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Copying User Control Curves

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 Phil
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I'd like to be able to modify existing Control Curves (Preset or User) and store them to the User slots on my Montage, rather than having to choose a default User Curve and create them from scratch every time. I cannot find a Copy function under any menus to do so. Has anyone else had any success figuring out how to do this?

Thank you.

 
Posted : 19/04/2022 4:27 pm
 Phil
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Topic starter
 

Thank you for responding.

[quotePost id=116196]

I'd like to be able to modify existing Control Curves (Preset or User) and store them to the User slots on my Montage

As you likely know you can't really 'modify' a preset of any type.

My hope is to be able to use a preset curve as a template, make minor tweaks to it, then save it to a User Curve slot. Since I can't find a "Save As" function, I was thinking perhaps I could at least copy an existing Curve over to a default (unused) User slot, then tweak it from there.

And, on the instrument, I don't know of any way to make changes to preset curves.

, rather than having to choose a default User Curve and create them from scratch every time. I cannot find a Copy function under any menus to do so.

There is no 'Copy' function on the instrument as far as I know.

But why do you need to 'create them from scratch every time'?

You can have 72 user curves on the instrument and they are available when you need them. Each of the 8 libraries can have 8 user curves for 64 total there. Then there are 8 in the system area.

If you really need to manipulate curve data 'on the fly' then Bad Mister usually recommends looking into using John Melas tools to do the type of manipulation you ask about.
http://www.jmelas.gr/montage/wave.php

When you copy Live Sets or Performances from one file to another, the dependent User Waveforms/Arpeggios/Curves used by the Performances are copied automatically!
When you reorder or move Waveforms/Arpeggios/Curves on one file, all the Performances that are using them are updated automatically!

Those tools allow you to do extensive manipulation (edit, copy, move) of the various components of a performance.

Another way is to use SysEx and MIDI yourself. The Data List doc has the info you need to send Bulk Data (including user curves) to the instrument.

That would allow you to create your own set of data and, with the push of a button, change the user curve data.

Can you provide more detailed info about just what you are wanting to do?
[/quotePost]

I'm glad the Montage can store so many custom User Curves. The reason I'd like to have a "copy" function is that I'm creating some very specific curves, many of which have step values that correspond to sudden changes, say, in pitch, rather than smooth linear changes. It takes a lot of manipulation between adjusting the input & step values, and the amount of the Curve then that is applied to a particular Part Parameter. I rarely use the same custom curve between different Performances, so I can't just go grab one of the existing User Curves and plug it in. But often if I could start with one custom Curve I created I could easily transfer it to another User slot and tweak that.

As you stated, it probably would be easier to do with the Melas tools. Otherwise, I'll just have to write down all the parameters for one Curve and enter them into another to create another similar (but modified) version.

 
Posted : 19/04/2022 6:48 pm
Darryl
Posts: 784
Prominent Member
 

[quotePost id=116195]I'd like to be able to modify existing Control Curves (Preset or User) and store them to the User slots on my Montage, rather than having to choose a default User Curve and create them from scratch every time. I cannot find a Copy function under any menus to do so. Has anyone else had any success figuring out how to do this?[/quotePost]
Correct if I am misunderstanding, but I think you are referring to Control Assign 'Curve Types', correct!?
- I think this would be a good one to add as an idea on https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com with a bit more detail and refinement.
I think it might be reasonable to ask for the ability to 'Copy' & 'Save' a Preset or other Control Curves, and create new custom curves that are saved in User Memory. There is room available in the Control Assign interface for a new button to Copy &/or Save 'Control Curves'. Or if it makes more sense, to select the Curve you want, press the 'Edit User Curve' button, and then within that Curve Edit window have it open/make a copy of the Preset/other curve as a new User curve (instead of opening the first User curve like it currently does), with a 'new' button in the Curve Edit window to Name & Save it as a User Curve.
- One other thing I would like to see added is the ability to import Control Curves when doing a "Library Import" of a Performance from a Library to User Memory. When doing a Library Import, I came to find out the hard way that 'most' settings and wav file data are transferred with the Performance to User Memory, but NOT an 'Custom' Control Curves. A perfect example is the Organimation Library. I basically did a Library Import of one of the Performances from that Library, then replaced each waveform with a Preset waveform, so that I could remove that Library; however once the Library was removed, the Library Imported Performance was still pointing back to the Library for the custom Control Curves. I had to painstakingly recreate each of the Curves (1 for each element) in User Memory from scratch...
- Similarly (but not fully related), I would like to see them add the ability to Save to User Memory, Custom settings for the various Effects (Insert &/or Common Var/Rev effects), or at least have the ability to copy Custom effects settings in one PART (of the Current or another separate Performance) to another PART of the Current Performance.

