Volume, Level, ( TomAto, Tomato.) I guess the question would be.. Is there a master performance "level" that is global over each performance? Perhaps that is the puzzle piece I need to find.
What thinkest thou?

... if you wanted to see if effects makes the volume different then press the "FX" icon on the top line of the Touchscreen and then turn off all effects and review the loud and soft Performances with effects off (insert off, system off, master off).

If you want, you can add a "quiet" Performance and a "loud" Performance on Soundmondo and then I (or anyone) would be able to dig in and let you know what's causing the difference.

There's probably enough information here to have you hunt around and find the culprit yourself.

I fire up all of my Performances by using Live Set. Therefore, the easiest way for me (since I use this) to normalize the volume between various Performances would be to change the volume offset in the Live Set slots. That wouldn't help if you use [CATEGORY SEARCH] or a non-Live-Set MSB/LSB/PC method of selecting your Performance.

thanks for the responses. I will experiment with them to see what i can learn. My appreciation for the responses is at a high ebb.

[quotePost id=119283]Volume, Level, ( TomAto, Tomato.)[/quotePost]

rofl ... quantum physics 😀 I also have problems to read/understand such.
Once they explained me the difference between "expression-" and "volume-pedal" ... me ... an organ-player 😉 As an answer, because the FC as "master volume" regulator (called "sweller") does not properly function (with arps running). I wonder, why Yamaha made an extra hole in the chassis for that!? I don't use this any more ... no soft ending possible ... perhaps with a "fading" scene.

My simple experience of your problem: the volume settings on the "live performance" page. Klick "job" ... then right down the volume. This often is a dice game from Yamaha.

First of all ... and no matter what they tell you ... "volume" is a real, real, REAL Problem for Yamaha. My first experience with it was the search for "rhythm pattern". Big risk of detroying eardrum!!!

Also: the volume of sounds over the whole keybed (88 on my MODX). Physiologically you hear the lower less than the higher...normal. But Yamaha decided to aggravate this by what quantum physicians call "level". I play for over 40 years ... cannot imagine, what they thought doing so.
Not the same "level" as "volume". It's indeed called "level". Go to elements, choose one, go to "amplitude". There one can regulate ... the "level". I have many prefered sounds, where this is absolutely necessary!!! Otherwise you can't hear low frequencies, whereas high frequencies destroy your eardrum.

And even those hints do not allways help. E.g. I create own sounds, save them and recall them in another performance. There they have a completely different volume. Complicated to find the cause... quantum physics.

And even more fun, if you try to add elements. E.g. you have 2 nice elements. And you want to play in octave-grip ... exhausting with small hands (me). But we are clever software-users 😉 A clever idea would be to double those elements and change the pitch (octave). But ... not with Yamaha. Search "cathegory" or "number" ... and have fun 😀 Same name ... completely different sound. COMPLETELY. Oops. Use copy-function instead.

The main problem is to my experience, that you allways "catch flu" when chossing something ... presets, elements, no matter what. Countless (different) adjustments in countless parameters, Endless search for "reasons why".

I am allways having fun when searching on low level (e.g. arps). 50% of them are "dead" ... also many reasons ... "arp on"/"ms on" not pressed ... and many, many other reasons. No volume ... no level 😉

[quotePost id=119491]

The main problem is to my experience, that you allways "catch flu" when chossing something ... presets, elements, no matter what. Countless (different) adjustments in countless parameters, Endless search for "reasons why".

I am allways having fun when searching on low level (e.g. arps). 50% of them are "dead" ... also many reasons ... "arp on"/"ms on" not pressed ... and many, many other reasons. No volume ... no level ;)[/quotePost]

Getting flashbacks reading this. Know exactly what you mean!

And about the volume/level changes... even more fun resides in the well programmed FM-X sounds, wherein designers have gone to great trouble to try get rid of the accentuation in higher registers and boost the bass. Probably even with external instruments to measure what they're doing, so arbitrary seem some of their number ranges. And then this needs further assistance with the Mixer etc. So much fun (not) without an onscreen (the screen is right there) metering of frequency and volumes...

@Andrew

Nice to come to know a realistic person 😉
Sorry for my english (german) and the lack of english technical terms.

