First, there's no dedicated search that just lists "Parts".  In the previous Motif line, all Performances were made up of Voices and a Voice was a more atomic entity than the Performance.  And basically Voices were mostly one-trick ponies that generated one sound on its own.  Similar to what individual Parts on Montage can do (and sometimes a Part is just a piece of a multi-Part sound).

That said, if you filter by Single-Part Performances then everything you select from will be "basically" equivalent of the old Voice system.  At least, anything you store with a single Part (and anything from the factory presets that are single Parts) will be the type of thing you're looking for.

Now - if you can't find what you're after by doing that -- you can tell the Performance Merge (that's what happens when you press the [+] button) to only lift one Part from a given Performance.  You would edit the "Source" and tell it which Part you want.

https://yamahasynth.com/learn/montage-series-synthesizers/using-montage-category-search/

From the link, I've answered for Montage classic.  I'm not sure which Montage you have - but the architecture is similar in this respect.

Hi, if you want to select only single part performances, go to attribute and select "single parts" to filter on them,  that are in green colors, you will only have part by part in that case. You can check my Montage M part and merge category search video done on Montage M, on the idea it work in same way on Montage first generation and MODX's 

https://youtu.be/orWur6fn4Lw

Hope that's help

I understand that I can find parts by sorting the green performances, but I was assuming that those parts had been tweaked, and I don't want the settings to import with the part. I am looking for an original "untweaked" version.   Am I not understanding how this works?

There's no "untweaked" material unless you're building from scratch - meaning from built-in samples with no Performance data at all.

If you considered Voices in Motif XF to be the "untweaked" sounds then single-Part Performances is as close as you are going to get to this.

Otherwise pull individual Parts from Performances.

The hierarchy in Montage has flattened MOXF's for ease-of-use and now everything is a Performance - no voices.   Unless you want to work from samples either add in single-Part Performances, add in an entire Performance (all Parts), or select which Part(s) of the donor Performance you want to add.

Many times you'll need to adjust something to compensate for the differences in controls (Superknob to eventual Part level knob assignments), system/master effects, etc.   

but I was assuming that those parts had been tweaked

Except for the INIT performances you should assume that ALL parts of ALL performances have been 'tweaked'.

Unlike Stage Pianos the presets of a synth are, more or less, designed to showcase what is POSSIBLE and aren't necessarily suitable to use 'as is'.

Individual parts of a preset may not appear to work at all, or may not work as you would expect, if you just copy the part into your own performance.

Examine the first performance CFX and FM EP - a combination of two different pianos. You can morph between the two using the Super Knob.

1. load the performance

2. mute part 1 and play some notes - you won't hear anything

3. edit/examine part 2

4. on the Mod / Control -> Control Assign notice that destination 3 is assigned to Volume

5. the ratio of -64 combined with the decreasing curve type sets the volume so low you won't hear it

6. turning the superknob brings part 2 into the picture and takes part 1 out of it.

Result - if you just copy part 2 into a performance it isn't going to add anything until you remove, modify or compensate for the 'tweaking' that was done to the part.

That example is NOT an exception - it is the norm.

and I don't want the settings to import with the part.

You only have that option when you select an existing part and then choose 'Category Search' to select a part to replace the existing part. Page 435 of the Op doc (Part Category Search) shows your 4 'Param with Part' options that allow you to keep or replace selected parameters of the existing part.

I am looking for an original "untweaked" version.

You need to create your own set of 'untweaked' performances to build on. One way to do that is to thoroughly any preset of interest and cleanse it of any 'tweaking' you aren't interested in. Then save it as a user performance. Use those 'cleansed' versions as a base for future performances.

I suggest you make written notes of what each of your base performances is designed for. Those notes will come in handy 3 years later when you can't remember exactly what they do.

Yes - it is a pain - but you only have to do it once and it will save you many times over when something like that example I gave earlier rears its head.

You aren't misunderstanding anything - it is a steep learning curve but the closer you get to the top the better the view!

Thank you Jason and Toby for your help.  But continuing the conversation, here is another question.  If I take a performance and remove some parts from that performance, will any of those empty slots retain tweaked parameters that could "fight" with the parameters of a new replacement part brought in?

Have you ever heard the phrase - 'be careful what you ask for'? Imagine that the narrator for Rod Serling wrote the forward to the Montage doc.

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead - your next stop, the Twilight Zone!

That is not as far off the mark as you might think.

For a level 1 answer a magic 8 ball might give you one of its simple answers: 'It is decidedly so'

At level 2 the core of issue is that when you load a performance the OS does NOT initialize the entire edit buffer. It simply overwrites part of the existing contents with the content that you load. I'll provide a detailed example later but if you load a 16 part performance and then load a 1 part performance the data for those other 16 parts will still be in the edit buffer even though those parts are NOT part of the new performance you loaded.

