I don't know if there is an Insert Reverb that will do all that, as it does have a shimmer to it, but also a unison thicking effect, as well as deeper bass, cutoff highs, etc.!

I think I could probably replicate that on the Montage using a Cutoff, Motion Sequencing, EQing + Insert Reverb effect "SPX Hall" (setting the Dry Wet to ~D<W38 & LPF Cutoff to 1.0kHz) & Insert effect "Symphonic"

Or you could try the following two Insert effects (plus maybe some EQ'ing if necessary):
1. "Symphonic" under Chorus with LFO Speed (~0.25Hz), LFO Depth (~35), Dry/Wet (~D<W60) and EQ Low Gain (~+9dB)/EQ Low Freq (~180Hz)
2. "Early Reflection" under the 'Misc' category, setting the Type to 'Random', Room Size to something higher (~8.2), the Dry/Wet to (~D<W38), and the LPF Cutoff to (~1.0kHz)

Good call Darryl, since much of what is considered a shimmer effect has much to do with the kind of thickening you get when emulating the unison effect… you can recall our discussion, this thickening effect developed from the same place as the Chorus type effects that are multiple taps — the Roland Dimension D and the Yamaha Symphonic were the grandfathers of shimmer reverb, anyway. Both were staples in the 80’s

Back in the day, (early 1980’s) you had minimal control over the parameters with the Symphonic Effect Type (often everything was completely preset - you selected the amount you wanted). It was used to create a feel of ensemble from single sound sources… pitch and timing offsets, and multiple taps… appeared initially on the Yamaha SPX processors (which ruled during that time).

As you know from your experiments with recreating the Unison tones, the Symphonic is one of those hidden gems… now in the synths in a much more programmable format.

Combining the Symphonic (Chorus) and Early Reflection is a very good start. (The concept of the Early Reflection has to do with the time between the source output and the barrier returning signal.

Combining the Symphonic with a Reverb is going in the right direction. The options available for pitch change or shifting abound. If you have not had time to experiment with the the various BEAT REPEAT effects, walk don’t run… take an afternoon and you’ll find just how far you can extend a slice of time. Beat Repeat is what it sound likes… you can take a moment of time ( a beat) and do just about anything with it over time — including altering pitch!

Shimmer as an effect was born from this kind of combination of functions! Fairly easy to replicate with what’s on board the MONTAGE/MODX!

Hey these effects are pretty cool for what I want to make (generative). I wish I had knew about these when this came out 😀 A whole article could be written about these fx to create randomness. Too bad the part lfo cant modulate more of these parameters at once with sample and hold- like 16 at a time. I want the beat repeat early reflection and symphonic chorus and reverb all on one part 🙂

also is there a way to modulate the part lfo speed and phase?

If someone can still make that deepmind patch on the montage that would be great.

HI im following up on this. If the Montage can make this sound I would like to hear it in a preset. if noone who is capable can provide it then I think the Montage cannot do it.

HI im following up on this. If the Montage can make this sound I would like to hear it in a preset. if noone who is capable can provide it then I think the Montage cannot do it.

If you'd like to have this in a Preset, you can add/request it as a future enhancement via https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com

I am more than capable of programming that sound either via AWM2 or even with just 3 or 4 operators in an FM-X PART. But it would take some time & effort to find the initial sound, and then tweak it to get it right. Then more time to shape the sound via effects/functionality to the desired enhanced sound you want.
We've given you options on what effects/features to use that can help you program it yourself...now you have to take the time and do the heavy lifting. The first thing is to go through various Performances and check various Waveforms to find/create that initial sound, then once you find it (&/or tweak it to get it right), then you need to use the effects/functionality within the Montage to have it sound like the enhanced version that you seek. If I didn't have so many projects of my own to program new sounds that don't exist on the Montage, I might be inclined to give you both AWM2 and FM-X versions of it just for fun, but I don't have time and I don't think you'll find many on here that are going to do that for you. You have to just dig in and program it yourself. We've given you the ingredients to use; now you need to start baking & figure out the recipe. 😉

But make no mistake, the Montage can definitely emulate that sound you seek. I've yet to find a sound not currently on the Montage, that I can't reproduce, as it is a Beast and can do anything I need it to. 🙂

I'm no FM expert and my threshold for matching sounds is pretty low. Meaning - I'm likely to call something "close enough" far away from what you would deem as what you're after.

The motivation is fairly low to take the time to get this done (at least for me). It's not necessarily a sound of high interest for myself combined with how busy this time of the year. Maybe in 2022 I'll take a look at it.

I'm not going to go as far as to say Montage can exactly duplicate this in a manner that matches millisecond-by-millisecond scope captures including all nuances that - if I were to start tackling this - your feedback may be something along the lines of that level of sameness and subsequent veto. I say this because even if you sampled the sound maybe there's a dynamic response that's different while the sampled version may be more static (without an exact matching effect or underlying engine).

For me, I could get close enough with the built-in sounds and/or FM. But that's my threshold - not yours.

@C...

From experience, constantly trying to match someone elses multiple effects' settings will eventually drive you insane.

