggio is not striking a note multiple times. The "default" arpeggio for "Cosmic Gate" is arpeggio #1 which is "GateM15". If we look up "GateM15" in the data list we see that it modulates CC#11 (expression).

If I wanted to transfer this to say "Init Normal (AWM2)" - just a raw piano-ish initialization Performance - then I would:

1) [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) - get to home screen
2) [CATEGORY SEARCH] - hit the button
3) Select "Init" category, then select "Init Normal (AWM2)"
4) Touch Part 1, choose "Edit"
5) Navigate to menu "Arpeggio" -> "Individual"
6) Touch Arpeggio #1 name (now "off") and select "Category Search"
7) Upper-right, click the search box and type in "GateM15"
8) Touch the "GateM15" arpeggio that's listed now then press the [ENTER] button
9) Navigate to menu "Arpeggio" -> "Common"
10) Change "Key Mode" from "Sort" and set this to "Direct". Direct is needed for control arps.
11) Turn on "Arp Part" and "Arp Master" which are buttons at the top-leftish of the screen.

Now you've transferred this GateM15 to a different sound. There are other Gate variations.

If the tempo isn't quite right - you can speed things up on this same screen by touching "Unit" which is set to 100% and change it to 50% or 66% (50% as fastest, 66% a little slower but faster than 100%). Or you could adjust the tempo. Or both.

Mostly what you're dealing with when the arpeggios are slicing up the sound is a control arpeggio. Following these steps can get any sound to work with control arps.

Couple of general tips:

you can't have any tail effects on a sound you want to hard duck. that means no reverb, preferably no delay and no smeary trailing chorusing. These will all smudge the ducking, some so much that you can barely hear the ducking.

This is probably why you're trying to do the ducking with volume... rather than the... mostly... superior technique of ducking with the cutoff of a filter.

HOWEVER... if you're going to use a filter to duck, it must be a strong filter, as Antony points out... one with a big drop off AND it must be after all effects... so you can't use the Performance level Reverb and Variation for smeary effects... and get this radical ducking that you want.

Try tying the filter Cutoff frequency to the ModWheel on a clean, new Part that's got that SuperSaw sound you're looking for. and then setting the ModWheel to radically be able to drop that cutoff. And now swivel the ModWheel as fast as you like to get the sound you're looking for.

Then you can record it into a Pattern Sequencer, by playing it in, with the Mod Wheel. I think this is the most fun way to do this.

And you can radically change the curve of the Mod Wheel's influence and change what properties of the sound it's impacting too... so you can, for example, increase the resonance a little right as you do the ducking of the cutoff, and increase the volume a little at this point, and THEN drop all three rapidly (resonance, volume and cutoff), which creates a strongly accentuated ducking with a little lead in anticipatory movement before the ducking. This can sound AWESOME on a fully supersawed EDM sound. Kind of like a little pulse hit then duck. da-oomph!

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is to get your drone or supersaw sound out of the way BEFORE the transient hit of the kick, so it's doing this anticipation that it does for itself, for the kick. This is why it works so well and is so delightful... it predicts the kick. Which is why the sideChaining and envelope follower approaches suck, because they are always trailing/lagging and don't have a look-ahead feature to overcome this latency issue.

"Light BD" was what I am using when doing sidechain compression using "Uni Comp Down" as the compressor. My starting sound is the "Vinalog saw" Performance. Sounds OK to me, similar to youtube videos (not MODX, other gear) I can pull up on the subject of compressor sidechaining.

I used T's EDM kit then changed the note range to B0-B0 so only the bass drum would play by arpeggio and turned on arpeggio master and arp hold for Part 2 (where my added drum kit is). Part 1 (the Saw) I turned off the Part arpeggio.

Part 2, the Bass Drum, I changed the output to "Off" so it would only be used for side-chaining and not heard.

When I edited drum key B0 (Category Search for waveforms) - I could scroll around the various bass drums and listen to how they impacted the overall side-chain sound. This is how I landed on "Light BD". You may have different tastes and something else may work out better for you.

One other thing... use a High Pass Filter...

This pulls out the low frequencies... which are the ones competing with the kick/bass/beat. Not a low pass filter.

Sorry, should have mentioned this earlier. This seems counter intuitive, but it's the best result, every time... as it lets some of the tone of your pulsing saw sound stay in the game, and frees space in the spectrum for your kick/bass/beat to fully come through.

[quotePost id=119520]One other thing... use a High Pass Filter...

This pulls out the low frequencies... which are the ones competing with the kick/bass/beat. Not a low pass filter.

Sorry, should have mentioned this earlier. This seems counter intuitive, but it's the best result, every time... as it lets some of the tone of your pulsing saw sound stay in the game, and frees space in the spectrum for your kick/bass/beat to fully come through.

[/quotePost]

I think using different Filter Types produces different results, it provides different options. It's not necessarily a case of one is better than the other.

In any case, the Envelope Follower can be set up per Part, so you may decide not to use it on a Bass Part for example.

A LPF can/will silence the "Volume" of a Part if the Cutoff is dropped below the Fundamental of the Played Note's, regardless of the Timbre (e.g. String Pad, SuperSaw pad etc).

The Cutoff/Key (Key Tracking) can be of use here.

With 0% (no Key Track) you can set the Envelope Follower Gain to only reduce the LPF Cutoff enough to remove the high end, but leave the Bass frequencies unaffected.

You can also use the Envelope Follower just to knock out rhythmic "Filter Squelches" and the like, it doesn't have to just be used for Ducking/Pumping.

@Antony

Thanks for your addition/instructions. Would have been my next questions:D

Unfortunately I did this the first time. So I will have to serach, find and adjust your suggestion. Nice training 😉

@Jason

Thank you very much.

I understood this "controller arp" thing...since a long time. What was missing, are instructions how to handle it. I will print out your post and eat it later 😉 Only flown over yet.

The next problem with those arps is: they start where they want. In one of my performances I workaround by shortly hitting a key before starting playing. But even this not allways functions. And ... that is a preset performance! Should be adjusted! The arp name is "GateL1".

Synch the start ... as I wrote on other sites. I did one such effect with MS. Also starting synch problems. With MS I solved it by stupidly trying out every possible combination of "synch" and "key on reset". It functions ONLY with "beat"/"1st on". Different "synch", different "key on reset" ... NOPE
Why? I don't know. I have other Lanes, which "choke", when on "beat". They only start fine if "tempo".
I understand those parameters. But for me still a kind of gambling. Fortunately an easy gambling, because there are only a few combinations I have to try out.

"Buzz around" is also an example of, what I mean with "accentuation". Not the MS!

Thank you so far!