Var/Reverb (also called system effects) Returns are global for the entire Performance. This impacts ALL of the system effects together.

Var/Reverb Sends are individual for each Part. This allows for each Part to have a different relative depth of the system effects.

The "total" depth depends on both send and return. You can look at sends similar to per-channel (think mixing board) levels while the return is the master fader.

Now -- when asking "why doesn't this seem to be the right setting?" has a common response. What you're saying is there is a ghost in the machine you can't identify because although you set something to 0 -- it doesn't sound like 0. And the common response would be: that's because something else is offsetting the value to a non-zero final result.

The most likely situation is you would go into the Part that should have the send set to 0 (but doesn't sound like it) and [EDIT] that Part. Then navigate to "Mod/Control" -> "Control Assign". Then change the "Display Filter" to "All". Now look at your destinations for "Var Send" or "Rev Send". There may be multiple pages of destinations - so arrow right (if available - top right area) to see the next page (and next page ... and next page).

If you find Var Send or Rev Send as a destination - then you'll see there's a source for that which will be a knob or button or some such thing. You can then check this knob/button to see if it's set to provide the result you want (0 offset) and change it - OR - you can delete the destination altogether to stop the offset from occurring.

The fact that this offset is there is not a "bad" thing. I think when you get bit by this -- not knowing how some Performance is programmed and you feel duped by your gear -- it can seem like a bug or problem. I still think that the keyboard should have a button you can press to see the offset value so you could quickly determine that a setting IS offset. That doesn't look like it's coming - so you'll need to get more familiar with the "Control Assign" section and look through that for previous programming.

I think it's not great to say "just delete all of the assignments". This may be one way out - but it's a bit of a sledgehammer. It would be preferable to get familiarized with this aspect of the keyboard's programming and learn to glance at this if you are to inherit someone else's programming. You may want to keep the offsetting of the Sends - and otherwise setup the SOURCE controller to result in a "0" offset at the start but allow for increasing this by spinning/pressing the source controller.

If/when the programmer wants to have realtime control over the Reverb and/or Variation Send, that parameter's control may be removed from the Mixer and placed on an Assignable Control. It is that simple and complex. Access to the Assign Knobs, Super Knob, Pedals, Wheels, etc, are often more accessible than trying to navigate to the mixer to make an adjustment - often you need both hands for the keys. When you see the symptoms you describe - it is likely because the SEND amount has been made accessible during performing.

Typically you can think of the PARTS as musical instrument in a band.
You can think of the Sliders, Sends, Pan etc., as part of the band's mixer.

Sometimes you will see that control over the Part Volume, Reverb Send, Variation Send or Insertion Effect parameters are programmed (for convenience) to either an Assign Knob or the Super Knob so that it can be adjusted quickly and easily from the front panel or by linking the Super Knob to an FC7 pedal.

The programmer can adjust whether complete or partial control is given to a particular controller. For example, you may want to start out with a Part with a small amount of Reverb, and during play, you many want to slowing increase the amount of Reverb for the solo section and then bring it back to the amount you had in the beginning. The Control Assign matrix will allow you to assign full or partial control over the amount of Reverb Send.

When you turn the SEND amount to 0 and are still getting SEND - it is because partial control has been given to an accessible Controller -- with the Control Assign setup, you can determine how much and in what direction the SEND will change.

When layering as many as 8 Parts as on the KBD CTRL Multi Part Performances, this type of control becomes essential. Each PART is individually addressable in realtime.

Picture a synth with what is 'dumb layering' - one where all 8 Parts are stacked on the same MIDI channel... Increasing the Reverb Send amount on one of the PARTS will do what dumb layering does, it will affect all 8 PARTS the same amount. (Oh, you could probably opt out on controlling Reverb to some of the PARTS but it's all-or-nothing... you can either opt in or opt out.

A KBD CTRL layer with the Control Assign matrix per PART allows you to, with a single knob, turn the Reverb Send up on one Part while turning it down on another, while increasing it a little on a third Part and a lot on the fourth Part and so on... each can be set to respond, (or not), the precise amount and in the direction you desire.

Suggestion:
When studying a Performance, it is a good idea to review the originally assigned Controllers, Assign Knobs, Super Knob, etc.
From the HOME screen:
Tap "Motion Control" > "Overview"
Here you can see what is going on with your Controllers.
You can review COMMON and individual PARTs
You have "shortcut" boxes to take you directly to the appropriate Control Assign screen, be it for the upper COMMON or a specific individual PART.

There are 16 Control Assign DESTINATIONS available for COMMON and there are 16 Control Assign DESTINATION available for each active PART.

On a Control Assign screen, set the "AUTO SELECT" to active (green)... now moving a Controller will immediately display what is assigned to each controller as you activate it.

You can alternatively, set the DISPLAY FILTER = ALL
then you can see all 16 possible DESTINATIONS... 4 to PAGE, 4 possible PAGES
If you wish to remove an assignment, or try the Performance without the particular SOURCE Controller - simply tap the DELETE box in the lower right corner. (the assignment will be removed but held in a buffer should you decide to restore it).