There is no harm in trying to do this, because you will learn a lot. Although there will come a point when you realise that "Close is good enough" as others have said above.

In the video you posted the guy actually says "Chorus, Delay and Hall Reverb". Listening to the video, this list of effects sounds about right.

The Devil is in the Detail though.

While the Montage/MODX has an enviable amount of great effects, it is not limitless.

There may be some commonality between various manufacturers provision of onboard effects, but it is unlikely any two sets will be the same.

Because the Montage does not provide the same set of effects as the Deepmind, and you like 1 sound on the Deepmind, does not make the Montage inferior.

It boils down to the individual effects. For example, there are hundreds of 3rd Party Chorus effects out there, but no two will sound identical... but they all fall under the same banner.

Where the Montage could probably mimic the base Tone (Oscillator, Filter, Envelopes, LFO, EQ etc), asking it to also reproduce 3rd Party post-production effects is unreasonable.

You do have an option though, and that is to build your own (carefully selected) external effects chain (or "Rig").

You can turn off the Montage FX and run your signal into your effects rig and then into your Amp.

Since I am primarily a Guitarist, I already had stacks of Effects Pedals and a couple of "FX Processors". I have tried my MODX through these and they work perfectly.

Obviously this is extra cost, but you get to choose the effects you desire most.

I am a proud owner of the so called Strymon "Trifecta"... the Strymon Mobius (Modulations), Strymon Timeline (Delays) and Strymon BigSky (Reverbs).

Being somewhat of a Strymon super user, I can tell you that is not Shimmer Reverb on the video, it sounds more like Modulated Reverb (Shimmer is usually cascade pitch-shifted in Octaves, Fifths or both).

Devil in the detail again. As well as the actual FX, FX order and series vs parallel signal chains come into play. Strictly speaking, Modulated Reverb is where the "Wet" (Reverb Reflections) are Modulated, but not the Dry Signal.

You can get similar by running a Reverb into a Modulation, and more of a compromise, Modulating into Reverb, but it isn't the same. Also, the type of modulation may differ between "brands"... Chorus, Phaser, Flanger, Detune (fine pitch shifts), or a choice of many etc.

I love a challenge, so time permitting I will try to unravel those FX and see how close I can get with the MODX onboard FX.

I will also see what I can get with my "Guitar FX".

I still have an old Line6 POD HD... it is somewhat dated technology, but it is still a powerful beast for FX... if you see one for a good price ($200?) Buy it. Its successor, the Helix is > $1000. (I heard Yamaha now own Line6 and that is why the Montage/MODX have such a fantastic FX selection).

There are also some good "compact" pedals that you can have a look at.

Boss pedals are generally a good bet and reliable, and usually well priced second hand. The Boss RV6 has Shimmer and Modulated reverbs. The Boss DD7 has modulated delay and tap tempo options.

The Digitech Polara (Reverb) and Digitech Obscura (Delay) are now discontinued, and were selling new for only US$75 at end of life... worth buying second hand if you can find them... true sleepers. Modulated and Shimmer Reverb, and Delay with controllable EQ (darkening) in Tape, Analog and LoFi modes. Both True Stereo In and Out.

Anyway @C you grabbed my attention and sympathy because I too very often found myself searching for answers to recreate specific sounds.

Watch this space.

This is going to be tricky because the Deepmind has a really good reverb.

As do the Novation Peak and Korg "logue" range.

This has become somewhat of a huge selling point for these neo analogue synths and a major point of difference that these folks (brands) rely on.

A very good reverb can be milked, and this is the reason Antony is focusing on external effects - this seemingly simple sound has a subtle but highly effective character that's explicitly designed to milk that really good reverb.

Whilst the Montage/MODX have reverbs able to run for a long time, their falloffs aren't good (I'd describe them as being clumsy) and their algorithms aren't characterful, flavourful, tasty and full like the ones in the brands listed above.

So you're going to have to inject a lot of character into the sound. This is what Darryl's on about in his first reply, and Bad Mister is echoing.

Or you can use an external reverb. that's great, and get even better than what you're hearing out of the Deepmind, as per Antony's suggestions.

A good external reverb is a great reverb, and a significant step on from even the onboard reverbs in the above listed synths.

When you use a great reverb with slightly noisy sounds - wowsers. It's a whole other thing, in and of itself. Just exquisite, time consuming wowsers. Over and over again.

In fairness, the above listed synths are mono timbral, so the reverb can be as awesome as it can, just to pluck out the best of any single timbre, whereas the reverbs in the Montage/MODX have to work across multiple timbres AND sometimes with insert reverbs, too. So they're probably somewhat deliberately dulled down. But that still doesn't explain away their clumsy falloffs.

Another cheap and HIGHLY flexible option to add to the above list from Antony is the Korg NTS-1 - a little wonder-box, and there's all sorts of custom reverbs for it, as well as the very good "logue" reverb built in. Plus... this is another synth voice, in and of itself, you can drive with MIDI, and send audio through. And route back into a Montage, so you can treat it as a custom effects unit and make it play a slight voice to further accentuate and drive the reverb.