As I mentioned, I am coming from eOrgan/Pipe Organ. At Pipe Organs you only have ONE chance to level this right! Therefore a special skill from special people (worldwide rare, rarer, the rarest). They didn't have an oscillograph. This knowledge/problem is known since hundreds of years ... and solved.
Depending on the organ you have sliders/foot knobs to create oktave-grip or even manuals-combinations. So simple ... so old this technique. The solo-playability of an (e)organ is unbeatable. I MISS THIS with those synths.

But Yamaha also builts pianos and keyboards. They should have every possible knowledge!!!
But synths ... obviously a strange bubble in developement. Also the people playing it ... develop it?

This amplitude level ... I don't understand the sense of ONLY adjusting it to higher "registers"(?). As far as I saw it.
I don't work with (extremly complicated) FM sounds. I am not a sound-designer and didn't grew up with this. I'm having enough problems with learning all those features an adjustments (after one year). FM(X) construction ... I fear not in this life 😉 Nevertheless I watch Dom Sigalas' videos. He is an exceptional explainer!

I don't know if Yamaha uses an oscillograph/volume-meter/experienced ear in the sampling machine. I only know that some sample are poorly inserted (clear "character"-change of the sound). And I also found some (I assume) output-problems (dissappearing notes & scratch). Because I don't come from piano I changed the main velocity-curve to soft ("easier to play"). Since then I have an "overdrive" in one guitar-song (scratch). Clearly produced by the machine, not my earphones.

But they should know the "volume-perception" problem. But as I said: "volume" doesn't belong to their vocabulary 😉 And even if they don't use one, they should have regulated this amp-level towards the lower side.
Also the rhythm arpeggios ... snare drum (and simular perc) hammers all other percussions to the ground. One can also adjust this on the element-level ... if you know this.
If you don't know such edges of this machine, you are nonstop having problems. Nearly nothing, no preset, nor anthing else is set to a standard "ground level". And what this "standard" is, Yamaha should know from their other instruments.
I neither know nor do I understand what's up there.

P.S.: But to make it clear: IT CAN BE SOLVED by adjustments in paranters.

@Bill

familar fellow 😉

Problem with filters? Search YT for DAW experts making songs. They play around with filters and create fantastic effects with them. Helped me, could help you.

Oh yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every point ... RIGHT!
Definately not made for synth-beginners.
I have a fine system to climb this "ladder". Step by step; feature by feature. Sometimes triggered by a feature I see, sometimes by a song, I want to arrange.

Come on ... let's laugh one round 😀
With your shopping list I built an "organ" when I was 11 or so 😀 With potentiometers and capacitors, some wire and "odds and ends". Thumbtacks (the head of the old version) were the keys (trigger). I (learnt organ) made it as a part of a school-project to demonstrate how old eOrgans functioned. Frenquency of the unloading capacitor "klick" makes the sound. My first organ was based on this principal (much more complicated of course). Cool, isn't it!? 😉

I don't know, and perhaps won't ever know, what all those parameters do. I am a player! I do all those things only because it's of need. I do it like Sigalas in his videos. I play around with them, listening, what happens. If explained, I do my best to keep it in mind.
I do this with every feature. But I also wasted hours and hours experimenting with MS and the assignment to a defined parameter ... bi ... uni ... bi/uni in the Lane a.s.o. only for ONE lesson. In germany we shortly say "you can do it like the roofers" ... sliding down the right side or sliding down the left side 😀 Bi/Uni in both is afaik double trouble.
And the biggest mystery with MS are those options "synch" and "key on reset". Moessieurs (french Yamaha) explained it to me. So far, so good. But I have two performances with MS. One does NOT function by reason. It functioned, when I tried out every option/combination ... and stopped, when it does what I want. The problem was the synchronisation/starting point. And I have "beat" (normally audio signal) and "1st on" (hear it when not legato play). Any other option/combination does not properly start.
When I set in the other performance MS on "beat", I get a "stutter", or we say it "chokes"; means no proper start. So it is set like it is meant "tempo".
Only god and Yamaha know, what's up there. I don't mind ... both function ... mission accomplished.

Filters ... hm ... don't know exactly what is meant with "filters" ... names, functions. Theory is not my favorite subject. NOW, with my new project I got into contact with that. First time I designed a sound (AWM). And I change it with my FS on Superknob by FEG Changes. Really intersting theme. And suuuuper coool!!!
But I agree ... only experienced pros know what to do in order to create the desired result. As I said. Take a look on YT.

There are some important points made above. I will extract them here as food for thought...

