Parts 9 through 16 have keyboard control forced to off. Therefore in order for the tone generator to make a sound when you mash on keys one of the parts 9 through 16 must be selected. The rules for keyboard control is off names that when you select a part with keyboard control off the tone generator is disconnected from all the other parts other than the selected part. Send Parts 9 through 16 have keyboard control forced off none of these parts can be played , by mashing Keys simultaneously with other parts. Anytime you want multiple parts to respond to Keys being pressed they need to be Parts 1 through 8. Because of how keyboard control works you cannot straddle between 9 through 16 and one through eight. Understanding the limitations doesn't necessarily help you setup your performance to do what you want. However it is important to understand what the rules are that govern playing multiple parts with the black and white keys. The properly set up your performance now depends on how you want to control these extra parts which did not fit as an individual part 1 through 8. You have some options and these options provide different compromises. One would be the more fully utilize elements within the parts already used in one through eight. How to invoke these extra elements provides a number of choices. Velocity control or assignable switches or super knob or faders or... another option may involve midi Echo from some other part one through eight to a destination 9 through 16. There are lots of ways the get this done ultimately it boils down to what is best facilitated by your physical playing requirements.

Thanks for your speedy reply!
I guess this is surprising to me because when I was in the Scene editor, it laid out all 16 parts in front of me as though all were available to mix/match. I could Mute everything but Part 1 and 9 onscreen.

Do I understand you correctly:
Are you saying:
a. Any Parts used together in a Scene must be in Parts 1-8. Parts 9 - 16 behave as Solo, even when they appear to be combined with other instruments.
OR
b. Any Parts used together in a Scene must either be together in Parts 1 - 8 or Parts 9 - 16, they just can't "straddle" the 8/9 barrier?

I'm trying to make sure whether it's a limitation or something I'm missing!

FYI: the setup is to allow me to play brass parts with my left hand, low; and woodwinds with my right hand at pitch.
But there are also passages with counterlines between two woodwinds. That's why I set up a second Clarinet part for 2 octaves, so I could play the Clarinet part with the left hand and the Oboe stays in the right.

This piece goes like a bat out of you know where so I will barely have time to punch a Scene button.

Thanks again for your guidance.

a. Any Parts used together in a Scene must be in Parts 1-8. Parts 9 - 16 behave as Solo, even when they appear to be combined with other instruments.

To understand SCENEs and how they apply to your Montage Performance, you must consider the different uses for the Performance program. It will memorize settings for all sixteen Parts. This is independent from whether or not you are actively engaged in playing the Part.

MUTE is a status that can be memorized for any of the 16 Parts. This is a completely separate function from KBD CTRL, which is the way you select a Part 1-8 to be layered (triggered by the Montage keyboard). Only eight Parts can be triggered simultaneously from the Montage keyboard in Performance mode (under keyboard control). These eight always start with Part 1 and you can only select from among the Parts 1-8 for this simultaneous multi channel play.

If your KBD CTRL is activated for Parts 1-4, then Parts 5-16 are, as you say, "SOLO"
If your KBD CTRL is activated for Parts 1-8, then Parts 9-16 are "SOLO"
If your KBD CTRL is activated for Part 1, then Parts 2-16 are "SOLO"

This is independent of what gets memorized in a Scene. If you are using the 16 Parts to recreate a 16 Part .mid file, you might want to mute certain Parts from playing by activating different combinations of MUTE buttons in the Scenes... perhaps you need to Mute the drums on 10, the bass on 3 and the guitar on 7 for the bridge, you might store that Mute arrangement in one of the 8 Scenes. Scene button selections can be recorded to your DAW via MIDI and played back.

