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Don't know how to set a note Hold or Latch for a Part in a Performance...Please help!

42 Posts
8 Users
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter

Me again... I've looked everywhere. My requests are too simple :).
I just want a single Part of a Performance to hold (latch) when pressed. It's a wind noise that Part I've assigned to the top key. I want it to hold and stay when the key is pressed, not arpeggiate and not affect any of the other parts.
Time is of the essence....anyone....PLEASE.

Posted : 08/08/2018 4:10 pm
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

For "Normal" AWM2 PARTs (not drum):

There's not, that I'm aware of, a feature which holds down a key "forever". A couple of ideas:

Since wind noise is, well, noise - it shouldn't matter if the note is held down forever or just held for many measures then let go then pressed again. One way to solve is with an arpeggio which has a long "on" time and almost no off time (extreme legato) and set the arpeggio to loop. You can also set the release to be long such that there is some overlap after the ARP sends a note off. This will give you what you want.

Again with MIDI - you may be able to convert a MIDI file with the note on and a "missing" note off (no note off message) to see if this will allow for a key to be held down forever.

I would personally opt for the first option since there are no unknowns and it will "just work".

You said you do not want arpeggios - so both of these do not work per that requirement. Yet I do think it's the way to go.

The other thing you can do is a mechanical fix. Duct tape the top key or something similar (electrical,or a brick, or ...) so the key is physically held down.

The best you can do without either of these is to have the longest sample you can with the longest release time you can and highest release levels you can set.

For Drum AWM2 PARTs:

The drum part is where you really want this kind of sample to live. You need an ARP to loop - but if the sample is long enough (as long as you want the wind noise to last) - then a drum key will play for as long as the sample lasts. There's a one-shot mode for the key/sample playback which allows the entire sample to play even when you let go of the key. This is similar to cymbals that ring out after you let go of a key. They are not releasing (tapering) - they are just playing through the entire sample. If you placed your wind noise on a drum key and the wind noise is sufficiently long enough - then the entire sample will play through. I'm fairly sure you can have the sample last several minutes. There are limits here - not sure you'll run into them or not.

Posted : 08/08/2018 6:37 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0

Hi Drew,

There are several ways to accomplish this (you seem to want to eliminate the Arpeggio as a method, but know that it can hold a note for you if you so desire). The other methods include the Sustain Pedal, it can hold a note for you when the AEG supports it. If you are using a “normal” AWM2 instrument Part, DECAY 2 LEVEL is the ‘hold’ level. The envelope will travel and reach “Decay 2 Level” and remain there as long as the key or sustain pedal is held.

Assuming that you also would rather not manually have to continuously engage neither the Key, nor the Sustain Pedal, you can opt to program the sound assigned to an AWM2 “drum” instrument Part. The AEG parameters of the MONTAGE drum Key allow the “Decay 2 Time” = HOLD. Which will hold it indefinitely at the last programmed Level.

Other options include creating an audio sample of the wind, Loop it, Import it to MONTAGE and assign that to a Key of the Drum Kit Part set with the AEG Decay 2 Time Set to HOLD. In a Drum Kit Part you can program a “stop key” - by assigning a second “silent” key to the same ALTERNATE GROUP, you can use it to end the looping sound.

There is no musical note “latch” function - latching in modern synths is handled by holding the key, Sustain Pedal, or looping the audio...

The old Hammond organ trick can be used in a pinch, (simple, easy, proven): get a matchbook and gently wedge the top key to hold the note...

Hope that helps get you started.

Posted : 08/08/2018 7:13 pm
Posts: 94
Estimable Member

Similar to Drew, I also want a single Part of a Performance to hold/latch when pressed, but different from Drew 1) it's not a wind assigned to one key but chords that I play in the left section of the keyboard, and 2) I'm happy to use the Arpeggiator for this. I typically want to hold chords when using a drum and/or arpeggio pattern, allowing my left hand to do other things while playing chords. So I want chords to HOLD until I change to another chord, and STOP when the pattern stops; just like arpeggios do if you select Arp Hold On.

I'm happy to read that this can apparently be achieved
- "with an arpeggio which has a long 'on' time and almost no off time, setting the arpeggio to loop" and/or by;
- "programming the sound assigned to an AWM2 ‘drum’ instrument Part, setting the AEG parameters of the drum Key to 'Decay 2 Time' = HOLD".

