[quotePost id=123101]
Montage, IMO, had two truly innovative features and those had nothing to do with the engines.
One was the focus on modulation/control and the other (the most important IMO) was integration with the DAW: being used as an audio interface and being integrated just like a VST into the DAW via Montage Connect, which made it even unnecessary to save the patches in the board. One can work with the Montage/MODX in a DAW almost as seamless as with a soft synth.
[/quotePost]
Prior to reading this, I was actually thinking about how Yamaha's roadmap for the Montage was an innovation in that they made a revolutionary leap to offload onboard functionality to a DAW (i.e. Sequencing, Sampler & Montage Connect, etc.), downgrading the product status from a Workstation to a Synth, and extending the hardware by providing OS updates instead of releasing hardware synths more often. Even Roland changed to that type of roadmap with the Fantom by strategically releasing new features...

So my thought is that in the spirit of "something none of you have thought of" (& "innovation") and keeping in line with the roadmap of offloading things to a DAW, it might make sense that with the Montage M they have offloaded more programming/editing functionality to a DAW to make it easier, more user friendly than just menu diving on a small touch screen, especially with how people will be able to program the AN-X engine sounds, and possibly have more visuals, graphs, waveshapes, etc. Therefore I think they could be planning to use the application to connect to a Yamaha "AI" system from the Montage M &/or through an enhanced Montage Connect (or even an entirely new DAW application) that is the primary app on a PC or MAC for programming AN-X, FM-X2?, AWM3, etc., whereby this computer app is also the connection point between the Montage M and new Yamaha cloud based "AI" system..!?
Maybe the M stands for Modeling Application (or Modulation Application) on the DAW that can be used as mentioned above..!?

Some might like more computer applications and interfacing but I prefer just me and the hardware and an expressive keyboard. For music production that's great but I'm not really into that. I'll stick with the modules, desktops and the MPE Osmose.

[quotePost id=123108]
Anyway, just wanted to mention Yamaha's recent patent covering keyboard control of articulations and such. Might be their take on Roli Rise-like control. What caught my eye, at first, is the list of inventors -- some of Yamaha's most prolific including the chap who managed the Montage gen 1 development. Of course, patented tech doesn't necessarily get into product...
[/quotePost]
Worth remembering that one of the most active ideas on IdeaScale, and one that was actually initiated by Yamaha themselves, is called "If we made a CS-80..."

Black Corp. has the CS80 clone currently and Behringer has been making another one. A real analog clone isn't cheap enough to put inside a Montage. They could however model the primary voice components of it as part of the ANx inclusion.

We often forget that we are talking about a workstation that continues to be called Montage, with an extra M.
I don't think there will be a lot of new features at all but only an expansion of what is present in Montage and, obviously, backwards compatibility: the AN-X will be the main new feature thanks to the new small screen on the left. Obviously an increase in flash (in my opinion 8 Giga divided between User and ROM) and, I hope, polyphony. I would also exclude the HD SSD M.2 + streaming samples route which would be the real innovation in the AWM2 field. For FM-X, we hope stereophony will arrive at operator level.
I really don't think there will be a tonewheel emulation (the ninth drawbar is missing and there would be an overlap with the YC stage) and in my opinion there will also be a lack of full Virtual Resonance Modeling (VRM) (there would be an overlap of pianos such as the upcoming P525).
I hope I'm wrong but I don't think we'll see the much requested multisynthesis engine with physical modeling, granular synthesis and wavetables synthesis: I'm afraid we'll have to wait another 7 years 🙁
I hope Yamaha inserts polyphonic aftertouch like many of the competition is doing (Waldorf, Hydrasynth, Native Instruments,...)

[quotePost id=123142]I don't think there will be a lot of new features at all but only an expansion of what is present in Montage and, obviously, backwards compatibility: the AN-X will be the main new feature thanks to the new small screen on the left.[/quotePost]
The Site Admin 'Saul' of the www.yamahamusicians.com forum said just two weeks ago that he was rapidly losing interest in the new Montage replacement, but recently he received some insider information whereby he was told something in confidence which he cannot share on the forum, but said "this new Montage M release next month is going to be a LOT more interesting than we thought it would be", followed by "it has definitely increased my interest, and if you have read how I feel about this whole thing, that might give you some indication that this release is a whole lot more than we all envisaged" and then added later "It is definitely something none of you have thought of".