 
Posted : 19/04/2022 6:49 pm
Posts: 1717
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Which curves is this about? Sorry to ask such a silly question. I'm not at all clear, @Phil, which you're talking about.

 
Posted : 20/04/2022 12:48 am
Posts: 1717
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@Bill think you're right

@Phil, just wanna be sure before I go off on one of my rants*.

Generally speaking: a list of things that can be copied and pasted around the Montage/MODX OS is far shorter than a list of those things that can't. Universal Copy/Paste should be a thing, for all things, in an OS like this. As should an Undo/Redo "List" of prior user changes to all things. In this idealised world, you could make changes, copy to destination desired, undo changes in active current selection, knowing that it's now safely copied to another Part etc. and continue with sound and motion design.

*according to my ForumFanClub (FFC).

 
Posted : 20/04/2022 4:34 am
Jason
Posts: 7951
Illustrious Member
 

There is ambiguity - but I think guessing these for the presets:

Standard, Sigmoid, Threshold, Bell, Dogleg, FM, AM, M, Discrete Saw, Smooth Saw, Triangle, Square, Trapezoid, Tilt Sine, Bounce, Resonance, Sequence, Hold

... would be pretty close given limited use of "curve" and "control" in proximity.

If this is right, I can say that user curves cannot be facsimiles of the preset curves. The preset curves allow for 128 input values and 128 output values. They are much higher resolution (for many of the preset curves) than one can accomplish with user curves.

An aside - not lobbying, but informing ...

I've posted an Ideascale item some time ago to allow for user curves that define all 128 inputs and outputs. This would require 128 bytes of storage for each such curve - so it's a "tall" ask and not so easy to add an editor for. Not impossible - but I get why the simplified interface was chosen.

 
Posted : 20/04/2022 5:18 am
 Phil
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

[quotePost id=116204]@Bill think you're right

@Phil, just wanna be sure before I go off on one of my rants*.

Generally speaking: a list of things that can be copied and pasted around the Montage/MODX OS is far shorter than a list of those things that can't. Universal Copy/Paste should be a thing, for all things, in an OS like this. As should an Undo/Redo "List" of prior user changes to all things. In this idealised world, you could make changes, copy to destination desired, undo changes in active current selection, knowing that it's now safely copied to another Part etc. and continue with sound and motion design.

*according to my ForumFanClub (FFC).
[/quotePost]

You all have it right! I am referring to the User Curves available for Mod/Control assignment per Performance Part. Let's hope that along with the ever-growing list of great 'adds' posted for Montage/MODX over on ideascale.com, that more parameters can inherit the copy and paste function.

 
Posted : 20/04/2022 7:11 pm
 Phil
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

[quotePost id=116205]There is ambiguity - but I think guessing these for the presets:

Standard, Sigmoid, Threshold, Bell, Dogleg, FM, AM, M, Discrete Saw, Smooth Saw, Triangle, Square, Trapezoid, Tilt Sine, Bounce, Resonance, Sequence, Hold

... would be pretty close given limited use of "curve" and "control" in proximity.

If this is right, I can say that user curves cannot be facsimiles of the preset curves. The preset curves allow for 128 input values and 128 output values. They are much higher resolution (for many of the preset curves) than one can accomplish with user curves.

An aside - not lobbying, but informing ...