Surely these solutions are perfectly clear to you, but I'm afraid that I don't know how to achieve is. In another user forum, I learned that others are struggling with the same challenge, so I suspect that I'm not the only one. Therefore, I would greatly appreciate it if someone could give a brief step-by-step instruction for how to set e.g. a String part to behave exactly like Apr Hold On, so: HOLD until the subsequent transition and STOP when the drum/arp pattern stops.

Posted : 14/02/2022 2:32 pm
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

I thought I had a post covering this - maybe I did but can't find it.

There are several ways of accomplishing what you want. One way is to offset the "AEG Release" parameter. Triggered by 1st-On notes I have knob auto spinning the superknob from 0 to around 32. It's not so important - 0 to something. In my experiment I had a single Part (Part 1) and Superknob was spinning Part 1's Assignable Knob 1. Within Part 1 I created a user curve (and, BTW - this is why I can't share the Performance on Soundmondo -- user curve can't be shared) that's bipolar. The curve starts positive, dips negative, then ends up positive (high positive offset).

The operational theory is fairly simple. When you press keys and hold them down until the time to run the motion sequence past the negative offset - the positive offset will make the notes sustain for a long time. Not forever - so this may or may not work depending on how long the notes have to sustain. "1st-On" means the motion sequence will not be reset if you hold one piano keys and add more to that held key. The next time you lift your hand and press another note (or notes) - then the motion sequence will run through the negative offset of AEG Release. This will stop the previous chord/note(s) from sounding and will rearm the new set of notes to sustain for a long time.

With this approach, there isn't a user ARP to create. However, there is a user curve - relatively easier to get to.

This is the user curve detail I use:

Curve Type: Step

Input1=0 Output1=82
Input2=11 Output2=30
Input3=18 Output3=127
Input4=54 Output4=127
Input5=72 Output5=127
Input6=90 Output6=127
Input7=108 Output7=127
Input8=127 Output8=127

Output 2 as 30 is below 64 which means it will end up negative when set to bipolar.

Posted : 14/02/2022 5:07 pm
Posts: 94
Estimable Member

Hmm, I appreciate your help and explanation, but frankly I was hoping for a solution that doesn't involve the Superknob (which I'd prefer to keep available for other uses). Ideally, I would use (or create) an ARP that simply holds a chord until I change to another chord (instead of a dynamic pattern), until the pattern is stopped.

I will try to implement what you suggest, thank you!

Posted : 14/02/2022 5:45 pm
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

It could be done with an MS Lane. Superknob was used both for visualization and also as one control point for multiple Parts. Although mostly for visualization (so I could "see" what equates to the MS Lane going through its values).

It's just something I've got tucked away from another request in my user Performances.

If you use ARPs - I would use the "Normal" type (as opposed to Fixed or Org Note).

Posted : 15/02/2022 1:42 am
Posts: 0
Estimable Member

I probably missed the point somewhere, but wondering why noone has mentioned buying and using a Sustain pedal in the Sustain jack (Yamaha FC4A is what I use).

Posted : 15/02/2022 10:05 am
Posts: 7905
Illustrious Member

I'm answering the request as asked.

Similar to Drew, I also want a single Part of a Performance to hold/latch when pressed,

Normally I link back to the previous discussions. There's a previous thread that handles this with arps that has sustain pedal as a suggestion. Ultimately, that's (sustain pedal) often used because, I imagine, it ends up being hokey actually realizing a solution that "latches" chords automatically.

Posted : 15/02/2022 10:48 am
Posts: 94
Estimable Member

Jason, you are right assuming that I don't mean using a Sustain pedal. I do have and use a Sustain pedal, but that's not what I'm trying to achieve here (in these kind of performances, I need my left foot to play bass pedals and my right foot to control the expression pedal, and I have no third foot yet).

While I very much appreciate your help, I still don't understand why it is apparently so difficult (for users with less synth knowledge, like me) to achieve something so simple: hold notes until other notes are played or the pattern is stopped. Great that this apparently can be done in many ways (Superknob, MS Lane, using ARPs…), but having read several posts and articles on this (e.g., I'm afraid that I cannot achieve this without more detailed instructions.

