It's going to be difficult to overload the button with both transpose and octave indicators. Already, the flashing rate is a bit much to perceive. A few LEDs (standard round ones like the Part 1-8;Part 9-16;Element/Operator green LEDs would have been great - maybe a set of green for + octave(s) and a set of red for - octave(s) which would give an at-a-glance indication of which octave is set. This would free the lights on the buttons themselves to assume some other meaning such as transposition. However, there I'd probably prefer an 8(or 7)-segment LED display for key.

However, working more with what's available today - pressing shift to see if the keyboard is transposed is not a horrible design. I'd prefer there to be a small area on the top/status line of the touchscreen to show transposition. It's about as important as tempo - even more so if you do not have arps/motion control or other tempo-based behavior going on but do have transposition. Something like Eb- for the -9 semi-tone tranposition and Eb+ for the +3 semi-tone transposition. There's also a way to get enharmonics to work - but there's probably not a need to over-complicate. Just a transposed key display on the touchscreen would be much better even if the enharmonic does not match the user's personal preference.

This is where the angle of the screen and other feedback may be justified. Even so, I think the screen needs the transposed key display.

Oh - and maybe this is addressed in newer firmware. I still need to upgrade.

Totally agree. Any change in pitch (which is not embedded in the part) should be noticeable.

The current design is for Montage 6 / Tyros players. But when playing an 8 you don't need to transpose a full octave. But one does occasionally have to transpose one or few half notes. When this is applied there should be a warning light. Or at least should, when you switch the set-list to the next performance, there be some "auto-reset" option. If you forget to restore the original pitch it causes problems. The octave-warning light could just as well be lit on the single note transposition.

I think using the transpose button in half-lit mode would be great as an indicator... And the auto-reset option is also probably a very good idea. More important for me would be the ability to store the transpose state together with the performance. That would save me from tediously having to go through all parts individually. And it would also preserve the splits...

I agree - if note shift could be a setting for a live set slot (in the same way as it is for volume) that would be a timesaver. Incidentally does using the front panel transpose button leave split points intact? I think it also moves the split point too - note shift wouldn't but transpose does.

"Need" is a personal choice. MIDI maps to 40 more notes than an 88-note keyboard provides. So the extra area which can be reached with octave+/- even on an 88-note keyboard provides more virtual keys for servicing customized splits.

I would be with you if there were only 88 notes which MIDI provided, thus "boxing in" the keyboard's octave keys on the 88 as window dressing. However, they do function more than 1 octave in each direction - therefore having to deal with the overloading for even the Montage 8.

That said - if you never use the octave keys - then already any time the two buttons (either) is lit - then the keyboard is no longer in the key of C.

Right now, the manual reset is hold shift plus Transpose+ and Transpose-.

The auto reset suggestion (when changing performances) rubs both ways. Some may prefer how transpose is a global setting which doesn't get reset.

There are many possible ways to get this to work - probably already hours/weeks have been spent on going back and forth on how to manage what these two buttons do and how to convey the information they change.

I'm not sure if these buttons can be the dimmed value or not.

Even though this is a stretch on the perception scale - maybe the transpose can always be shown as a dim LED.

LED States:

Only octave down - no transpose:

Octave -1 = "bright" solid [OCTAVE -]
Octave -2 = "bright" blinking [OCTAVE -] Note: I believe the current 1x blink frequency is already too fast, should be set to 0.5x current
Octave -3 = "bright" 2x blinking [OCTAVE -] see above

Only transpose (down) - no octave change:

Transpose -1 through -11 = "dim" solid [OCTAVE -]

Octave down and Transpose -1 through -11 (aka Transpose -X) combined:

Octave -1 + Transpose -X = "pulse" between bright and dim at lowest rate
Octave -2 + Transpose -X = "pulse" between bright and dim at faster rate
Octave -3 + Transpose -X = "pulse" between bright and dim at fastest rate (this is why the slowest to fastest blink rates would need to be addjusted to freq=0.5 in order to perceive the bright-to-dim difference between on to totally off flashing. Too fast, and one would not tell the difference between bright to dim and bright to off).

Because flashing is so hard to perceive - how the data is conveyed gets complicated.

If you have a transpose +1 - +11 with an octave -1 through -3, then the proposal would be to display a solid DIM [OCTAVE+] button (for transpose up) and the normal blinking pattern or solid of the octave setting on [OCTAVE-].

As an alternative - if you wanted the lights to convey only that the keyboard no longer tuned to C (transpose is + or -) then, perhaps simply dim both [OCTAVE-] and [OCTAVE+] instead of OFF when transposed outside of C. Keep the octave indicator the exact same (blinking or solid). Since currently, both octave- and octave+ buttons will never both be lit - this proposal says if ever they are both lit (one side will be dim and never flashing - the other side will be bright or bright flashing) - this means some form of transpose is in effect. Press shift to see if it is transpose up or transpose down (same as current) and to modify the transposition setting. Whenever the octave is modified + or - you will see a bright side and a dim side. The bright side will be lit indicating the direction of octave adjustment (+ or -) and dim side is showing the transposition is in effect (but not direction of transposition). Flashing will only happen for octave setting (+/-2 or +/-3).

