@Andrew

Thanks again.

I posted it. One of my newest lessons is to start with a "naked" (effectless) performance. Simply because I first want to create the sounds. So this was not the problem here. Nevertheless thank you, because I got a deeper understanding!

I know Cutoff-Ducking. In this case via EF. I will try it out ... when time has come 😉

@Babba...

your initial reported problem was "Pops & Clicks" and also "lack of Depth". At least, that was my understanding.

The "Rhythm Pattern" method I provided above is quick and easy. Also, in my Tests it didn't suffer any wierd noise issues, and I was able to make it sound "professional" very quickly. There are a lot of options in that small "banner window". It's probably worth trying sooner than later to prevent you being distracted.

Arpeggios are a different subject, and not too difficult to grasp if you stay focused on what you need. In this case, to "play" basic Drum Patterns for the purpose of triggering the Envelope Follower.

"Nevertheless a question to MS: one can trigger it ... on. But I don't know how to toggle between on and off. If there is an extra button for this it would have been a fine idea to give it 2 fuctions. Is this possible?"

The "MS On/Off" button on the left of the Synth's top panel. It's right next to the "ARP On/Off" button.

You also have "Motion Seq Trigger" and "Motion Seq Hold" buttons nearby.

@Bill

Thanks. Much stuff.

I know those parameters ... and the specialty with controller arps. "Running in the background" must be a great thing ... for anyone else; not for me. I am rather able to play staccato/legato ... and do with "1st on" whatever I want. Moessieurs once annoted that to me ... got it ... but no problem for me. Legato with one finger or 3 at chords. No problem for me.

My opinion: I simply don't like those arps! Maybe nice gimmicks for pros. But the stress and the enormous bunch of work they require ... I don't like them. Some are really nice and cool ... therefore I will study Jason's instructions. Perhaps the day will come, I cannot without those arps any more ... not now 😉

Until now I didn't see much magical performances on YT. "Performance" in the sense of "playing a song". And the ones, I saw, are not from Yamaha. They better should make commercials with "normal users" 😀

Of course I fumble around with those parameters. One of me first Problems, that controller arps cannot be held ... hearable. To perform I - myself - me need a free hand as much as possible. No "key/chord hold"-function ... so the second important reason for me against controller arps. Important: I play solo ... the whole arrangement ... on ONE instrument. The MODX is not made for this. But it allways remains a challange for me to find tricks and techniques.

Nevertheless to this synch problem:

My performance is quiet. Start ... nothing ever happened! Press "Live Set", choose it ... ready for go...

- I press and hold the first key ... and the arp plays its "sequence". Let's make it simple... the sequence is 1 2 3 4 5 ... whatever
- Next start. Same game. Press/hold the key ... it starts 3 4 5 1 2

When I shortly kick down the key, it mostly (not allways, 90%) starts its original sequence. Then I let it fade out and start my playing ... fits.

Believe it or not. Maybe there is a special parameter for this. But what did I learn in english-class at school (regarding "comma"): "if you doubt, leave it out" 😀

[quotePost id=119538]"Nevertheless a question to MS: one can trigger it ... on. But I don't know how to toggle between on and off. If there is an extra button for this it would have been a fine idea to give it 2 fuctions. Is this possible?"

The "MS On/Off" button on the left of the Synth's top panel. It's right next to the "ARP On/Off" button.

You also have "Motion Seq Trigger" and "Motion Seq Hold" buttons nearby. [/quotePost]

Okay. Will try this. On the MODX a challenge to press buttons while playing. Have other issues with that (changing scenes) ... will make a seprate post with that.

I will try this.

[quotePost id=119537]@Babba...

your initial reported problem was "Pops & Clicks" and also "lack of Depth". At least, that was my understanding.

The "Rhythm Pattern" method I provided above is quick and easy. Also, in my Tests it didn't suffer any wierd noise issues, and I was able to make it sound "professional" very quickly. There are a lot of options in that small "banner window". It's probably worth trying sooner than later to prevent you being distracted.

Arpeggios are a different subject, and not too difficult to grasp if you stay focused on what you need. In this case, to "play" basic Drum Patterns for the purpose of triggering the Envelope Follower.

