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Using an Assign Knob to control a Part parameter

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Hi

I want to know if I am setting up an Assign Knob to control a Part parameter, correctly.
It seems like I am using too many steps.

First I assign an Assign knob to control a Part parameter in Part > Edit > Mod / Control > Control Assign.
or
I select a Part parameter, press the CONTROL ASSIGN button, and move an Assign knob.

OK so now I can control the Part parameter with an Assign knob, but only if the Part is selected? !

By experimenting I found that the only way to control the Part parameter without having to select the Part is to
go to Performance Home > Edit > Control > Control Assign.
Select the Assign knob I assigned in the previous procedure as the Source
and select the Part number and Assign number that I used in the previous procedure as the Destination (Part 1 Assign 1).

In other words, create the Assign Knob assignment in the Part, then Assign that assignment to the same Assign knob in the Performance.

It seems strange that I have to perform the last step of assigning the Assign knob again in the Performance.
and I couldn't find any videos or documentation dealing with these steps I took, but it works.

Thank You for any insight into this.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 2:59 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

If you use this method (the manual way without using the [CONTROL ASSIGN] button):

First I assign an Assign knob to control a Part parameter in Part > Edit > Mod / Control > Control Assign.

... then you left out some steps.

1) In the Part with the parameter you want to control, Part > Edit > Mod / Control > Control Assign. and assign an assignable knob This is the step you already outlined.
... note that this is incomplete only because there is no assignment of the Super Knob to control this Part level assignable knob.

2) In the Common/Audio section, (you can get there by first pressing [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) then touching the Performance name at the top of the screen, then select Edit). The full path is Common > Edit > Control > Control Assign. Here assign a Part #'s Assignable knob (destination) to a Common Assignable Knob (source).

3) Setup the Super Knob settings which relate to the control of the Common/Audio Assignable Knob you setup in step 2. You get here by first pressing [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) then select (far left) the "Motion Control" tab. The full path is Motion Control > Super Knob. This screen shows the 8 Common/Audio Assignable Knobs. Make sure the Common/Audio Assignable Knob you selected in step 2 has the Super Knob Link button ON (green). Also there are two rows of numbers labeled "1" and "2" . "1" is on top and "2" on the bottom. These adjust both the range and the polarity of each knob. If the top number is smaller than the bottom number then the Common/Audio Assignable Knob will turn in the same direction as Super Knob. This is positive polarity. If the top number is bigger than the bottom number then the Common/Audio Assignable Knob will turn in the opposite direction as Super Knob. This is negative polarity.

Once you check/define all 3 of these areas - your final destination will be completely linked. Using the automated method using the [CONTROL ASSIGN] button greatly reduces the amount of steps although the automatic selection of knobs may not be optimal depending on how you would otherwise manually do this.

I select a parameter, press the CONTROL ASSIGN button, and move an Assign knob.

It's fine to do it this way. Particularly before you become more familiar with the keyboard that would allow the above 3 steps make more sense. I personally usually use this method now and would only use the other harder method if I wanted something very (very) specific when it comes to which knob controls what and/or set one common/audio knob to control multiple Part level knobs. There shouldn't necessarily be a need to do either of these when starting out.

... so what you're doing here is fine.

OK so now I can control the Part parameter with an Assign knob, but only if the Part is selected? !

The problem you're facing is probably you used the harder method which was incomplete and there is no connection of the Part-level assignable knob (which you did assign) to a Common/Audio Assignable Knob. And also even if that is in place, you would need to check that the Super Knob has the link to the Common/Audio Assignable Knob turned on. Chances are - it will be. It's rare that the link is turned off.

By the way - nice digging and exploring. You found all the gold just didn't know how to assess that you had.

The harder method has more steps - and yes, if you go that route, you need to do at least 2 of the 3 steps (you may get lucky with the Super Knob Link which would need to be ON).

If you use [CONTROL ASSIGN] then everything is done for you so it basically removes 2 of 3 steps vs the harder method.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 3:59 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
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... and, just so you know:

When you do not connect a Common/Audio Assignable Knob to a Part level Assignable Knob, you create the situation where the only way to control your destination parameter is by turning the Part level knob.

When you have a Part selected the Knobs are presented as Part level knobs. So when you spin a knob and it was working -- you were spinning the Part-level Assignable Knob.