After all this detail - the executive summary is:

1) Montage8 has a use for octave+/-, so treat the same as 6&7
2) There are different ways to improve how to convey the octave and transpose settings (at-a-glance) including button behavior and touchscreen information

I personally hate blinking lights, except while I'm playing if they're beating on-tempo. I'd advocate for using as many levels of dimming as are available.

Totally agree. Any change in pitch (which is not embedded in the part) should be noticeable.

It is... As soon as you touch the key and the wrong pitch comes out, you'll know 🙂 or you should know!

Forgive me, but I said that for all of your music teachers out there who'd expect you would notice a transposed keyboard upon touching it.

When you want to transpose with the montage you hold shift and up or down together.....is it
Possible That in a next update the button lights up when having the transpose "on"?
It would be nice.
Now you can not see if the keyboard is transposing......when you do "octave up or down" the light stays ligthning.....
The same would be great when you transpose!
Thanks!

Fortunately, if you have transposed the Montage the buttons will light to show you that the keyboard is transposed.

If the Montage has been transposed by Semitones -/+ simply holding the [SHIFT] button will light the appropriate Transpose button to indicate the direction of transposition, if transposed, and a drop down appears in the screen to tell you exactly how far it is transposed.

As you know, If the Montage has been transposed by Octave -/+, the lights will indicate this... Steady means 1 oct, slow flash means 2 oct, fast flash 3 oct... It will be a rare thing indeed to be transposed 2 octaves for any length of time, so that should negate/minimize any annoyance or aversion to things that flash. 🙂

In each instance pressing both [-] + [+] Transpose button simultaneously will return it to normal. Be it the "Octave" to normal or when viewing the Semitone transposition.
[SHIFT] +

Holding the [SHIFT] button will also give you indication of whether or not your Assignable FS is set to advance or retreat through your Live Sets.

Simply press and hold [SHIFT] to view the Semitone transposition.

Hi Phil,
Thank for all your wonderful and elaborate advice. However, I disagree on this one.

> Any change in pitch (which is not embedded in the part) should be noticeable.

>> It is... As soon as you touch the key and the wrong pitch comes out, you'll know 🙂 or you should know!
>> Forgive me, but I said that for all of your music teachers out there who'd expect you would notice a transposed keyboard upon touching it.

Exactly, it is. But .... too late.
Imagine playing live on stage: Starting a song with full power brass (let's take In The Stone of EWF or some Tower of Power songs) while the base and guitar players are striking a different chord.

You most definitely will hear that. That's the whole point. I don´t want to hear that. I want to be warned in advance, when selecting a new performance that there is still debris from a former performance active.
ANY transpose (including semitones) should show a warning light. For the small keyboard players, who run out of keys, the octave setting can be blinking. But how can Yamaha ignore the 88 keys players?

Sure you can make pith shift and so on, but the point is when you have studied a song in an original key and in the last minute is decided that the singers need one or two semitones down, it is more efficient to adapt the board than all of your finger-settings, requiring new study or rewriting the score. And then there are songs like Love on Top of Beyonce which starts shifting up at the end. Why bother the risk of mistakes in tonality if you can simply press the up-button subsequently?
I do write a remark in the Live-Set additional text-line, including coloring, but still, sometimes in the heat of the show, I forget to notice. A warning light would be welcome and is not much to ask, as it already exists in the system. It just need to be turned on by the software, We our selves will pay for the extra costs of the electricity. 🙂

I suppose another indicator option would be a setting to control the superknob color or intensity with transposition value. Assuming 0 would be off and other values + and - would be some color or some brightness which could be scaled in which case illuminated superknob = transposed. Dark superknob = not transposed.

I still think the touchscreen is the way to go - but can appreciate viewing angle may make this not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Pressing one button on the keyboard is just about as good as anything is going to get - it's the first "best solution" just behind omnipresent. Even the heat of the moment. Some other indicators or controls force us to go through menu hoops with no single button shortcut and no direct feedback on visible-at-any-angle LEDs.

So for me, the minimum requirements are satisfied with some room for measurable improvement, albeit somewhat marginal.

Was delighted to see this conversation but again it was from almost 2 years ago.

I have no issue with transpose/octave being on the same controls. But give us the option of either:

a) being able to set in setting which is the primary control from these buttons

or

b) allow shift to stay "on" so transpose will be the automatic action from the buttons without having to hold shift too (both hands off keys).

Also a small -4 etc., on the main screen to signify any transposing would be ideal but at the least keep the - or + button lit if transposed.

I understand the complication of making use of the Octave lights for this. (And then what should the lights do if you are transposed and, while transposed, you want to switch octaves too? ) But there should be some indication on the main display screen. Text could be inserted in the blank area at the top of the Live Set screen, or near the patch name. If that's problematic, even just changing the color of the patch name to red (and/or blinking it) could be used as an indicator.