Hope that helps. (Screenshots are from the MONTAGE - slightly different on the MODX/MODX+)
If you working on a Factory Performance -be sure to STORE your version of the Performance (with a different NAME)!!!

Thanks for the help. It turns out AsgnKnob 8 had Rev/Var Send as destinations - deleting these fixed my problem.

A follow up question I have is how to determine the starting value of the knob. Before checking the Control Assign page, I turned the Var Send to 0 in the Mixing page for the performance. If Var Send is a destination, shouldn't the knob have its starting point be whatever the Var Send value is in the Mixing page?

Many times in the past, I have recommended deleting all Control Assigns first, before attempting to build a new custom Performance from borrowed Parts.

I even wrote a tutorial on how to do it.

I then build my own Control Assigns from the proverbial Blank Canvas. I find this to be 1000% easier.

I think it would be fair to say I am entirely alone in this opinion.

Also, assignable knobs can be linked directly (for Common knobs) or indirectly (through Common Knobs for the Part level Knobs) to Super Knob. And that there may be a Super Knob position that sets a given Assignable Knob (Part level - because these are the ones that are sources for Part-level Var/Rev Sends) to zero. You would select the Part you want from the home screen (and cancel out of the popup menu) which will show you the 8 Assignable Knobs and then spin superknob and watch the Knob you're interested in travel through values -- that is, if it's indirectly linked to superknob. Then you can discover what Super Knob position(s) will cause the Knob of interest to set to 0.

Then saving the Super Knob position may be something to do as well. And/or take the default Scene (which may also set the Super Knob position) and save the given Super Knob position that results in the Part-level Knob as 0 -- saving this into Super Knob position into the Scene.

[quotePost id=119875]

A follow up question I have is how to determine the starting value of the knob.

The 'starting value of the knob' will be 1) 64 for a new performance/part or 2) whatever you change the value to.

Before checking the Control Assign page, I turned the Var Send to 0 in the Mixing page for the performance.

Please explain - the 'performance' doesn't have a 'Var Send' - that parm is for parts.

If Var Send is a destination, shouldn't the knob have its starting point be whatever the Var Send value is in the Mixing page?

No - as explained above. Knob values are 'offsets' - they don't get their value from other parameters.

[/quotePost]

Aside from this ~Andrew~ being the artist formerly known as Bill, this offset claim is a bit misleading.

John, it's easier to think of them as modifiers. You're right, the underlying value is modified to the extent the Ratio influences it at the current knob position.

Antony, the reason it's not more popular (removing all controller assignments) is that the resultant value at the time of deletion is not that which you get when deleting the assignments. Instead you get the unmodified values. So deletion of all assignments can result in the sound no longer sounding as it was.

One of the low hanging fruit suggestions I made was that removing assignments of controllers should calculate and set the current resultant value of the knob value (if that's what's being deleted) influence over the underlying, modified parameter, thereby avoiding any unwanted surprises when deleting connections and their modification of resulting values.

But, as someone else recently pointed out, it's been a while between updates...

@Andrew quote...

"Antony, the reason it's not more popular (removing all controller assignments) is that the resultant value at the time of deletion is not that which you get when deleting the assignments. Instead you get the unmodified values. So deletion of all assignments can result in the sound no longer sounding as it was."

Exactly. Some Root Cause Analysis here is that a MODX/MONTAGE User needs to learn and understand the Control Assign Operations, but also understand and learn the general OS of the Synth.

Let's get down to brass tacks. Despite assurances to the contrary.... the MODX/MONTAGE OS is not "Easy". If it was, Yamahsynth would be a lonely place.

It's a bit of an Elephant In The Room situation.

It would be better for all, just to admit that the OS is highly complex and technical. This, in itself, is not a problem, because the Complex OS allows for truly extraordinary power.

The MODX/MONTAGE are top drawer Synthesisers. Pretending they are "simple" does not serve benefit to anyone.

In terms of Complexity, I am at an advantage. I work in Telecommunications. Nothing I work with is simple. Everything has a complex OS, and everything requires learning and understanding, in order to operate.

This is "normal" for me. I expect it to be the case. Therefore I just get on with it.

When I first bought my MODX7, I very quickly realised that I needed to learn the MODX in order to use it, and get the most from it. A lot of "bedtime reading" as we say in comms.

It is not "beyond comprehension" for an average adult, but, let's all at least admit... there is a learning curve, and you will have to spend time learning.

Pretending it's all just a "cake walk" is not doing anybody any favours.

I would liken learning the MODX, to be on the same scale as learning a DAW.

Being complex is not a problem, or the problem. It is necessary to achieve power and versatility.

However, if new potential buyers, were advised immediately about the technical complexity, they might get to grips with it sooner.

@Andrew....

a slight aside.... in your last post, are you admitting that you were also posting as "Bill"? Andrew = Bill, using an alias?

It's starting to make sense if you were/are "Bill".

[quotePost id=119879]

Aside from this ~Andrew~ being the artist formerly known as Bill, this offset claim is a bit misleading.

[/quotePost]

If you right-click on the "Andrew" names in this thread you'll see there are two.