When you went to any other Part - these knobs will change to that Part #'s set of Assignable Knobs (and not the Part you were editing to modulate a destination parameter).

When you went to [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) - these knobs will change to the Common/Audio Assignable Knobs (and not the Part level Assignable Knobs as you assigned). Therefore, without the connection to the Part-level knob, spinning these knobs will not modulate your destination parameter.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 4:05 pm
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Thank you. Whew this is intense. I need to keep studying each thing you talked about. It will take a while.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 5:11 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
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If you look at the picture inside this post:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/understanding-super-knob-with-cfx-orch-performance

... then this may help visualize what's going on.

When you were having issues and using the incomplete set of steps for the "hard" way - what you did was (referring to the picture) assign a Green (Part) Knob to a destination Parameter. There was no connection setup for the Purple (Common) Knobs so there would be no way for Super Knob to control the Part Assignable Knob (which, in turn, modulates your assigned destination parameter).

What you did, for example, is drew a line between the Green Knob #1 and the wrench as shown (which represents some arbitrary destination parameter). However, there was no connection between the Green and Purple knobs so the (1) (circle one) arrow pointing towards the Green #1 knob is missing. In the picture, the Purple Knob #8 is assigned as the source for Green Knob #1 - your assignment need not be the same but there needs to be something if you are to make a path back to Super Knob. All parameter assignments you want controlled by Super Knob must have a Super Knob linked (link=ON) Common Knob and this Common Knob must be assigned as the destination to the Part-level Knob which is finally set to modulate a destination parameter within the Part.

Super Knob --(Link=ON)--> Common Assignable Knob #X --> Part Y Assignable Knob #Z --> Part Destination Parameter (volume, pitch, etc).

Using [CONTROL ASSIGN] abstracts these and takes care of all of these assignments for you which is good in most cases. That said - it's helpful to know how things are "really" connected so you can best program your synth.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 5:46 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
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BTW:

I am re-reading your original post and realize you were clear about wanting to assign an assignable knob to a Part parameter and didn't mention anything about Super Knob. Therefore, you can leave out the Super Knob connection if you want if you're going to be using Assignable Knobs.

Just realize that when you SELECT a Part - this action will change the "mode" of the 4 Assignable Knobs. When a Part is SELECTED the 4 Assignable Knobs change to the Part Assignable Knobs of that selected Part. No longer are the knobs the Common Assignable Knobs or any other Part's Assignable Knobs. It's important to realize that these Knobs can be in different modes depending on what's selected.

If you want the same knob to always modulate the same Part-level Parameter then you can assign the Common/Audio Assignable Knob (Purple Knob in the picture) number that's the same as the Part Assignable Knob used for your Parameter. Then, at the Common/Audio level, set the Common/Audio Assignable knob as a source to the Part # Assignable Knob # you want. If you assign the same knob number at both levels then the same knob will modulate the desired parameter no matter if you either have Common selected or the one Part you have been editing. If you select any other Part then things break down.

This is where Super Knob can come in. Super Knob, no matter what Part is selected, is always Super Knob. It doesn't change modes. That's part of why Super Knob enters into the conversation. As a possible "always there" knob. The limitation is that you only have one Super Knob. So you cannot have a bunch of Knobs that never change no matter what Part (including no Part) you have selected.

Circling Back ...

If your goal was to assign a Part Assignable Knob (any knob) to a Parameter then your original 1-step (previously labeled as missing steps) is OK. The learning here is that the 4 Assignable Knobs switch modes between Common or only one out of the 16 Part Assignable Knobs. It matters what you have selected.

There's a way to make the Common Assignable Knobs connect to the Part so that if no Part is selected (like when you press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) ) then now there is a Common Assignable Knob that will be tied to the Part Assignable Knob (specific Part). This doesn't cover all cases if you ever select a different Part (not Common, not the desired Part # ). In this case the only knob you have would be Super Knob. And then Super Knob -> (Link=ON) -> Common -> Part -> Destination applies.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 6:01 pm
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[quotePost id=118566]BTW:

I am re-reading your original post and realize you were clear about wanting to assign an assignable knob to a Part parameter and didn't mention anything about Super Knob. Therefore, you can leave out the Super Knob connection if you want if you're going to be using Assignable Knobs.
.[/quotePost]

Thanks to everyone who provided such detailed info !