1) Factory Presets are designed and created by different people (3rd Party, Not Yamaha, paid for their time). As such, each likely had a different approach. Some adopt moderate "gain staging", others just go "max". There probably was not a remit regards minimum or maximum output levels.

2) There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of parameters that can have an effect on the final output level, and they are not necessarily labelled anything as obvious as Level, Volume or Gain. For example, a Low Pass Filter with a Low Cutoff, will be more quiet than a High Cutoff, unless compensated. Another example, a seemingly high/adequate "Level" value may be held artificially low, with a "Negative Offset". The usual culprits are Control Assigns, but may also be innocuous parameters such as "Level/Vel", Velocity Sensitivity, Curves or Fixed Offsets.

3) The only real solution is experience and familiarity with the OS. Let's be honest, that does take time and commitment. I often found myself "reverse engineering" Factory Presets, in order to learn what was going on, and to re-puropse them to my own needs. Very often I was left 100% confused and at a dead end, but this Forum always came back with the answer.

The secret here is to be very specific i.e. "what is the dead end" you see?. It also helps, if you provide specific "Factory Preset" examples... because we all have them to scrutinise.

If you build your own Presets, that subsequently don't work... all bets are off. Unless you upload it to Soundmondo, or can zero into an exact parameter that is misbehaving.

Your point is spot-on. I'm struggling with the same issue right now regarding filters. Plenty of them are provided and all have preset parameters. But unless you are already an audio expert there is nothing to guide you on either how to select them, typical ways to configure them or even how each one is different from the others.

Each filter has a graph which shows which frequencies pass (tall lines) and which are cut (no lines) with varying levels of pass/cut between. The left side of the graph are low frequencies and right side are high frequencies.

You can figure out how the filter relates to a frequency of some note you play on the keyboard. Hold down the key so it sustains forever (of course pick a sound that does this and doesn't decay like an acoustic piano) and then move the graph using cutoff to watch where the low part of the graph is (left to right) when you stop hearing sound. That break point is the played note's frequency. It might help to have the frequencies labeled - but you can make up for this without too much trouble using this approach. The down-arrow of "Filter Type" seems to be just to the right of A440.

Filters are not a thousand way kind of thing. There are pretty limited controls and each control is fairly well depicted on the graph when you change it. Resonance, Cutoff, Gain, and a few other shaping parameters for the duals. Out of all the things this instrument is equipped with - filters are no real mystery. They conform to standard terms. The implementation or execution of the filters maybe something debatable - but the parameters and function are pretty common place.

[quotePost id=119504]@Andrew

Nice to come to know a realistic person 😉
Sorry for my english (german) and the lack of english technical terms.

As I mentioned, I am coming from eOrgan/Pipe Organ. At Pipe Organs you only have ONE chance to level this right! Therefore a special skill from special people (worldwide rare, rarer, the rarest). They didn't have an oscillograph. This knowledge/problem is known since hundreds of years ... and solved.
Depending on the organ you have sliders/foot knobs to create oktave-grip or even manuals-combinations. So simple ... so old this technique. The solo-playability of an (e)organ is unbeatable. I MISS THIS with those synths.

But Yamaha also builts pianos and keyboards. They should have every possible knowledge!!!
But synths ... obviously a strange bubble in developement. Also the people playing it ... develop it?

This amplitude level ... I don't understand the sense of ONLY adjusting it to higher "registers"(?). As far as I saw it.
I don't work with (extremly complicated) FM sounds. I am not a sound-designer and didn't grew up with this. I'm having enough problems with learning all those features an adjustments (after one year). FM(X) construction ... I fear not in this life 😉 Nevertheless I watch Dom Sigalas' videos. He is an exceptional explainer!

I don't know if Yamaha uses an oscillograph/volume-meter/experienced ear in the sampling machine. I only know that some sample are poorly inserted (clear "character"-change of the sound). And I also found some (I assume) output-problems (dissappearing notes & scratch). Because I don't come from piano I changed the main velocity-curve to soft ("easier to play"). Since then I have an "overdrive" in one guitar-song (scratch). Clearly produced by the machine, not my earphones.

But they should know the "volume-perception" problem. But as I said: "volume" doesn't belong to their vocabulary 😉 And even if they don't use one, they should have regulated this amp-level towards the lower side.
Also the rhythm arpeggios ... snare drum (and simular perc) hammers all other percussions to the ground. One can also adjust this on the element-level ... if you know this.
If you don't know such edges of this machine, you are nonstop having problems. Nearly nothing, no preset, nor anthing else is set to a standard "ground level". And what this "standard" is, Yamaha should know from their other instruments.
I neither know nor do I understand what's up there.