I've posted an Ideascale item some time ago to allow for user curves that define all 128 inputs and outputs. This would require 128 bytes of storage for each such curve - so it's a "tall" ask and not so easy to add an editor for. Not impossible - but I get why the simplified interface was chosen.

[/quotePost]

I for one would be a fan of User Curves that had more data points, even if not as many as 128 inputs and outputs. I'm creating curves that are non-linear, and having to use several different custom curves to create starkly different outputs for values below the midpoint of the pitch wheel than those above. In one scenario, I have step values assigned for PB down, and linear values for PB up. Imagine how nice it would be to have a single 128-point curve that could accomplish the same unusual combination of values. Maybe more than the typical user needs. But through owning the MOTIF ES7, MOFX6 and MONTAGE 6, I've always taken these instruments to the limit they deserve to be explored and exploited.

 
Posted : 20/04/2022 7:16 pm
Antony
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
 

I know in 2022, you will scream "Why?".

Being pragmatic however, a Pen and Paper may help!

Tabulate your "starter" User Curve values.

Select a new User Curve #.

Use the arrow keys, the Enter Key, then the number pad to type in (copy) the value.

Amazingly enough, working on state-of-the-art high tech telecoms equipment... this method is all I have to rely on, on a daily basis... lol. I am so used to it, I guess I prefer it... even bigger lol.

(Compared to all the time it takes futzing around to Download, convert to XML, Compile, Convert back and Upload. Some guys do this, but I've done 4 or 5 units while they're still waiting for the automation to grind out 1).

Anyway... old methods are still sometimes the best. Don't get too dependent on tech.

Some of the younger guys I work with can barely write/spell with pen and ink... without a QWERTY keyboard and spell/grammar checker they're screwed.

 
Posted : 21/04/2022 10:34 am
 Phil
Posts: 0
Active Member
Topic starter
 

[quotePost id=116226]I know in 2022, you will scream "Why?".

Being pragmatic however, a Pen and Paper may help!

Tabulate your "starter" User Curve values.

Select a new User Curve #.

Use the arrow keys, the Enter Key, then the number pad to type in (copy) the value.

Amazingly enough, working on state-of-the-art high tech telecoms equipment... this method is all I have to rely on, on a daily basis... lol. I am so used to it, I guess I prefer it... even bigger lol.

(Compared to all the time it takes futzing around to Download, convert to XML, Compile, Convert back and Upload. Some guys do this, but I've done 4 or 5 units while they're still waiting for the automation to grind out 1).

Anyway... old methods are still sometimes the best. Don't get too dependent on tech.

Some of the younger guys I work with can barely write/spell with pen and ink... without a QWERTY keyboard and spell/grammar checker they're screwed.

[/quotePost]

LOL! I agree with you. Does taking a screen shot of the user settings with my iPhone SE (2016) count as an "old method" too?

I still draw out my MIDI and audio cable routing by hand rather than putzing around with a CAD app.

 
Posted : 21/04/2022 12:41 pm
Posts: 1717
Member Admin
 

[quotePost id=116229]Does taking a screen shot of the user settings with my iPhone SE (2016) count as an "old method" too?[/quotePost]

As far as I know, this is Jason's preferred bookmarking and copy/paste and user custom settings saver. Not sure what phone he's using. I've long put an iPad next to the MODX when working, and used that as a note taker with Pencil™ and sometimes screenshots.

Copy/Paste fully implemented would have absolved them of the need to provide a lot of custom preset saves, as we could rely on a few built into Parts and Performances.

And ideally, I'd love for these curves to be usable for Envelopes. It's 2022, as Antony correctly points out. Why can't we have 128 Segments, and actual curves (bezier) to explore sound design and shaping?

 
Posted : 21/04/2022 1:30 pm
Jason
Posts: 7951
Illustrious Member
 

The usual way I advertise and use is to use a notebook and pen. I take digital photos sometimes but end up using the paper and pen more often.

 
Posted : 21/04/2022 7:22 pm
Darryl
Posts: 784
Prominent Member
 

Same here @Jason ... digital photos sometimes, but most times I end up using paper and pen 😉

 
Posted : 21/04/2022 7:40 pm
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