[quotePost id=123151][quotePost id=123150]
That is always a mystery! FDSP has so much unexplored potential, it was criminal why it only ever appeared in the EX5.
[/quotePost]
Yet somehow the market proved Yamaha right, as the product(s) without it (Motif) were a much bigger success than the EX5.[/quotePost]

I think it proved that few people using keyboards cared much about how the sounds were created. If it sounded good, that was good enough. But not for me.

Also, I strongly believe that the EX5 was a great idea but a flawed diamond as it was slightly ahead of the DSP horsepower of the time (or the amount that Yamaha were prepared to put into it to meet a price point), which led to a lot of issues in Performance Mode - it was all fine for voice mode. That coupled with some severe bugs (like MIDI SYSEX corruption) that were never resolved, Yamaha also shot themselves in the foot with what I call "Stupid Quirks" that could have been easily avoidable, like a Performance mode that only allowed you to play two Parts from the keyboard. And the birth of the internet around the same time meant that bad press travelled fast and Yamaha were really stung by the critique.

Yamaha's reaction to that was the Motif, which IMO was severely dumbed down architecturally wise compared to the EX5, but exhibited fewer issues. In 2005 I added a Motif Rack ES to my rig at the time, but the EX5 kicked its ass in everything other than Organs (due to the better rotary effect in the ES that was more controllable).

Compared to the amazing period that gave us the EX5, FS1r, AN1x and VL1/VL70m the Motif might have satisfied the mass market, but what a come down compared to the amazing tech in what went before it. I know Yamaha kept some of it alive in the PLG cards you could add, but that in itself had a really flawed implementation. (I have PLG AN and VL in my ES rack, so I speak from experience).

I retired my two EX5 keyboards in 2017 and repaced with a Montage 7, but not before I sourced an EX5R to key the uniqueness of the EX5 in my studio.

All subjective and personal opinion of course.

I remember I per-ordered the EX5 and the day it was coming to the house I took off that afternoon. I ordered it from Guitar Center in Atlanta before Guitar Center was everywhere on the planet. It was literally falling out of the box at the front door even while on the delivery dolly. Gosh I think it only cost about $2,200 at that time. They could have doubled the processor and charged $3,200 IMO. The idea was brilliant but why make the call to underpower it which was very sad. It would have been legendary with double the DSP. Yamaha sold every expansion separately and it could receive Flash memory and SCSI and word clock and I/Os etc. Adding all of that was as much as the board cost if you bought those components new. Interesting ideas just needed a turbo charger.

[quotePost id=123168]
Compared to the amazing period that gave us the EX5, FS1r, AN1x and VL1/VL70m the Motif might have satisfied the mass market, but what a come down compared to the amazing tech in what went before it.[/quotePost]
That period was the worst, commercially, for Yamaha. None of that stuff sold well.
Interestingly enough, they seem to bring back that tech to the market, piece by piece, now that its time has come: first FMX, then ANX... maybe there's some FDSP in some future instrument...

[quotePost id=123170][quotePost id=123168]
Compared to the amazing period that gave us the EX5, FS1r, AN1x and VL1/VL70m the Motif might have satisfied the mass market, but what a come down compared to the amazing tech in what went before it.[/quotePost]
That period was the worst, commercially, for Yamaha. None of that stuff sold well.
Interestingly enough, they seem to bring back that tech to the market, piece by piece, now that its time has come: first FMX, then ANX... maybe there's some FDSP in some future instrument...[/quotePost]

I do not know the numbers, but would tend to agree, and I think it comes back to my point that the mass market didn't really care about this amazing technology and what it could do. The Motif was indeed the reaction to that. Sounded nice but boring, boring, boring. Like I said I have a Motif Rack ES when I needed to expand the simultaneous sounds I was doing on stage, but the EX5 (which I did know very well) was always the star.

I have always liked Yamaha, but in 2014, I gave up waiting for Yamaha to do anything other than a rehash of the Motif and went to the Dark Side with a Korg Kronos, which was really interesting with all its different sound engines, Karma, etc. 12 years on and AL-1 is still amazing analog synth engine, so I hope AN-X will complement that or better it.

[quotePost id=123173]
I have always liked Yamaha, but in 2014, I gave up waiting for Yamaha to do anything other than a rehash of the Motif and went to the Dark Side with a Korg Kronos, which was really interesting with all its different sound engines, Karma, etc. 12 years on and AL-1 is still amazing analog synth engine, so I hope AN-X will complement that or better it.[/quotePost]
When I was researching the Kronos, Montage, MODX, etc. back in 2018 I remember a lot of people on the Korg forums talking about Karma on the Kronos. The way they described it sounded like a combination of ARPs and Motion Sequencing on the Montage. This may be too broad of a question, but what is Karma and is it much different than ARPs and Motion Sequencing?

Second question, anyone know why Korg would choose to leave it out of the Nautilus?

what is Karma and is it much different than ARPs and Motion Sequencing?

KARMA ® (Kay Algorithmic Realtime Music Architecture) Technology

Yes - I know how much people sometimes hate references to manuals but in this case that is really the best source of a lot of DETAILED info about what it is and how to use it.