A Scene can memorize which Parts are routed to send audio to the outputs... it does so by applying a MUTE (m). This is exactly the same type of MUTE you would find on a mixing console - for exactly the same reason. It can be used for any Part - whether you are playing them directly or not. Scenes can also adjust Volumes of the Parts, Pan positions, Effect Sends, AEG offsets, move the Super Knob Value etc., etc., etc. for any of the sixteen Parts, no special selection is necessary. In other words, you don't have to be actively engaged in playing the Part for it to be affected by the Scene data.

b. Any Parts used together in a Scene must either be together in Parts 1 - 8 or Parts 9 - 16, they just can't "straddle" the 8/9 barrier?

It is KBD CTRL that cannot ""straddle" the 8/9 barrier". Scenes are effective on all 16 Parts.

Scene buttons can change what sounds are sounding by either Mute/unMute, or via Volume adjustment... you have other ways to transition instruments and ensemble sizes. A quick study of some of the Orchestral Performances can point you in the right direction.

Bassoon 3, for example, is an apparent solo Bassoon single Part Performance, but via Motion Control (use an FC7 pedal connected to the Foot Controller 2 jack) you can morph the solo Bassoon into a woodwind quartet: Bassoon, Oboe, Clarinet and Flute. I'm not sure of your particular requirements, but transitioning between sounds can be handled via foot controls (sweep pedals and even momentary switches)

Before understanding what scenes do, I'm encouraging understanding what PARTS do first. Since the scenes only serve as a "snapshot" of settings - you can later translate how recalling a snapshot of settings will work for you. Yes, scenes can apply to all 16 parts - but you need to know the rules of how these 16 parts act.

The only way any of the parts 9-16 will respond directly to key presses (black and white piano keys) is if ONE of the PARTs 9-16 is selected. You cannot select more than one PART at a time. Selecting any part (1-16) with keyboard control turned OFF will, by policy, turn keyboard control OFF for all the other PARTs (all non-selected parts). PARTs 9-16 have keyboard control -forced- OFF, so any time any part 9-16 is selected, it turns off keyboard control for all other PARTs. This doesn't have anything to do with scenes - it's more fundamental. Scenes are not a way "around" this behavior - the behavior is embedded in the core of Montage and scenes inherit this behavior.

If you want to layer PARTs 9-16 with PARTs 1-8: never select any parts 9-16. Instead, have MIDI IN play parts 9-16. I have created a 3 PART performance with the AWM2 initialized PART on PART1, an oboe on PART2, and a trumpet on PART9. I never select PART9 - because that would cut-off control to all other PARTs and only play PART9. What I did was used software to route MIDI channel 2 and echo these note on/off messages to MIDI channel 9. This created a layered sound with oboe (PART2) and trumpet (PART9) - I "muted" PART1 - but if it were not muted I would also have a layer of the piano as well.

Understand the rules of engagement with PARTs and understand scenes do not change these rules.

Either squeeze your PERFORMANCE into PARTs 1-8
or
Use PARTs 1-8 and 9-16, but only use PARTs 9-16 one-at-a-time (selected part)
or
Use PARTs 1-8 and 9-16, never select PARTs 9-16 and have PARTs 9-16 sound through external MIDI messages (incoming)

Performances do not have to be squeezed into Parts 1-8. A Performance is 16 Parts. I know you understand this but you just have a uniquely narrow way of expressing it. Perhaps you meant to say: you can simultaneously control the first eight Parts by linking them via the "KBD CTRL" icon. So for the Parts you'd like to play simultaneously you must activate the KBD CTRL function. The others are accessible.

Not everyone will use the instrument the same but the rules are the same for all types of users. A Performance has 16 Parts, you can layer the first eight for real time play. If you are sequencing - using the Montage as a sixteen Part multi-timbral tone generator - there is no squeezing your Performance... in this instance.

Another completely different use case, would be to use the KBD CTRL Parts to generate a "backing groove", using the other non-linked Parts as individually selectable solo or comping instruments to play on top of or along with the 'backing'. The Scene and Super Knob functions work to maintain control over the backing, while your controllers work for your solo (selected) Part. This allows the KBD CTRL Parts to be setup as backing, via Arpeggios and Motion Sequences, while all Parts not linked to KBD CTRL are available for seamless transitions between lead and comping instruments.

