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Any reason there aren't any numbers relating to the performance presets? Like Bank 6, Preset 85 etc?

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I cannot find any answers to this question anywhere. Is it just a case of changing an option somewhere?

 
Posted : 08/10/2016 8:12 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Welcome to YamahaSynth!

Actually each Performance has a Bank and either a Preset/User or Library Program location number.
In general, however, CATEGORY SEARCH is the most efficient way to navigate Montage. Details follow:

Recall the very first Preset Performance: "CFX + FM EP"
From the Home screen (cursor highlighting the Performance Name) touch the Performance Name
A pop-in menu appears
Select "Property"
Here you will be given the Bank and Program information for this Performance.

Unlike the previous synths (Motif/MOXF series) where the User Banks contained "placeholder" Programs which you overwrote, the Montage only documents a Performance location if you have actually created data for it. This streamlines the system. (Besides many user never wanted to overwrite the factory "placeholders" - in spite of all assurances they were data repeated from the presets!!!)

When you store a Performance in Montage if you started with a Factory Preset, it is wriiten to the lowest numbered empty User location. If you start with a previous stored User Performance you can overwrite the current or target a new Performance location (next available empty location).

Each Performance can have as many as sixteen unique Parts. If you've only created one USER Performance your User file will only contain that one Performance. A maximum of 640 Performances can exist in the User memory.

In Motif XF, for example, if you only create one Performance, the file would contain your 1 plus 511 "placeholders"
In Montage because each of the 16 Parts could contain unique data, it is not only more efficient to store only what you use, it's just a quicker, faster and neater system. It only saves data you've (actually) created.

How it works
Instead of going through a Bank button system (as previously) the "Category Search" feature allows you to define what items you see in the listing. For example, if you want to see/select from only Performances in your current USER Bank:
From the HOME screen
Press [CATEGORY SEARCH]
Set the BANK setting = User
Main = All
The listing will only show all items in your current User memory.

If you want to see an overview or wish to manage the content in your current User memory.
Press [UTILITY]
Touch "Contents" > "Data Utility"
Touch the "Performance" folder
It will indicate how many out of the 640 you have occupied.

It is the contents of the User memory that can installed to Montage's Library area. 640 User Performances, can be written (installed) into a Montage (Read Only Memory) LIBRARY memory. Eight Libraries can be installed.

Hope that helps. Thanks for the question

 
Posted : 08/10/2016 8:47 pm
 Phil
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While Category Search may be an efficient way to navigate it is not perhaps the quickest way of accessing performances. Coming from a Motif XS I can see Steve's point. With the Motif you chose where to store your voices so conversely could quickly recall them eg User 1 A 1 - 3 button pushes - there you were. However flexible Category Search is (and I can fully see the advantages of filtering) the fact remains it is still a Search function rather than an access function.

This is really where Live Sets come in as here you do have the option of specifying a location of sorts (of course the performance location itself hasn't changed but rather the live set slot points to it). You can then use the front panel to call the slot up - User Bank 1-8, Page 1-16, Slot 1-16.

 
Posted : 08/10/2016 10:32 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I don't think the original poster was making a "point", Steve was simply asking where the Bank and Program numbers were found. Either way, that's how it works now. And as you point out (if you are stuck in the old school methods of locating data) place your custom User Performances in your own custom Live Sets.

It's not that Category Search is efficient, it's the way Montage backs up data that is efficient! First USER FILE I made was 98KB
Compare that with a basic Motif XF file!

 
Posted : 09/10/2016 12:08 am
natalini
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
 

as performances do have a number why is it not displayed with the name ?
that is the ' strange' point.