[/quotePost]

Let's see. So much interesting information here. I will have to print everything 😉

Item "Modwheel". I am not completely stupid; only on one side of the brain *rofl
I got some "crafting-tricks" in my pocket 😉 Not my first instrument. Some glue a Dice on it for a better handling. One of my tricks: toothpicks as "limiters". That should not be a problem ... if I have the time for it.

[quotePost id=119544]

The "MS On/Off" button on the left of the Synth's top panel. It's right next to the "ARP On/Off" button.

With the caveat that the button will disable ALL sequences - not just the one you want to turn OFF.[/quotePost]

Okay, But for now that is sufficient for me.

It helps me to make things more elegant. If I figure out right, such things belong to the differences between the Montage and the MODX. Knobs for such things.
In my last project I have 3 part-slots with the same sound. One naked, one with an arp, one with this arp and an MS lane. I change with scenes. But it costs slots. One of my favourite styles: progressive techno. Accordingly I need such toggle-things.

I saw someone doing this on the screen during play. My respect! 😉

Sometimes guessing and a haphazard approach works. It's how keyboard playing has been done by the pros for ages. I don't knock this approach at all. However, if you want to understand the difference between Tempo sync and Beat sync - then you can do this with a bit of research.

BM summarizes here: https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/motion-sequence-sync-tempo-vs-beat#reply-111555

The summary is that "beat" sync is aware of where the beat is. If you have a drum arpeggio that does a crash on beat 4 and starts the "1" downbeat with a bass drum -- then you may want your motion sequence to also be aware of its placement within these beats (1-2-3-4, etc assuming 4/4 time). "Beat" will align with the beat. "Tempo" doesn't care where the beat is. When you strike a key to trigger a motion sequence, the sequence will start and will run at the tempo of your music but the start will be placed wherever you place it. Could be offset vs beat 1 by a quarter note triplet or really literally wherever you start it relative to the beat. So Tempo allows for starting right on top of when you trigger and Beat will start on top of the beat displaced if needed from your trigger in case your trigger is "late" or "early" for the next beat.

If you like what "beat" does then you must desire the motion sequence lines itself up with the beat. A sort of quantization.

@Bill

Thanks very much. I didn't reasearch all the scene-edit yet; allthough I use it, because no shift-scene is needed. I hate this saving all the time. I appreciate your tip.

@Jason
Moessieurs once told me about those adjustments. Also this "key on reset". I learnt MS by his fine videos, because I also speak french 😉

As I told ... the MS on panorama only works fine with "tempo". With "beat" it "chokes". Somewhat like "ups, to fast ... now ... okay, I synch" 😉 Only part of a second, but very clearly.
And the MS above mentioned, like an arp effect on note/volume doesn't play the right sequence with "tempo". Means: doesn't start correctly with 1 2 3... instead where it wants. There I need "beat". I also had to adjust "1st on". Moessiers said, that will cause that it starts every time I play a key (staccato). That's right; but otherwise it also doesn't start right. I play legato instead, and everything is fine.

P.S.: I read BM... my favorite quantum physician;) I don't want/can play "+ of 4" ... whatever this will mean. I play the notes on the right time, and I need them this right time. So - as usual - I cannot follow hie explanation. I am seriously wondering, how some people are playing. Latency accounting with left ... okay ... allways was this way. But with the right hand? The melody?
At least I understand this "choke" ... perhaps;)

P.P.S.: Also interesting ... on all synth as far as someone told me. All have a "pan"-knob. This knob is NOT "panorama". It is my first synth, so I was pretty confused, what it does. I would say "balance on stereo channel". And so on other synths (Korg etc.). A bit strange. Fortunately the "pan" on the element level is right.

Beat is going to line up your keypress with the next downbeat. If you press a note on the upbeat and no sequence is running then the system will wait for half of a beat (eighth note) before the sequence starts. The start will always be on the downbeat so this must be your perception of "choking". Beat is asking the sequencer to quantize to the nearest beat so if you trigger not on the beat - there will be some delay before the sequence starts.

Secondly, if you start the sequence - say loop is off and cycle is 1 so it can fairly quickly run through the entire sequence. And set to each-on trigger. It's easiest to visualize using Super Knob automation since you can watch the LEDs. The default behavior without changing the curve (aka pulse) types is that when the sequence starts superknob is set to full counter-clockwise (CCW) then turns clockwise as the sequence runs. So the sequence isn't running and you strike a key - the system will not put superknob to 0 (full CCW) and start the sequence until the downbeat. If you set the tempo to 11 and have a drum running with the arpeggiator (set to hold) then most drum patterns will place a drum hit on all down and up beats. "Real Kit" does this. So if you strike on the upbeat you're going to see a big delay before the sequence starts.