P.S.: But to make it clear: IT CAN BE SOLVED by adjustments in paranters.[/quotePost]

EDM Bruddah! Where art thoust?

Don't even get me started on FM... ok... but just a little...

First insight [I think it was @Brian on these forums that opened my third eye to this realisation] that's absolutely essential to understanding FM is realising that it's NOT actually Frequency Modulation (FM), but is actually Phase Modulation. This opens the door to understanding what kind of company the electronics branch of Yamaha actually is, too.

They're a little flexible. If you catch my drift.

There's much talk about the similarities between FM and pipe organs, but I don't find that to be true. The amount of fakery required and additional "plumbing" required to make FM have any of the characteristics and liveness of a pipe organ means you're better off just sampling a real one. Which could have been done better than ever during the early months of covid lockdowns when all the airlines, buses and trains stopped... meaning that (for the first time in history) great microphones could have been used to sample the full depths of these amazing instruments without any ambient sound intrusions.

Did this happen? No... the churches were scared of upsetting the regulators, too. Idiots.

Insane.

Dancing nurses we got, instead.

And triple masking.

Which is the art of FM... using the second operator in a stack of three or more to mask the higher operators' influence over the carrier.

This made no sense, I'm sure. As it's explained in a way that only those that already understand FM can register.

So I'm going to try again:

Phase modulation of a Carrier is a truly horrific way to make sounds. Most of the ranges result in hideous, searing, ugly, horrendous sounds that nobody ever wants to hear twice.

But in the near transition into harmonically pleasing there's some screeching and tearing of sound that's somewhat ok.

But this is somewhat like the thickness of the atmosphere of the earth versus the gap between us and the moon. It's a tiny spectrum.

But you want some of the space outside our lovely atmosphere to make great sounds, and it's possible to use that searing sound of horrifically full distortions of waves through phase modulation, by somewhat masking such that it's at least intriguing and interesting remnants that we get, not the full blast of the sun.

It's in these spaces that it's possible to begin building an intuitive insight into the feels of Phase Modulation and maskings of it that are somewhat musical. To do this best, a middle operator must be used to mask those above the carrier's influence over the Phase (tearing) Modulation of the carrier such that it's somewhat pleasing, AND changes made to all manner of properties of the modulating operators... it's a lot of busy work to find the good bits.

The other tip... use only Res 1 for a good long while, with all carriers and operators, as the Sine wave is the ugliest sounding of the lot.

Worse, it's far easier to have fun with this (FM that is PM) in the Operator (what a name) synth within Ableton Live, because this gives you quite specific experimentations with the shape of the waves that aren't available in the MODX/Montage... to Yamaha's shame... because Phase modulation upon saw waves (and with square waves) is infinitely more fun than doing it with sine waves. [Yes, Antony, I know you can make impersonations of these with sine waves... but they're really not the same, nor good].

Much like programming is best learnt from a book rather than on a screen, FM synthesis is best experimented with via Operator within Ableton Live than on an actual FM (PM) hardware synth.

The MODX/Montage additions to FM is the X = FX, the two insert effects on each FM Part. WaveFolder being the king of these, as it finally brings character to FM that's somewhat enjoyable. And so do the Amp Overdrives.

Which beings me to the final point... with the FM Operators and Carriers, it's possible to adjust the "volume" on the lower and upper registers, separately, with both unique break points AND unique curves for each AND unique amounts for each...

Why this wasn't brought to AWM2 on these synths, and to the filters, is utterly beyond me, as it seems like a natural and wonderful way to make filters and samples sound vastly better.

And that's where we get back to Yamaha's tangible instruments. I'm a Yamaha Grand user from wayback. Finding out that Yamaha don't apply anywhere near the same rigour to their digital instruments that they do their best real world instruments has been a bit of a shock.

The soul, spirit, principles and practices that bring us their wonderful Yamaha grand pianos, that compete with the best, is not in their digital domain, anymore. This is sad precisely because the CS-80 and Vangelis showed what Yamaha COULD have been across both domains, but let slide. Mostly because of FM, sadly.

So I think you're right. Avoid it.

It was very difficult to get to an intuitive, tangible relationship with FM through the Yamaha Way, but it has opened getting at sounds that are uniquely punchy and extremely opinionated. This could and should be made easier within these boxes. But I don't think they care... and that's the same element of their attitude that's seen you discover these enormous disparities in volumes.