None of us know what the new Montage M is going to be, but Saul does, and for him to go from zero to 100% interest in it, and say what he did must mean that it's a Revolutionary synth that will be far more than just the Montage with an AN-X engine added... 😉

As I stated over at the Yamaha Musicians forum, I wouldn't bet the farm on what the administrator Saul says. He was wrong about the FDGP-50/30, which he insisted would be guitars. If Saul has inside knowledge about Yamaha products, why was he so sure the FDGP-50/30 were guitars, when in reality, they are finger drum pads? Plus, in the short time I've been a member over there, he's been wrong about other things yet refuses to change his position even when confronted with the truth. Furthermore, if he does know what the "M" in the new Montage stands for, what is the crime in letting his members know? Or the whole world for that matter? The truth is, getting the word out would further engage the music community, and I would expect it would also generate even more excitement from musicians on what they could expect from Yamaha's newest Flagship. By keeping it secret, Saul could simply wait until the official launch and after finding out himself what the "M" stands for simply tell people he knew what it was all along, and proclaim, see I told you! Don't be so easily persuaded when someone tells you something. Especially when the person's batting average is in the single digits. I say that with all due respect because Saul seems like a really nice person. But he comes across as a smarty-pants, which is disappointing since the website itself is a great resource for musicians world over.

The trend in all the grove machines on the market like the Force and even some synths are plug-in ready, stand alone ready or jack of many trades. It's likely some technology commonly available &/or MIDI 2 most of which we have already guessed. Saul said he's already mentioned what it is or clues in his past wants and needs so It can't be something no one has ever thought about since he's already mentioned it in the past. My friend always asked about individual audio outs per channel for as long as I can remember. 8 or 16 stereo outs would be interesting. So if you must know what it is go read all his threads and it should be somewhat obvious. "M" is likely modeling if I had to guess and then if it is modeling then it's probably also MPE, poly or MIDI2 to control what modeling can do. The Osmose was introduced back in 2019 so the technology is old news and yet it's newer and more expressive plus many as mentioned are poly at least. So I doubt Yamaha will be releasing a subpar system to everything that is currently available.

I had posted how boring the thread was, only speculation mostly and not many cared about what was coming and all of the sudden we got insider information. Does raise curiosity concerning the timing of it. Is the secret information true? Probably but is it revolutionary?, that I'd be surprised. I think the speculations of improvements we all wanted vs a fundamental change is all that is happening here. I think something fundamental will be changed likely it's modeling and MPE type controls.

"M" = Modeling
"M" = Module (new form factor thus photos are fake)
"M" = Masterpiece like a center hub for all your gear
"M" = Multi or Multiple separate systems
"M" = MIDI 2 advanced MIDI controller technology
"M" = Montage Mirroring system
"M" = Master Controller
"M" = Macro system
"M" = Megamind

I will point out that there's so much competition that Yamaha will remain on par unless they introduce something rather fantastic. Else it won't flip many other brand users. Generally I suppose they simply attempt to retain the uses they have and hope for some converts. Some of us buy everything but that's probably not many.

I've read the thread over there - so I am aware of the various discussions that have come up in that 20+ page thread.

What I see (and I see it here too - some of the same members) is an (in my opinion) unjustified sense of entitlement. Specifically, I do not believe there is any "contract" or common practice that says a company must signal what a product is before it is available to purchase. The responsibility is that once a product is available in stores that there is sufficient information (for this kind of product, at least) for a consumer to evaluate what they will be getting. Videos, manuals, demo units in stores, etc.

Until that time, these long-winded and sometimes threatening monologues about how Yamaha should do this or that to serve the curiosity of the author is misplaced.

I do think it's sometimes fun to speculate about what's to come based on clues and tea leaves. However, I don't feel slighted in the least to be kept in the dark until the product is released. Even if I was clamoring for a replacement of my Montage (I'm not - so I'm probably where Saul said he was previously in terms of drive to get the new version) I would not feel slighted. I'm going to have to spend the same amount of time after the official release getting a hands-on look at the instrument with or without advance information.

Slightly tangential ...

I have a Native Instruments MIDI controller - SL61 MK2. A few days ago the SL series MK3 was announced and is ready for preorder on NI's website. One of the features is polyphonic aftertouch. If I knew the follow-on Montage had a polyphonic aftertouch capable keybed - then that would help inform if I should get an $850ish 61 key "dumb" MIDI controller or get the Montage follow-on and leave the controller alone.

Even still, as I see competitive gear emerge that could be "distracting" from the Montage follow-on, I don't feel like Yamaha must reveal anything. I'm going to leave it up to them to decide what to reveal based on market conditions and their own internal strategies.

I wouldn't mind more (credible, detailed, quantity of ...) "leaks" - I just have no expectation that there must be more detailed information. At least not before the official announcement.

I know what Jason is saying and obviously we can't impact the process. It's been 7 years, way abnormally too long and the product month has been announced. Yamaha might have leaked the photos, we'll see if it's the same, they had no reaction. That can mean opposite things so it tells us nothing really. Like I mentioned I got tired of waiting and spent thousands on other gear. I was only pointing out to Yamaha that dragging this out doesn't help them. Musicians want gear and we want it now and the competition is unlimited so they don't really hold many cards. Unless they might think it will be a let down why not say here it is now? I don't really follow other brands this closely so perhaps they do it the same way but I'm probably 50%/50% on getting/keeping it etc. Waiting has so many advantages even until years later because Yamaha is slow about updates/upgrades/fixes anyway. I think they could officially release a HD photo of it if what we have is not fake or a cut sheet. Since we have seen two separate leaks, one in the box and one on a screen AND at relatively the same time they do appear to confirm one another. For now I think this is what we should assume that it will look like.