For that 'part' issue it isn't so much of a problem since there is no ON/OFF functionality on the instrument to turn a part on or off. Just FYI - you CAN use a SysEx command to turn a part on or off - in which case your 1 part performance would now include that part and its data from the previous 16 part performance.

The issue is more at the 'element/operator' level. There is NO 'delete' functionality for an element - there is an ON/OFF switch. A standard AWM2 part ALWAYS has at least 8 elements even if their ON/OFF is OFF. Their configuration will be in the same state it was in when each element was last configured for that part.

When designers create a preset they may configure any number of elements and then decide that they don't want to use some of them after all. Since there is NOT any way to DELETE or INITIALIZE an element they set the element switch to OFF before they save, and deliver the preset to Yamaha.

Surprise quiz #1: what will be the content of an OFF element if you turn it ON?

M models now support up to 128 elements per part but only if the 'Ex Elem Sw' is ON - that switch is on the General / Pitch -> Element Settings screen when you edit the common area for a part.

That opens up the possibility that a preset designer had configured up to 128 elements for a part and then turned OFF any, or even all, of those elements.

Surprise quiz #2: what will be the content of an extended OFF element if you turn it ON?

Congratulations if your answer was 'the content will be however the creator left it'.

No need for anyone to read any further unless you want the gory details of how to test this for yourself - which I really advise you to do as it will drive the point home in a way you aren't likely to forget.

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Preset performances can, and do, have leftover garbage parts and elements that are NOT part of the performance itself. In other words you can NOT rely on an unused part/element to have a 'default' configuration or to even have a known configuration. The INIT performances are NOT an exception.

To see the issue at the part level do the following:

1. load INIT Multi / GM - a 16 part performance
2. load INIT NORMAL (AWM2) - it only has one part
3. Edit part 1 - 'General / Pitch -> Part Settings'
4. Notice the parameters - and the category, sub category and part name
5. Select part 2 - this is NOT part of the performance and on the home screen would show a '+' sign
6. But on the edit screen you can see the parms from part 2 of the INIT GM performance.
7. What you see on the edit screen for part 2 will be the part 2 from whatever the last performance was
that actually had a part 2.
8. Not so much of a problem since there is no 'Part Switch' you can turn ON using the touchscreen or keyboard. There actually IS a part switch and you CAN use SysEx to turn it ON. This part, in all its glory, will now be part of the performance.

Now for the element level issue

Elements (all 128 of them) DO have an element switch you can turn ON. But if you do turn one on to add it to your part it, too, will bring along its previous configuration and the following is an example of what can happen.

1. Load the Solo 1stViolin AF1' performance fresh
2. Mute part 2
3. Mute elements 1 and 2 of part 1
4. Play ANY note and you will get no sound since both elements are muted

Now, let's say you want to add element 3 to this part

1. Edit part 1 and select element 3
2. On the Osc / Tune screen notice that the element switch is OFF so this element is NOT part of the performance yet
3. Notice also the waveform is 'Viola2 St Offset' - so you think this might be a good one to use
4. turn the element switch ON
5. Now the problems begin - what problems you say?
6. Play middle C (C3) - sounds good
7. Play F3 (the F above middle C
8. Huh? what happened to the volume?
9. Play G3 - or ANY higher note - no sound at all - what happened?
10. Play F2 (the F below middle C - sounds ok
11. Play C2 - or ANY lower note - no sound at all - what happened?

The explanation is all there - but if you don't know what to look for you may NEVER find it or understand what is going on.

It's called 'steep learning curve'.

The problem is that the contents of element 3 are NOT part of this performance because the element switch is OFF. BUT element 3 (and elements 4 - 128) will have whatever contents they had when this performance was last saved by whoever designed/created this performance.

Here is what is going on.

1. Look at the Elem Note Limit parms at the bottom of the screen
2. C2 is the lowest note - G3 is the highest note
3. no note lower than C2 or higher than G3 will sound for this element - you would need to change those settings as needed to add this element to your
performance
4. Select 'Amplitude' from the left side and then 'Scale' from the second column
5. Whoever last worked with element 3 has configured amplitude scaling.
6. Breakpoint #1 - that -128 for C2 means offset the volume by -128 which will basically mean 0
Even if you change the Elem Note limit to include the lower part of the keyboard this element won't
sound because of the -128 offset to the volume.
7. Breakpoint #4 - same as #1 except it applies to G3 and above so no higher notes will sound either even
if you change the note limit.
8. Breakpoint #2 - G2 value is 0 - breakpoints 1 and 2 define a note range from C2 to G2 (G2,Gb2,F2,E2,Eb2,D2,Db2,C) and a volume offset range from 0 to
-128.
So for each of those 8 notes the volume will drop by -16 for every key you play down the keyboard
9. Breakpoint #3 - C3 (middle C) is 0 - breakpoints 2 and 3 define a note range from G2 to C3 with
a volume offset of 0 for the entire range - so the volume stays the same for keys in that range
10. Breakpoing #4 - G3 value is -128 so you can guess what happens to the volume as you play from
middle C up to G3 - the volume drops dramatically with each key. Then at G3 and higher volume is 0.