Yes, Jason. I did not want to involve the Superknob. I am a newbie and don't have enough knowledge of all the programming components and parameters to be able to do alot. I set a simple goal that I could accomplish which was to have the 1st two assign knobs always control particular parameters in one of the parts, without any part selected. I wanted to be able to select a particular Performance, select the scene with the Part I wanted to control and have the 1st two assign knobs control parameters in the Part. So I believe I accomplished that.

I am loving this discussion. It's seems as though the relationship between the Assign knobs, the superKnob, parts being selected or not, Part level assignment and Common Audio assignments, etc are some of the more complex areas of the MODX. This post is a great start to understanding what's possible. Is there any official documentation that goes into these detailed relationships?

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 10:20 pm
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

Great - with this goal, you're not concerned about selecting a Part and having the knobs change modes on you since normally (or always while performing) you will just load the Performance which, by default, selects no Parts (Common is always selected). So you need to be sure that knobs 1 and knob 2 are tied to two Part Level Assignable Knobs (of the Part you want to control) in order to allow for you to reach those knobs while in the default Common knob mode.

You can use [CONTROL ASSIGN] and turn Super Knob which will assign these for you. No telling if the right knobs will be selected at the Common level. If you delete all of the assignments then probably the first time you use Superknob it's going to assign Common Knob 1 and the second time Common Knob 2. Even though you used Superknob as the "source" controller - Super Knob is going to be involved even with the "harder" way because Common knobs are all tied to Super Knob by default. You can undo this (unlink) if you want. As long as you don't touch the Super Knob - it's essentially the same as having Super Knob unlinked. Because you have to move Super Knob to force the linked Common Knobs to move or else they will remain independent (you can move even linked Common Assignable Knobs on their own freely/independently as long as Super Knob doesn't move).

But what you're doing the harder way isn't that bad since it gives you more control. It's a two step process of looking at the Common/Audio level to make that knob-to-knob assignment then look at the Part level to make the Part Knob to parameter assignment.

... if you want to be sure Super Knob doesn't "mess up" your two Common Assignable Knobs - then go into the Super Knob settings explained earlier and unlink Common Knob #1 and #2 from Super Knob. Now when you move Super Knob - even by accident - Common Knobs 1&2 do not move.

Then be sure to go back HOME to see everything is working correctly.

 
Posted : 28/09/2022 10:43 pm
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Hi Bill

Thank you for responding.

Regarding documentation, yes, I just discovered the series of articles you mentioned above. They are excellent and I have been studying them.

By "the scene with the Part I wanted to control..." I meant, that I have Keyboard Control enabled for every part, but I used Scenes to mute all Parts except the part that contains the parameters I want to control with the Assign knobs. I do not have any Parts selected.

BTW, everything is working fine.

With my new knowledge from reading some of the articles, I now understand that a Part has to be selected for it's Part Assign Knobs to work. So I used a workaround to assign Common Audio Assign Knobs to control Part Assign knobs.

I select a Performance, select a Scene that mutes all Parts except the Part I need and the Assign Knobs controls the parameters in the Part. It work! Interesting stuff!

 
Posted : 29/09/2022 11:57 am
Jason
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member
 

I select a Performance, select a Scene that mutes all Parts except the Part I need and the Assign Knobs controls the parameters in the Part. It work! Interesting stuff!

I read that you have everything working the way you want. Seems like your scenes are working perfectly for what you're trying to accomplish. Good.

 
Posted : 29/09/2022 9:29 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

With my new knowledge from reading some of the articles, I now understand that a Part has to be selected for it's Part Assign Knobs to work. So I used a workaround to assign Common Audio Assign Knobs to control Part Assign knobs.

True, “… a Part has to be selected for it’s Part Assign Knobs to work”, when you are KBD CTRL’ing multiple Parts, it is those parameters you desire to have real-time access to while performing that you would link to the upper Common Assign Knobs.

It allows you to reach down from the top level of the architecture to, in turn, control any of the individual Part Assign Knobs on the Parts that you designate. This scheme, additionally, allows you scale the amount and direction of the movement.

This is not a workaround, so much as it is the way you decide what gets assigned to the Common Assign Knobs. It lets you bring to the front just the knobbed parameters to which you want instant access … the Common Knob controls the linked Part Knob… giving you access to parameters deep within the Parts (side-by-side)

Because working with Multi Part Performances supports several workflows perhaps a few examples might clarify.