[quotePost id=123146]A few days ago the SL series MK3 was announced and is ready for preorder on NI's website. One of the features is polyphonic aftertouch. If I knew the follow-on Montage had a polyphonic aftertouch capable keybed - then that would help inform if I should get an $850ish 61 key "dumb" MIDI controller or get the Montage follow-on and leave the controller alone. [/quotePost]
In this particular case, you *will* know, because the NI devices will only be shipping from 31st of October.

Yeah, sort of my whole point is that we will know when we're supposed to anyhow. I understand what you're saying about the reality of the releases to the street - but I get a sense that those complaining are not doing this based on any rational reality to begin with.

The criticism and demands surrounding what Yamaha should message about unreleased products is largely misplaced.

If anyone, as an individual, feels that advance details of a product is your right and your decision to purchase hinges (in part) to this advance notice .... then by all means, make your choices as you will with any criteria you want. You could also express that's how you roll (for your own personal purchasing decision). That's fine. It's when there are accusations of Yamaha doing something "wrong" in a broader sense that I start to disagree.

Still, I'm not here to police anything. Respectful discourse is all good even when I don't agree.

... although I'm fine with sidebars and off-topic conversation in a thread: pivoting back to the original topic ...

I saw the Music Production Guide and noticed the AN article before any other discussion surrounding this emerged. I always think it's interesting when Yamaha (or 3rd parties close to Yamaha) release synthesizer information. I thought a while back when "every" vintage Yamaha synth under the sun was getting a video with Dom demonstrating. I thought the discussions on the Behind The Synth series were interesting when they covered, in extreme detail, these vintage boxes. All that said, I don't necessarily believe any of those articles, videos, and publications are proof of anything to come. Maybe some of these older technologies will resurface - maybe they won't. The AN article was interesting (including timing, surrounding trademark registrations, etc), but not any conclusive evidence of what Montage is to become.

I did previously gig with an EX5R as my main gear. The keyboard I was using at the time had some of its own sounds and I would use some of them - but mostly the EX5R. Even though there were limitations - the choices of tone engine was great and I definitely, at the time, used the modeled analog stuff. I may have used FDSP. Certainly AWM. Not so much of the VL, though just because of the sounds I was going after and what VL presets were available. At the time I hardly did any programming on the EX5R.

So I'd love to see another swiss-army-knife approach to the next keyboard. AN would be great - it's the kind of stuff I previously gravitated to and now use FM-X for similar sounds (due primarily how portamento works in both AN and FM). Any other tone engines would be great including old tech (FS1R formants, DX7 glissando where pitch bend goes in tonal steps rather than smooth, FDSP, VL, GS style algorithms for FM or just the ability to customize, feedback on every operator like Reface DX, more waveforms for FM like various choices involved in the past, RCM like the YS series, modeled organ like YC, sympathetic resonance like the older CPs, etc ...). But, and in keeping with how Yamaha usually does things, I'd also like to see some new stuff. Not necessarily just regurgitated old tech with a better DAC but something new I didn't know I wanted.

I personally don't know why Yamaha leaves so much great past stuff on the table - but that's the tradition.

[quotePost id=123149]

I personally don't know why Yamaha leaves so much great past stuff on the table - but that's the tradition. [/quotePost]

That is always a mystery! FDSP has so much unexplored potential, it was criminal why it only ever appeared in the EX5.

I still do not understand why FM-X is only half an FS1r, and so on.

I am really keen to see a resurrection of AN in the new Montage, so I am praying that my gut feeling is correct (as possibly hinted by that Production Guide article).

I had my AN1x on the other day for the first time in a while - had to replace that battery (why oh why a CR2450, not a CR2032?) and was reminded as to how great it sounds

[quotePost id=123150]
That is always a mystery! FDSP has so much unexplored potential, it was criminal why it only ever appeared in the EX5.
[/quotePost]
Yet somehow the market proved Yamaha right, as the product(s) without it (Motif) were a much bigger success than the EX5.

They were different creations with somewhat different markets. EX5 was everything in one plus some not trying to be a Motif but more of a buffet of history and modern evolution. 3 wheels too which wasn't normal and never happened again. Maybe VL had it too but in a totally different price bracket. EX5 was that transition piece and very unique. The masses wanted the Mofit type piece or workstation music designer type board. You can't compare them really. The unpowered EX5 probably did too much and couldn't handle it which wasn't so popular either. I hoped that the Montage "M" was going to be a resurrection and culmination of a modern EX5 probably before the name release thinking it might be a Montage "EX". That was extended synthesis so maybe Mx is MultiX-synthesis adopting the "x" from EX.