This is the operation guide:
https://cdn.korg.com/us/support/download/files/2fd1d54ad1f6f5e32caa8f5cd622e565.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%2A%3DUTF-8%27%27KRONOS_Op_Guide_E10.pdf&response-content-type=application%2Fpdf%3B

See the Using KARMA chapter for the details

Overview - What is KARMA?
KARMA stands for Kay Algorithmic Realtime Music
Architecture, named after its inventor, Stephen Kay.
KARMA generates MIDI data, using many different
algorithms seamlessly integrated to provide a powerful
“music generation engine.” Based on the notes and chords
you play, KARMA creates phrases and patterns in real-time,
generating not just notes but MIDI control data as well. The
KARMA architecture allows the various algorithms to be
reconfigured and varied in realtime, as you play them

There is also extensive 'off instrument' software available by the company that created KARMA
https://www.karma-lab.com/karmasoft/kk/kk_main.html

And Stephen Kay is the well-known musician that started it all
https://www.karma-lab.com/people/skay.html

[quotePost id=123174][quotePost id=123173]
I have always liked Yamaha, but in 2014, I gave up waiting for Yamaha to do anything other than a rehash of the Motif and went to the Dark Side with a Korg Kronos, which was really interesting with all its different sound engines, Karma, etc. 12 years on and AL-1 is still amazing analog synth engine, so I hope AN-X will complement that or better it.[/quotePost]
When I was researching the Kronos, Montage, MODX, etc. back in 2018 I remember a lot of people on the Korg forums talking about Karma on the Kronos. The way they described it sounded like a combination of ARPs and Motion Sequencing on the Montage. This may be too broad of a question, but what is Karma and is it much different than ARPs and Motion Sequencing?

Second question, anyone know why Korg would choose to leave it out of the Nautilus?[/quotePost]

The best way to think of KARMA is as a very intelligent arpeggiator that responds to how you play, and there are many parameters you can control.

@Darryl, check out Moessieurs site. https://www.moessieurs.com/index.php

He's very knowledgeable and has been using Karma for years. I tried it on my Motif and was impressed with what could be achieved, but ultimately found I had to put in to much time for the results. Still pretty cool software.

https://karma-lab.com/karmasoft/kmo/kmo_main.html

[quotePost id=123176]
The best way to think of KARMA is as a very intelligent arpeggiator that responds to how you play, and there are many parameters you can control. [/quotePost]
Interesting stuff ... Kinda sounds like something that's AI driven. Since AI seems to be the hot topic for future things, I wonder if one of the synth designers will introduce an intelligent arpeggiator/motion sequencer/etc. that uses AI technology..!? Perhaps something like Karma, but taking it to the next level and maybe making it easier to adjust/program utilizing AI..!?

[quotePost id=123175]

what is Karma and is it much different than ARPs and Motion Sequencing?

KARMA ® (Kay Algorithmic Realtime Music Architecture) Technology

Yes - I know how much people sometimes hate references to manuals but in this case that is really the best source of a lot of DETAILED info about what it is and how to use it.

This is the operation guide:
[/quotePost]
Thanks for the deets! 😉

[quotePost id=123170]That period was the worst, commercially, for Yamaha. None of that stuff sold well.
Interestingly enough, they seem to bring back that tech to the market, piece by piece, now that its time has come: first FMX, then ANX... maybe there's some FDSP in some future instrument...[/quotePost]
Yeah it kind of seems like Roland, Korg, Yamaha and all the other synths companies, softsynths, polysynths, MPE are driving more innovations like those forward into synth products, as Yamaha appear to be adding more engines back to their synths (assuming AN-X is on the new Montage M) and possibly other innovations from the past.

Second question, anyone know why Korg would choose to leave it out of the Nautilus?

Stephen Kay, the creator of Karma, answered that himself in his reply in this forum
https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/showthread.php?p=116669
The question was

Korg Nautilus ?????? WTF ?
It just seems like a bad joke ....

Stephen are you definitely mad with Korg?

And the reply

I'm not "mad" at them. However, the partnership has ended (actually it ended awhile ago...). New leadership and management at Korg, with the desire to no longer continue previous third-party relationships. I have nothing to say about it; we could continue to work together if they were interested, but they are not. So it was great while it lasted.

[quotePost id=123177]He's very knowledgeable and has been using Karma for years. I tried it on my Motif and was impressed with what could be achieved, but ultimately found I had to put in to much time for the results. Still pretty cool software.
[/quotePost]
Yeah you can often do great things if you put the time and effort into them.
As I mentioned in the post above, it would be interesting if Yamaha or one of the big players started introducing AI based programming/editing for things like this, or even just to program/adjust/edit sounds. Just using your voice even:

"Montage. Open Performance 'CFX Stage Piano'. Copy PART1 to PART2. No, Undo. Copy PART1 to PART3. Edit PART3. Add Insert A Effect with Delay..." 😮 😉

[quotePost id=123182]
Stephen Kay, the creator of Karma, answered that himself in his reply in this forum
https://forums.karma-lab.com/forum/showthread.php?p=116669
[/quotePost]
Maybe Yamaha will start working with Stephen Kay, and rebrand it as 'MO KARMA' :p
Something like that could potentially sway a number of Kronos die-hards to switch to a Montage M..!? 😉
Knowing Yamaha, they might offload something like that to be programmed more easily on a PC/MAC based DAW via a new 'Mo KARMA' tab in Montage Connect..!?

I bought a Kronos and it just sat on the stand. Was essentially a computer in a keyboard box and mine had a fan running and took a long to boot up. I never connected with it and can't remember anything about it. Obviously any architecture that is software based can do anything the software and hardware will allow it to do.

I remember the waves were massive files. It was probably a great studio & production tool same as any computer but if the processor hung up during a performance you'd be screwed. That was the fear I think because my 3 computers on my desk crash or freeze up all the time. Something about it didn't feel right. I guess we all connect to different things differently.

Same principle as a video gaming system, it's a specialized computer and if the "engine" is software it has more potential because the software can be changed or upgraded or expanded easily. I don't know what Karma is except "good or bad" but MPE can turn each of your fingers into independent real time envelope controllers.

Will "no touch screen ever!" Yamaha finally convert to software based architecture?