The [PART CONTROL] 1-16 buttons are used to move seamlessly between linked and non-linked instruments among the sixteen that make up a Performance.

The fact that Scenes address all 16 Parts and the Super Knob, and the functions it controls, address all 16 Parts, comes into play when you fully understand that Performances contain 16 Parts (not squeezed to eight) whether you setup to use them, is up to the individual. No specific condition or LED need be lit to have the Super Knob and Scenes to work...

Selecting any part (1-16) with keyboard control turned OFF will, by policy, turn keyboard control OFF for all the other PARTs (all non-selected parts). PARTs 9-16 have keyboard control -forced- OFF, so any time any part 9-16 is selected, it turns off keyboard control for all other PARTs.

Except for what I explained above. The Scenes and the Super Knobs and the AssignKnobs it controls can still be manipulated while you are playing on top with a selected solo Part. So your understanding of this is a bit short of how it actually works. It may appear that what you state is the case but it is clearly, not the case.

You can set a Montage Performance that uses Arps and Motion Sequences, in motion; latch it with the Sustain pedal or hold the trigger notes manually, or setup your Arps accordingly... select your non-KBD CTRL Part, and play on top. The Scene switches, the Super Knob and all it is set to control still are in affect. All other knobs and controls are available for the currently selected solo sound - and since no special condition or button needs to be pressed for Super Knob (or Scene) functions to work, you also can have access to the three rows of Part Knobs (TONE, EQ/EG, ARP/MS) for your individual Part at the same time. Using a FC7 to control the Super Knob means you can morph sounds with your foot, change Arp/MS with the Scene buttons.

The Super Knob and Scenes can dramatically change your backing, as you move Section to Section morphing background instrumentation...and while playing any of the sixteen Parts, please don't 'squeeze' your thinking into just eight Parts, you certainly don't have to, not by any policy. Hope that helps.

Squeezing to 8 is a valid option among several others. Comments about control was limited to scope of direct control since the performer seemed to be focused on playing parts with fingers and not through ARPs or other backing (arranger type) methods.

Even though ARPs can play in the background, for example, of switching to a KBD Control = OFF PART - you still cannot interact with the ARP in terms of rearming. If you had Hold=On for the ARP which is playing, say PART1 in the background (an oboe doing some baroque line) - you can't rearm the ARP to change to a different root note while on the KBD Control = OFF PART because keyboard control is cutoff for PART1 per the rules I outlined. Yes, you can use superknob to change the (PART1) sound in some way - but this is not exactly what I gathered was going to have any utility in this context. You could perhaps setup ARPs to play 7 notes and use one of the ARPs for a Mute part - then "play" notes within a limited range using the ARP buttons. I just gathered from the question the goal was to have manual control of the parts that relate to keys being mashed in either a layered or split way.

You didn't really outline any exceptions - you listed methods outside of keyboard mashing (non-keyboard-control) that parts with KBD Control temporarily shut off (from responding to keyboard mashing) would respond to messages and make sounds. I do know we relate to the terms differently - which is fine.

@ Melissa,

Take a look at options within a Part, particularly with woodwinds. You certainly might be able to combine instruments within a single Part. Take a listen to Bassoon 3 as an example of how combinations of woodwinds are brought in via Super Knob (which can be done while performing using an FC7 sweep pedal). For example, you might be able to program the second Clarinet with Elements within the Oboe.

Also, the same idea - but if you want to instantly jump from full FC7 pedal heel position to FC7 toe position (or superknob full counter-clockwise to full clockwise) - you can use the Knob Position 1 & 2 buttons and set these up for full counterclockwise and full clockwise settings. Just an option of control in addition to the FC7 option (no FC7 required using the buttons). Each is a valid choice - any which works for your performance.

What happen if you physically connect midi out and midi in with a midi cable, then set zone of part 1 to transmit on channel 9? You can use part 9 and part 1 together?

roberto wrote:

What happen if you physically connect midi out and midi in with a midi cable, then set zone of part 1 to transmit on channel 9? You can use part 9 and part 1 together?