 
Posted : 09/10/2016 6:20 am
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New Member
 

Natali is pretty right. And try to tell an external devision to switch a performance on montage, or a part in a multi-performance: you always HAVE to send a bank msb/lsb/programchange info! Does your masterkeyboard send this when sending a programchange?
I had the idea to take my favourite performances into the user-bank, set the montage to not receive bank-select and then switch the performances from outside by only sending program-changes without any bank-information so the montage should stay in the "user"-bank and only changes my voices there. Unfortunately this seems to be impossible, the montage alwys changes to bank "0" even without any order to do this!
The same within a multi-performance for MIDI-multirecording: changing the program-no from the inspector of cubas/logic WITHOUT sending any bank and not allowing the montage to receive any bank always switches the part to a voice in bank no "0"!
I cannot understand this system.
If I tell the synth: do NOT react of bank-changes, tell Logic: do NOT send any bank-change, then switch the montage to "user" and send him a program-change only it should be a MUST for the synth to NOT change the bank but only swith WITHIN the selected bank.
Any other reaction is totally not understandable for me!

- SAMM -

 
Posted : 09/10/2016 11:53 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I cannot understand this system.

Sorry it is beyond your understanding. Not sure what to say to that, that would seem snarky. The way it works is not so different. It maybe new to some. We've established that. Sorry your old way of working doesn't work. I don't see any advantage in it, compared to how Montage currently works, only that it is different.

Does your masterkeyboard send this when sending a programchange?

Yes, and any board considering itself worthy of being a "Master Keyboard" will send both Bank Select and Program Change. Without Bank Select, you limit yourself to just 128 sounds. The Montage comes with 1920 Performances in the Factory Set, and each User/Library has 640 of their own. So yes, if your master keyboard does not send Bank Select, it will not be sufficient to work with Montage. Sorry.

I'm sure that it does, on Montage we take advantage of Bank Select because of the number of programs, obviously. Please use it if your goal is to remotely recall a program. Rather than engaging in a discussion about how you or I (for that matter) think it theoretically should work, if you are having an issue recalling a specific sound, I understand how this works and would be happy to help you create the Bank Select message you require.

Frankly, I've not really tested your method, because to my understanding of the architecture, the BANK SELECT portion is critical, because not only can you address the entire Performance, but you can address individual Parts within a Performance. And that differentiation requires the proper Bank Select message prior to the Program Change event.

Getting answers to "How do you... " questions is the role of this site.
"Home come" questions, not so much.

Let us know if we can be of help.

 
Posted : 09/10/2016 12:18 pm
Jason
Posts: 7912
Illustrious Member
 

For user performances, you can use the "Main" and "Sub" categories (Main: Piano, Keyboard, Organ, etc; Sub: Acoustic, Layer, Modern, etc) to organize your performances for quick recall by button which "mimics" the previous organization where a performance could be recalled with 3 button presses (only with Montage it would take 5 instead of 3 for user.

Assumes starting from "Home" (or place other than category search)

1.1) Press [CATEGORY SEARCH] (should be showing Bank: All)
1.2) Press [CATEGORY SEARCH] (should be showing Bank: Preset)
1.3) Press [CATEGORY SEARCH] (should be showing Bank: User) -- steps 1-2 are the extra steps to select the "User" bank vs. a single key
1.4) Press Number A [1]-[16] (aka PART SELECT 1/1 through 8/16 - which also have the dark Blue main category labels Piano, Keyboard, etc)
Note: for your user voices instead of using these (meaning assigning the main category) as "Piano" or "Organ" or ... you can think of this as a letter A-P. 1=Piano=A, 2=Keyboard=B.
1.5) Press Number B [1]-[8] (aka MOTION SEQ SELECT area buttons) to select the user performance - instead of sub-category, you can think of this as a number 1-8

Example:

I have 4 user performances total and want to optimize for the 5-button-press recall which mimics the "old way". The names of the performance are "User One", "User Two", "User Three", and "User Four".