Post #119875:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/profile/833495-andrew

Post #119879:
https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/profile/827425-andrew

The message board, confusingly, doesn't prevent from using the same name for multiple IDs. My suggestion for this situation is to change your icon to help differentiate.

Currently both "Andrew"s have the same icon so differentiating is difficult (but not impossible).

[quotePost id=119882]@Andrew....

a slight aside.... in your last post, are you admitting that you were also posting as "Bill"? Andrew = Bill, using an alias?

It's starting to make sense if you were/are "Bill".

[quotePost id=119879]

Aside from this ~Andrew~ being the artist formerly known as Bill, this offset claim is a bit misleading.

[/quotePost][/quotePost]

No, I'm not Bill. Bill is somewhat real, I think... though this ~Andrew~ account is Bill's account, bereft of its posting history, which he deleted a little while back, but with the points for his answers still intact. You can see that the bio was adjusted a little while ago, Bill's account ~ renamed, to Andrew.

Odd thing to do.

I presumed it was Bill because of the sentence structure and attitude.

There are a couple other Andrews on this forum, as well as a couple with lowercase a's, too.

On the complexity issue, I dearly wish there was a way to find the offending modifier/controller FROM the value I'm interested in, at any given time.

John, Jason, Antony and [Bill caste to an Andrew] imagine if you're looking at that Variable and Reverb setting for your Part, and you could hold down Shift and then Tap that value on the screen, and it instantly show you what Modifiers/Control Assignments were "down the chain" scaling/modifying this value AND see the current actual value being contributed to the sound as a result of these Modifiers.

This is the kind of thing that would surface the next aspect of using this synth, watching what Motion Sequencers (another form of Control Modifier that can influence Var and Rev) are doing in realtime to the ultimate actualised output value of these.

There's so many menu pages already, it wouldn't hurt to have a few more that revealed what was going on at any given time, to any given property.

It is no different on my other Synths.

Control Assigns aka "Macros" are only visible if the user consciously interrogates the "Macro Programming" area of the Synth.

I noticed a very similar complaint in a Hydrasynth related thread.... the user was not able to turn off Reverb, despite him having the Reverb directly "nulled". The reason... 3 Macro's... Decay, Pre-Delay and Dry/Wet Mix... all at maximum. There are 64 potential assignments (8x8) and the only way to know what they are, is by scrolling through the menu pages and noting what each is doing.

In an ideal world, any parameter that is being offset and/or macro controlled, would have a visible icon showing that.

I doubt that will ever happen.

[quotePost id=119889]It is no different on my other Synths.
[/quotePost]

There are some massive differences between the MODX/Montage and all other synths that mean it SHOULD provide easy insight into what it's doing with regards both motion and assigned controllers, because it has, as the twin centrepieces of its USPs... the Motion Sequencer and the SuperKnob (and sundry controls).

They did one round of improvements to the assignment process before the MODX came out, but much more is possible in terms of enhancement and surfacing easier creative insight and potential with both the Motion Sequencers and SuperKnob (and other controllers and their relationships to parameters).

And there's the huge miss of not being able to assign Velocity as a controller... for another time. Jason's articulated this issue quite well several times.... it's a huge miss.

No other synths have ever put this unique combination of motions and controls forward integrated with 8 timbres under direct keyboard control. It, therefore, behooves Yamaha to empower its users with the BIG TOUCHSREEN that's right in front of the users, as much as possible (I think), so we get ever more creative (and less technical) users making ever more evolving and dynamic sounds of great precision and exquisite relationships with one another.

That's not happening because only people like you and I and the artist formerly known as Bill are able to fully grok what's going on, and we're not exactly class leading creative sound designers, if we're being honest.

There's a severe dearth of creativity coming from/to the MODX/Montage compared to both mono and bitrimbral synths, and especially when compared to something like the packs available for the Fantom.

I can't help but feel that the technical limitations of the filters combine with the awkwardness of the configurations of motion and superknob contribute significantly to this odd cul-de-sac like life these products are going through.

A great pity, as the effects with FM-X are kind of cool, in a newish way, especially when animating them in contrasting ways across several parts, and bringing them in and out of focus/tweaking with the Master Effects. It's quite possible to make very complex evolving relationships, but it's mind bendingly tedious to do it... which means barely anyone does it more than once, creatively.

SADLY, I agree with you, concessions and considerations favouring (and to) usability and work flow aren't likely to happen.

I think the Control Assigns only start to make sense after you have run through the process a few times. That said, I did find it hard to picture at first.

I have said before I would have liked to see Parameter Values changing in the EDIT Screens.... may be a White "Programmed" value, underset with a Red "Active" value (= Programmed Value +/- Offset Value). This way you could at least see if your Scaling was good, or adjust it if was causing the value to Pin.

I think if the Parameter Box changed colour.... say to Orange... if it was under a Control Assign would also help debug, when weird stuff starts happening (cannot turn reverb off, cannot use Sliders for Volume etc).

BTW.... has Bill left? I've not seen any posts lately, but it also looks like everything he ever wrote has been deleted.

BTW2... The Filters are fine... dig into the tutorials I wrote.