Now, after the sequence starts - right away - before the next upbeat (8th note) strike any key. You will notice that this note is not recognized as a trigger note because the next downbeat will not reset the sequence. The sequence will remain idle. The reason for this is that your 2nd strike is closer to the downbeat that started the sequence vs. the next downbeat. Your 2nd strike is counted as being on the 1st downbeat (but played late) vs an early trigger for the next beat.

Now, again with no sequence running if you strike a note the sequence will start on the next downbeat (after a delay depending on your placement of the trigger note) then wait for the next drum hit which will be an upbeat (for real kit) and then AFTER the upbeat if you strike a key then this will count as a trigger for the next beat and the next downbeat now the sequence will reset again.

Except for a strike right after the sequence starts (before the next upbeat) any other strike at any other time will "line up" your strike as a trigger note for the motion sequencer and reset and then start the sequence on the next downbeat.

@Jason

Okay ... the 10th explanation of what those parameters are 😀 Originally I was told, "beat" is for Audio imput. But okay ... error ... I read BM's words. His will be done! Beat is tempo ... only different ... so it shall be. Sir, yes, Sir 😉

I understand. When synch, how synch ... you forgot some milliseconds internal latencies ... all clear.

BUT ...
1. In these cases I allways press the key on the first "measure" ... very simple ... not earlier, not later, not on the second or any geological age 😉 ... first measure ... boom
2. I got both running perfectly

Then the mystery remains, doesn't it!? Don't you see a "mysterious" behaviour in my MS's? One time "tempo", one time "beat/1st on"?

Doesn't anyone wonder, why I am using BOTH ... "beat" and "tempo" ... and in every case only ONE option is functioning? ... the other option has different defects. Again ... same finger, same hand, same timing, same measure.

Why does "beat" in one MS make it run perfectly? No choke. Why is this not the case in my other lane? Why does my other lane only function with "tempo" and choke if "beat". In fact the choking ones are two ... one on pan, one on cutoff (same performance) ... played seperately, different scenes.

Forget about me, my hand, timing, knowledge ... in both cases the same. Cannot be the cause!!!
THAT is the question. Theory is theory. Fine, yes, okay. In my practice it depends ... on something.

To make it worse ... the second lane only plays 1. the right time and 2. the right order (important) ONLY and ONLY when I also set "key reset" on "1st on"?

Complicated, I know.
- in the first one the choking is the problem ... solution "tempo"
- in the second one the order is the problem ... solution "beat" & "1st on" (and only that!)

Cold research:
1. OBVIOUSLY it does not depend on my fingers playing/timing. "+ 4 things bimm bamm bumm" ... NO! Right hand ... melody ... same finger timing ... good enough, that both function. And got them functioning!
2. And NOT on a running rhythm arp. Both times a rhythm arp is running and standard. BD blablabla.

The arp-style-one (beat) ... I even don't need any rhythm-arp running. I press ... it starts correctly (order). No beat ... no rhythm arp ... nothing but a tone, jumping in my favoured rhythm ... and the right sequence ... and the right start of this sequence. I repeat: WITH or even WITHOUT any beat!

So ONE THING is clear "beat" has nothing to do with beat! 😉 Let's take the Pro's word ... both is tempo. Tempo? Upper right: 140bpm. Makes sense in my case. Only "nomenclature" ... and those fantastic explanations.

Still it is not plausible, that one requires "tempo" and the other "beat". That's not logical. I start it ... and I want it to start:
1. on the first note/measure/right time
2. in the right sequence order ... 1 2 3 ...
... and it does in both cases.

It's complicated ... in the "beat" one I also need "1st on" so to have the right order of the sequence. Otherwise ... it starts in the middle of the sequence. Okay ... I know ... what it does also depends on the assignment-parameters. Let's leave this out; the sequence is correct. I does "ba ba baaa". Other "synch"/"reset" it does "ba baaa ba" or "baaa ba ba". Not right.