Back to working on my sangria recipes...

@Andrew

Vintage english ... thank you:p

Over 20 years ago I had THE highend Soundkart in my PC ... just for fun. There was a program to make synth(FM)-stuff. Because I am not a physician, I simply experimented with it (many knobs). Every time I turned a knob, something terrible came out. Honestely then my decision was made: "nothing for me!"
Funny unimportant fact: I know a guy (YT), who has such old synths. He is completely happy publishing "jam sessions". Question of taste ... main thing "he is happy with it!". But there I see exactly, what happened to me once. He turns knobs, and only "squeaking" sounds coming out.

A work for specialists!

I saw a DAW video. Completely DAW ... and sound design. I caught up what I saw and tried to copy it 1:1 on the MODX. Wave(s) ... parameters ... and to my surprise this functioned really well! But ... I used AWM waves. A bit of trying-around ... but no problems. Allways "sound". I nearly got the sound(s), he showed in the video. End also the effects ... and I even achieved the realtime controlling of it (with FC). I am happy 😀

I finally found some of those promised "possibilities". Of course not by myself. And perhaps not "perfect" ... but I am satisfied.
Nevertheless some of the features simply don't work right. Actually my "compressor sidechain". I think: "this machine can everything, but nothing really good".

But ... the PRICE. What to expect for 1.400 bugs!?

@Anthony

Yes, right. Presets ... investigation ... undestanding ...

But honestly ... the MODX software(structure) ... the complexity ... *head-shaking.
"Intuitive" and "order" is something different. I'm still searching for this highly praised "workflow". Okay ... old, hobby, first synth.
I found a nice review YT video, discussing the OS. From someone with skills/knowledge.

How much is "quiet some time needed"? For me I would guess 3 years or so ... to know where, what, how. I have it 1 year ... I am still at 80% of "where". Perhaps ... I assume, some things I even didn't see. Not funny.

Once I had some "problems" with preset performances ... I asked Moessieurs ... 5 Minutes later the explanation! ... there, here, effect, lane, parameter blablabla.... impressive!!! But he is a "Yamaha-Man"!!! And - much like in other things; e.g. physics - such people don't have an understanding, what problems "normal" people are confronted with. As I said: "they live in a bubble".

I am galaxies away from such a "research" ... perhaps 2 years 😉

@Babba...

With me, the MODX was my first and only Synth, so I was forced to learn it, otherwise it was just a room ornament.

It doesn't take 2-3 years. A few months, in instalments. Break it down into small specific chunks.

Right now... your mini project is to learn all the places Volume can be affected. Here are some high level pointers.

1) Some Samples (Elements) are recorded louder than others. You can't change this, only compensate.

2) 8 Active Elements in a Part is louder than just 1 Active Element.

3) Element Level Parameter

4) Element EQ has a Boost option. So does Master EQ.

5) Element Filter Gain

6) AWM and FM Part Volume

7) FM "Carrier" Operator Levels

8) FM Part Filter Gain and EQ Boost.

9) Insert, Variation and Master FX - sometimes have their own EQs, Boosts, Gains, Dry/Wet and Output Levels.

10) Control Assigns may be artificially cutting or boosting Volume. You won't know this unless you look through the Control Assign lists. See Below.

11) Use the "Mixer" Page for quick overviews and balancing.

12) Use the various Home Page "Views" to see the actual level of the Volume Faders/Sliders.

Re: Control Assigns. My preferred method for dealing with Control Assigns is to delete all of them, and then build only the ones I need.

You can target and delete specific Control Assigns if that is your preference.

To eliminate unwanted "hidden" Assigns that affect Volume, search the whole list and delete any that say "Volume" or "Level" as the Destination. Search this site, I wrote a How To Guide to do this.

Here's another I just recently learned...

Open Filters are louder than Partially Closed Filters.

You can increase Filter Gain to compensate for Partially Closed Filters.

Also note, INIT Patches have an "Organ Shape" Filter Envelope, with a Depth (Envelope Amount) of +40.

This means, that the INIT Filter is always Opening and Closing.

Most INIT Patches in other Synths have 0 Envelope Amount and Cutoff Value at Max (255), and 0% or 100% Key Tracking. Filter is effectively inactive.

It might be worth your time to "correct" this on a MODX, to stop any "wierd stuff" from sounding.