Morale of story - EVERY parameter in element 3 may have leftover settings that need to be cleaned out or adjusted if you decide to include the elment in your own performance.

If all you do is set the element 3 switch to ON you never know what parm settings you might be starting with.

Even worse - there is no such thing as 'RESET' to restore the element settings to some basic/normal set of values.

THE ABOVE APPLIES TO ALL ELEMENTS UP TO 128.

You need to copy an element from the INIT NORMAL (AWM2) performance by first adding the part from that performance to the performance you are building and then using 'Shift Edit' to copy a minimal element from the INIT part to the new  element you want to add.

Then you can alter that new 'default' element to your liking (e.g. selecting the waveform to use)

Sorry for the length but since adding elements to existing parts of presets is a fundamental part of creating your own performances I felt this type of thing needed a full description and explanation.

Welcome to the twilight zone!

Wow, Toby, thank you for the twilight zone.  I really appreciate the length of time spent on your answer.  I really owe you one!

-Phil

If you delete a Part and replace it with another Part there won't be any residue in the Part slot.   When you transplant Parts from one Performance to another what you need to consider are the Performance level settings that are shared among all Parts.

How Superknob interacts with a Part.  How Variation, Reverb, and Master effects interact with the Part.

The original Part where the content came from before the transplant probably uses different Variation/Reverb (aka System) effects.  If those effects were important to the sound then you'll have to deal with that.  There's only two effects so you'll have to decide how to manage merging Parts with two different sets of System Effects together (i.e. compromise).

Superknob offsets from the old Performance won't be transferred so you'll need to decide if you want to "tie in" the new Part or not.  And, if not, you'll need to possibly adjust the Part-level assignable knobs to "dial in" what the Superknob (SK) would have otherwise done in some position you would want to stick with.  It's possible that the new Performance doesn't make room for tying SK to the new Part.  So you may need to edit what's there removing existing controls to the other Parts in order to tie in the new Part.

M models now support up to 128 elements per part

whaoh, that is huge but number of voice are still limited….??? 😓 

Posted by: Phil

↑

I understand that I can find parts by sorting the green performances, but I was assuming that those parts had been tweaked,

Posted by: Jason

↑

There's no "untweaked" material unless you're building from scratch - meaning from built-in samples with no Performance data at all.

 

If you considered Voices in Motif XF to be the "untweaked" sounds then single-Part Performances is as close as you are going to get to this.

Yes, that last part is how I read this. To say there are "no untweaked sounds" you can recall is tantamount to saying that no keyboard has any patches that are untweaked sounds.  After all, every recallable factory patch on any sample-based keyboard has been programmed with parameters that are more than just raw wave playback, that's kind of what makes the board usable by most people in the first place. To me,"tweaked" means altered from stock factory parameters. Since all factory preset Performances cannot be overwritten (any "tweaked" versions are saved as separate, additional Performances), then simply selecting sounds using the "Preset" filter should give you all the "untweaked" (i.e. unaltered factory-provided) sounds, with single-part further restricting the selection to, well, single-part Performances. So yes, the equivalent of Motif XF Voices. Phil, when you say you don't want Performances that have been tweaked, are you looking for something different than that?

Phil, when you say you don't want Performances that have been tweaked, are you looking for something different than that?

I think you homed in on the right question to ask. He never did say exactly WHAT he did and WHY the result wasn't what he expected. That would be helpful to know.

As you said I don't know that you can call it 'tweaking' but as far as I am aware the only thing you can try to avoid is to use the choices you get when you use 'Param. with Part' and can choose Mixing, Arp/MS, Scene, Zone.

Even then that is only going to give decent results if the new part you choose is somewhat 'compatible' with the part you are replacing. And it isn't real clear just what incompatibilities can cause problems.

When a given piece/part is designed to interact with other pieces/parts you can't just arbitrarily replace that part without considering how it fits into the bigger picture. Unfortunately there isn't any documentation for the presets.

Not that it will ever happen but I suggested on IdeaScale a while back that Yamaha should:

1. create a simple matrix listing the various functional components

2. have the sound designers provide completed matrix with check marks for each component they use.

At least it would give us a head start before having to do a deep dive to try to extract that info.