So what is remaining as a reason ... at first sight?
1. the lane ... one time 4 (tempo ones), the other 8 segments (beat one)
2. the parameter, which is controlled by the lane ... one time element pan/cutoff (tempo), the other one on volume (beat/1st on)

Those are the only points that differ. Okay ... I could try the exact same rhythm arp ... whatever. I could also pack them into ONE performance. But it remains the same ... it has nothing to do with me/my knowledge. or theory. Practically all this theory does not help me to understand, why one time this way and other time that way. Theory is not the reason ... or only in connection with something different.

I haven't noticed anything mysterious. The function appears to match the design as described. If you want to upload a Performance that "acts up" to Soundmondo then I can be on the same page and match your environment.

I also do not find I would need to use first-on in order to have the sequence reset to the beginning. I'm not finding sequences starting "in the middle". I see repeatable resets to the start. And these resets (using beat sync type) all land on the downbeat. That's why having a reference drum is helpful so you can hear where the beat is. Or you could turn the metronome on which accomplishes the same reference.

No mystery?
Okay. Then let's leave out those normal functioning lanes with tempo.

Then please tell me, why the other lane only operates with beat und 1st on. No mystery -> reason 😉

Soundmondo ... another lesson. Tablet, App, USB... will see

The "Crumbler" Performance's Part 2 uses a Motion Sequence with Beat based sync. It is set to first-on reset. If I set to OFF or each-on then motion sequence still does the right thing I would expect.

When the unit multiply is set to 100%, 16 steps of the sequence is equal to a measure. So at this unit multiply, each step is a 16th note. If "Cycle" is set to 8 then still each of these steps for 100% unit multiply would represent a 16th note. 800% unit multiply, as used in this Performance would mean 8X 16th notes per step. Or 2 beats per step. With the metronome on you can hear this is true. And if you strike a key right after you hear the metronome click then you will not hear the motion sequence reset until the next downbeat.

When loop is ON (as it is here) if you already have the motion sequencer running then it will keep running even after you strike a key until the next downbeat when it will then reset to the start. If you adjust the release and decay2 you can get a long tail after lifting up off the keys and hear the motion sequence keeps running "forever" after you lift off the keys when loop is on. Since MS is running "all the time" with loop on - then if you have a sound that decays when you strike the next note you will transition from silence to hearing motion sequence again (it's always running but you don't hear the influence unless a sound is active) running through its paces and then reset on the next downbeat (click of the metronome).

If reset is off and loop is on then motion sequence is only setup on the first downbeat after I strike the first note. Then motion sequence will run forever and nothing will reset it (unless you turn MS off or switch Performances).

Maybe you can get "Crumbler" to act up by changing the settings and then let me know what you did and I'll reproduce.

I think there's a disconnect between an expectation and understanding of how MS operates. Which is fine as hopefully there will be understanding eventually (both my understanding of your specific issue and your understanding of how the keyboard operates). I do understand you've developed workarounds that essentially have you stay away from the settings not fully mastered. So there's no real pressing need unless your curiosity matches your patience (and both are reasonably high).

@Jason

First and most important now: thank you! Don't get me wrong: thank you.

I fear we are talking past each other. No drama! It's okay.
The only solution would be a video. There I would wildy kick or hold a key ... synchron/asynchron, long, short, first hit ... and showing what happens with every parameter. Usually I do so as a "stress-test". A test if it functions "in all positions".
Unfortunately I don't have the equipment.

Last post to this...

I first tried 2 instructed (MS videos), classical, intuitive ways to create this effect: 1. note by note (for beginners) 2. by ducking (as it is). No success.

Keeping the "ducking" adjustment ... I got it ... simply playing around with the sliders in the lane. Stress-test ... fail in start/synch. "synch" & "reset" by trial and error ... perfect!

MY personal (insane) explanation for this miracle, regarding the lane that came out, regarding the assignment to volume ... and using some mathematical knowledge (permutation):

I seemingly reached to force the machine start with segment 8/8 of the lane. Allways, allways on time, allways synchron, allways perfect functioning. First kick or legato play ... all-ways per-fect.

In this connection I am assuming that the result of "volume-lane" is 0 ("ducking"). Nevertheless a tiny, small, little issue: from the mathimatical point of view the lane is not really correct.

Let's be good 😉