I heard Yamaha now own Line6 and that is why the Montage/MODX have such a fantastic FX selection

Although Line 6 is under the umbrella - the effects haven't cross-pollinated from Line6 to the synths. I've suggested this - and I guess we'll see how this evolves. Line 6 has their own flavor, approach, etc. and it may just be somewhat "incompatible" with the Yamaha way. I'm watering down the technicalities - but there may be more than pride preventing migrating the Line 6 effects over. For guitar/clav/epianos/etc - the Line6 effects would be a welcome addition. The different colors could be good for other applications as well.

If you look at the effects - you'll see lots of overlap going way way back. We did get a few new things - but not evidence that anything substantial is borrowed from the Line6 library.

Thanks for taking the torch here.

@J... I was surprised at just how comprehensive the FX Processor on the MODX was. My initial opinion was it put some guitar oriented multi-FX to shame. Especially since the FX package is just an inclusive add-on sweetener... "case candy". An equivalent standalone Guitar FX processor will probably cost you 1/3 to 1/2 of the price of a MODX7.

I mentioned this in a guitar forum, because Yamaha is not known for FX Processors in the guitar world (by contrast Korg and Roland are). This is how I learned about the Line6 link.

If Yamaha had the inkling pre-Montage to include FX, I'm sure they at least consulted with Line6, if not directly porting the technology.

@C... as someone mentioned above, if you have a Montage, you may as well start now, learning how to do the "heavy lifting".

If you have a good PC or Tablet Screen, bump up the that video resolution to 1080p and you can see some of the settings for that patch "Robbie2 RBr", including Amp, Filter and Pitch envelopes (AEG, FEG and PEG).

You can also see it actually only uses 3 effects in Series - Stereo Chorus, Stereo Delay and Hall Reverb (Rack Amp is OFF, Level = "- -").

There is another YouTube video here:-

https://youtu.be/x4GSzcuHEVU

He plays a lot with the same patch (Robbie2 RBr). You can get more clues from here... e.g. there are 2 LFOs in play, 1 Slow 2 Faster... but what are they controlling?

The tonality of the Oscillators sounds like a combo Brass/Strings sound... so you might want to be looking at Combining SAW and PWM "Elements" in an AWM2 INIT Patch. My first reaction was it had a "Solina String Machine" flavour to it, if that helps.

I had a quick look and selected "OB Saw" as my first Element, to continue experimenting with Envelopes.

The AEG noticeably has a shortish attack, shortish decay to around 80% Level, and significantly a fairly long Release.

There is also a coinciding FEG... quickly opening an LPF (Attack) with a touch of Resonance, then closing slightly (Decay1). I am working with an LPF24A for now.

You might also want to consider downloading two free libraries off the Yamaha site... "Montage Expanded" and "KAPro CS80". This will give you a few more "Analog Oscillators" to play with. The CS80 pack has some similar sounds in it.

If Yamaha had the inkling pre-Montage to include FX, I'm sure they at least consulted with Line6, if not directly porting the technology.

... what I'm saying is that the the effects go back to previous Yamaha products without Line 6. There are a few new effects and the origin story of some of the latest effects is debatable - but I'm talking about the bulk of the effects that go back well before Line 6 would have been in any position to feed Yamaha effect algorithms.

This is incomplete - but the rest follows this trend. I only show the previous 2 generations - but you'll find many of the effects go back further than 2007.

The Motif XF new items actually come from January 2014, 1 month after the Line 6 deal closed. So it's possible that this handful of effects shown here in the orange came from Line 6. Thats about 11/90 = 12% for the list above. And "HD" does seem like a nod to the POD HD (and other "HD" Line 6 products).

Since the primary oscillators seem to be saw and square for Deepmind - when I went about creating the dry sound I just picked an AWM2 saw and an FM square and started fiddling with the AEG of both to get the general idea going. I tied cutoff to superknob so I could "emulate" the slider timbre change most employed in the video. All of this started with the "Init Normal (AWM2)" starting point and went from there. The filter was changed for an "analog" style one.

InsA->InsB->Reverb was the signal chain with no use of Variation and various chorus, delay, and reverb types picked sort of willy-nilly. The effects didn't have 1:1 but there was some overlap and if a parameter on one ranged from 0-127 and the other 0-63 - then I scaled. That's just a starting place knowing that the differences in approaches probably means the 75% mark of full range doesn't make the other sound the same by setting it to the 75% mark. But it's as good as a place as any to setup the initial positions.

I also added the Mini Filter to Variation and liked what that was doing. This is where I start going off script to make something sound good to my ears rather than copy another sound.

What I ended up with after a couple hours of playing and fiddling sounded close enough for me. Although I know my form of "close enough" is a lot different than others. I do hear the difference and don't necessarily need to have someone tell me how it sounds all kinds of wrong and check my ears and all that. But if a gig depended on that deepmind patch - I've got something that will do that patch close enough that the audience isn't going to mind.

Interestingly I found this tutorial on how a shimmer verb is made. even if my first video doesnt use the shimmer effect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzpUbLS1zio