In a KBD CTRL Performance where you are simultaneously controlling electric piano, synth pad and brass, you might - you might opt to have access to the Depth of the epiano’s chorus effect, the Reverb Send on the pad Part, and the number of repeats on the brass Parts. Rather than selecting each to make a change - link control over the individual Part Knob to a Common knob and name it!

If you are controlling both an acoustic piano and string orchestra, simultaneously, but you want to have direct access to certain Knob-assigned string orchestra Part parameters, you simply link just those assignments to the upper Common Assign Knob level of the architecture. The upper Common Assign Knobs are readily accessible without having to select the Part directly.

Remember, the 8 Common Assign Knobs default to being linked with the Super Knob, but if you desire direct control of a string orchestra Part’s parameter alone, you can unLink a Common Assign Knob from the Super Knob… use it directly.

This way you can remain at the Performance (KBD CTRL) level, and still have access to those individual Part parameters you wish to control. You have this correct — but rather than think of it as a workaround, this is a recommended workflow… and is, in fact, central to how this ‘alien technology’ is designed to work. (It allows you to layer multiple sounds yet intelligently address each one while performing).

Often when accessing a variety of instrument combinations within a Performance (using Scenes), you may desire a direct Assign Knob available. This will determine how you customize the upper level Knob Assignments. Those changes that need to occur simultaneously can be assigned to the same Common Assign Knob.

You can further influence ‘how’ each responds at the Common Assign Knob as to direction and as to minimum/maximum range - so that a single gesture makes precisely all the changes you want across multiple instruments under your control. Rather than having to tweak each individually (it’s an additional, and extremely extraordinary feature). Of course, it’s a choice, you may want a separate knob for each or you may want to consolidate them and control them as makes sense for your music.

Knob assignments can be named (recommended)… when you are truly making a Performance your own, the ability to name or describe what a Common Assign Knob is changing becomes very important. Often the Knob is doing just one thing but you can use any of the 8 Common Assign Knobs to change parameters of any Part, even multiple Parts.

Final Thoughts: while true, “… a Part has to be selected for it’s Part Assign Knobs to work”, you can access any Part parameter by uplinking it to the Super Knob/Common Assign level of the architecture. By ‘any Part’ this includes both KBD CTRL Parts and non-KBD CTRL Parts (those playing back data or those under external influence).

The Super Knob is ALWAYS available, no special button needs to be activated, no specific conditions or screen requirements need to be met. The 8 Common Assign Knobs are available anytime the [ASSIGN] button is lit (1-4) or is flashing (5-8) and you are on the Performance level where you would typically use KBD CTRL to address multiple Parts together.

You can place those Part parameters you need access to right in front of you without having to *select* the Part. Recommended: Give your assignment Knobs ‘nicknames’ so you can easily know what you are controlling.

If you want individual direct control via a Knob, you can unlink it from the Super Knob.

Extra Credit: The way the operating system defaults, when you attempt to assign a Part parameter to the Super Knob, it will look for and automatically select the lowest numbered non-assigned Common Assign Knob. But understand, multiple things can manually be assigned to any of the Common Assign Knob. The system will not automatically stack assignments; This is to ensure you will ‘review’ that this does not present a surprise or unwanted conflict.

Because, typically, not every parameter needs to be accessible via your Knobs… but having a separate Knob for each parameter that you absolutely need to adjust while performing is naturally the way things flow when programming — building them one at a time. But as soon as you start pushing the system you realize that it can make sense to combine certain parameters changes to the same Knob — a single Knob can control multiple parameter Destinations. It becomes more important *when* in the musical composition the value changes need to occur…. Like at the moment you go from the Verse to the Chorus of the song. This way moving the Knob will take care of every change you require, to all the Parts that require a change.

 
Posted : 05/10/2022 6:06 pm
Posts: 0
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Topic starter
 

Thank you so much, Bad Mister for sharing your incredible depth of knowledge about this topic,

Regards

 
Posted : 06/10/2022 6:23 am
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
 

Creating links should be vastly more intuitive.

Yamaha's had enough time to make a couple of screens that indicate relationships between knobs AND the direct means of editing/creating links AND informative, dynamic readouts of resultant values so we can get a holistic view of what we've done and what we need to do to get what we actually wanted.

or a PC Editor for this kind of thing.

Take aa look at the Vital Synth plugin to see how this is being done in the future that is now.

 
Posted : 07/10/2022 7:52 pm
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