2.1) I setup "User One" as main category "Piano" and sub category "Acoustic" - This maps to "USER:A:1"
2.2) I setup "User Two" as main category "Piano" and sub category "Layer" - This maps to "USER:A:2"
2.3) I setup "User Three" as main category "Keyboard" and sub category "Acoustic" - This maps to "USER:B:1"
Note: choosing this just to show using a different "letter". Reminder: the letter is purely a virtual construct. I am defining Main category "Piano" to MEAN "A" and Main category "Keyboard" to MEAN "B" - but there is no such meaning assigned in Montage.
2.4) I setup "User Four" as main category "Keyboard" and sub category "Jazz/World" - This maps to "USER:B:8"

Now when I want to recall any one of these 4 user performances, I follow steps 1.1) - 1.3) to set "USER" then:
For "User One": press Number A [1], then Number B [1] (recalls USER:A:1)
-or-
For "User Two": press Number A [1], then Number B [2] (recalls USER:A:2)
-or-
For "User Three" press Number A [2], then Number B [1] (recalls USER:B:1)
-or-
For "User Four" press Number A [2], then Number B [8] (recalls USER:B:8)

Keep in mind that doing this "blows away" the meaning of the Main category and Sub category ("Piano" will not be assigned to Pianos necessarily unless you only have 8 user performances that would be considered "Piano" - and certainly the Sub category of "Acoustic" vs "Layer" vs .... will not line up). I am here suggesting to re-purpose the Main and Sub categories as an index for performance recall instead of having any meaning as labelled by the Montage.

It also means that you cannot have any more than one performance set to a Main+Sub Category combination or you will introduce another button press (or touchscreen press) to recall the performance. Which would be to use Number C [1]-[8]

The 5-button-press method works up to 128 user performances.

The 6-button-press method can access all (>128) user performances

Note: I'm not assigning any judgement on use of this idea - but Montage does allow (at the expense of two button presses) a way to mimic the "old way" for user voices if you are intentional in use of the Main and Sub categories. So if this has utility in your workflow - use it. If it doesn't make sense for you (too much work, or loss of main/sub category meanings is too expensive) - ignore it.

Also note that another difference is that as you are selecting the new performance using this method - the performance change does not wait for the final selection. On the MO6, for example, as you pressed User1:A:4 - the performance did not get recalled until you pressed the "4". Pressing "User 1" would start a blinking pattern, "A" would continue the blinking pattern - showing nothing has changed yet - and not until you press the "4" did anything change. With this method, performance changes start with the very first [CATEGORY SEARCH] press.

If you want - you can "think" of Sub category as letters "A"-"H" and Main category as numbers "1"-"16" which would more match previous gear. How you internally think of the mapping is up to you.

Another cost of this method: it also effectively breaks SSS. Since in order to "get" to your destination performance - you have to "pass through" several other performances to get there, the SSS buffer will be replaced with the intermediate performances. This is similar to lots of other methods of calling up the next performance which also break SSS.

(Yamaha Firmware Enhancement Note - targeting Yamaha ) It may not be a bad idea to make the Category search performance while scrolling through the performances only update the non-active buffer. So say you are holding a chord with the current performance and go to category search - that you could press notes which are not held - and this would sound the new category search performance - and as you scrolled through different performances of the category search - it would continue to "lock" the current voice which has the held chord and only swap out the "background" buffer. This way, SSS would not break as scrolling through Category search - which would be helpful for more than just this situation. (end of firmware enhancement note )

 
Posted : 09/10/2016 7:48 pm
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Topic starter
 

I just loaded the free Bosendorfer piano bonus sample library and now it makes perfect sense to me. The user memories start at user memory 1 and there is a fantastic new Live Set entitled Bosendorfer. Now it saves me having to search through the entire synth in order to try and find the presets as they are exactly where I would expect them and not getting lost amongst other silly placeholders which, as you say, on previous synths, were just there for show. If I need Bank Select or PC information, I also know now where to go. Took some time but it's a great idea for performance management.

Thanks all for your input and answers and may you all enjoy this instrument for a long time to come! You'll probably need it!!!:D 😀

 
Posted : 13/10/2016 7:12 am
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