You can totally do that. And I found that it works fine - if you take certain precautions (see below). I would be interested in hearing if Bad Mister knows some things which would not work in that case but at least I did not see them. Who knows...

Here is what I have been using at some point:

• You can use the Montage in "single" mode, I found that parts 9-16 will react to channels 9-16 even if the Montage is in "single" mode.
• Against your intuition you have to switch "Local Control" to "on" in "Settings" -> "MIDI I/O" panel. If you switch it to "off" (to avoid loops) then setting any zone to "on" will also change the receive channel of that part, effectively switching local control off. So in that case you could control from each of parts 1-8 only 1 part - not what you want.
• Now you have a problem: All parts which have zone set to "off" will sound twice leading to very unpleasant comb filter effects. So set the zone to "on" for parts 1-8! You can leave the MIDI channel to "off" if you do not want to control any of the parts 9-16 from that part. Now if you want to control one of the parts 9-16, chose one of parts 1-8 where the zone is so far set to MIDI channel "off" and set it to channel 9-16 as you wish. Then you control both.

In effect you can actually play all 16 parts from the keyboard.I tested the various realtime controls including the Super Knob, found all to work fine at least with OS 1.50.

If you feel that the above is a bit clumsy, I totally agree. It can be done but it has one big disadvantage: Whenever you play a performance which does not have the zone to "on" for all used parts from 1-8, you will get the comb filter effects. Since this includes of course 100% of the preset, you can basically no longer play presets. There might be a better way to achieve what you want but I did not find it (unless you use some external MIDI processor between MIDI out and MIDI in).

My personal hope and guess is that at some future update Yamaha will enable the keyboard control for parts 9-16. But as Bad Mister put it, it is not known what future updates may bring...

I "looped" the MIDI cable when Montage first came out and created a 16 part FM voice for an experiment. It should be capable of doing this internally and not have to use a cable. You get really thick FM and it's fun to play. When you have it setup correctly you can select the mixer and observe all 16 parts sounding under Montage keyboard control. You might get a slight doubling effect, test it on a drum voice for example, but with FM and other non-critical note-strike parts who cares. It's actually beneficial like adjusting the note attack with an envelope generator.

It is never recommended to plug the MIDI Out of your keyboard to the MIDI In - nothing really beneficial can happen (and there is no "setup correctly" when it comes to this). I'm not saying you can't (you own the product -do what you like) but when you start thinking a MIDI loop sound cool, well... just for the record: it is not recommended.

BM. I think Stephan commented on how to eliminated the loop issue above. I know it's not "officially" recommended but I think ski_Ex5 from EXtech taught me that years ago. I also have a MOTU MIDI 128 Express. Couldn't that receive and transmit back to the Montage in similar fashion without the loop? I haven't tried it yet. Might still get the doubling delay though.

Bad Mister wrote:

It is never recommended to plug the MIDI Out of your keyboard to the MIDI In - nothing really beneficial can happen (and there is no "setup correctly" when it comes to this). I'm not saying you can't (you own the product -do what you like) but when you start thinking a MIDI loop sound cool, well... just for the record: it is not recommended.

Well, in my case I was able to play 16 parts from the keyboard. Something I couldn't do without the loop. Not that I really ever needed it but for those who need it for whatever reason something really beneficial can happen.

The other thing is that the also nothing bad can come out of it. It is not like a feedback loop in audio. The worst thing which can happen is that it runs out of voices or that you get duplication.

BTW: When going through a sequencer the loop is exactly what you do. You of course switch off the local control in pretty much all cases. But still you have more or less connected the output to the input. And when there is some MIDI processor in between, you can actually do cool things. For example my MIDI controller can act as a looper. In that case I actually do have the local control on...

P.S.: There was actually situation where I would have loved to have the 16 part: I was using the TX 816 E-Piano which hogs all 8 parts. I would have loved to add some string sound to it and also have a split...