I noticed that several others have basically asked the same question, which is not surprising since it really helps if you can use your left hand also for other things (e.g. changing rotary speed or switching scenes) while playing chords (Thomas:, Kirk:, Stefan:

Since there are hundreds of arpeggios that play all kinds of sophisticated patterns, I would think that the easiest pattern of all (simply hold the notes) would be no issue. Actually, I did find arpeggios that get very close (e.g. MA_16Beat Pop 1_N does hold notes), however even if I set Change Timing to Real-time, the chords don't change until the next sequence. It seems like my assumption that there is an easy solution for this, using a simple ARP or MS, is incorrect.

If I am right thinking that there are many MODX/Montage users who would value being able to hold notes for certain Parts but lack the knowledge to achieve this themselves, it would be really great if someone could explain or demonstrate how to achieve this in a step-by-step instruction for rookies.

Posted : 15/02/2022 11:11 am
Posts: 0
Estimable Member

Stick the Bass Pedals on an Arp, Sustain Pedal to hold the Chord.

At least that's what I would do.

Or hire another musician.

Posted : 15/02/2022 11:44 am
Posts: 94
Estimable Member

Antony, this may be what you would do, but it does not help me, nor other users who want to be able to hold chords - which can be achieved, as I understand from Jason and BM.

Posted : 15/02/2022 12:17 pm
Posts: 0
Estimable Member

My understanding of "alternatives to a Sustain Pedal" are "bodges" that don't actually do what you need but if you are willing to futz around with it long enough may be you can get it to "almost work".

Maybe our minds work differently. I am big fan of trying to find a solution that fits within the boundaries of what is available. In contrast to, ignore solutions, try to change the boundaries.

There are thousands of Bass Arps. There are zero Latch, Sustain and Release Arps.

Sorry Rob. I was just trying to help.

Posted : 15/02/2022 12:51 pm
Posts: 94
Estimable Member

Agreed Antony, but I hear that what I'm trying to achieve (very basic!) is available WITHIN MODX boundaries. And I'm sure you get that playing bass pedals is different from a Bass Arp 😉

Posted : 15/02/2022 1:00 pm
Posts: 0
Estimable Member

....but I hear that what I'm trying to achieve (very basic!) is available WITHIN MODX boundaries....

I will put my balls on the block and say quite frankly.... I don't think it is. The provided suggestion to your scenario is a bodge. The original request for solution was a way to keep a "wind" sample playing as a backdrop.

What you want is clearly a "Sustained String Pad", changing harmony through a song, without needing to hold down the notes. This is a "Sustain Pedal" scenario all day long.

Bass (or any other instrument) can be played by an Arp as long as there are no more than 16 different "piano keys" involved for the length of the Arp. There is no limit on Arp length (in measures)*.

So unless you are improvising/jamming on the Bass Pedals, an Arp could play the Bass Line for the whole of a Song. If you know, and can play the whole Bass Line, you can record it into Pattern Recorder, and from there turn it into a User Arp... more on that in a different thread.

You could use one of your feet to Trigger the Bass Arp on a Bass pedal (Toggle ARP) and have the same foot immediately free for Sustain Pedal duty.

If the song (or songs) has repeated Sections, and for each of those Sections, the Bass Line is the same within that Section, you can use Arps and Scene Buttons to switch between Arps e.g. Intro Arp, Verse Arp, Pre Chorus Arp, Chorus Arp, Verse Arp, Outro Arp.... you get the picture.

This would necessitate some thought and planning in designing your Arp "Sections" and their segue points.... but the point is, it is doable, and it is intended to be doable.

The other "thing" is not intended... it's made up... it's string and sealing wax... it's not in the tool box... it is a bodge. LOL.

* There may be a limit of 256 Measures to an Arp, but I think this is imposed by the limit of the Pattern Recorder (in order to create User Arps). However, 256 Measures... you could record the whole Bass Line for most any song, beginning to end.

The recommended way however would be to analyse the song and identify instrument "loop points"... these become the extent of your Arps, and the Segue points (Scene Button Presses).

This is all fairly obvious to me now, after 15 months with the MODX. I appreciate that it would not have been at all obvious when I first opened the MODX box.

Anyway... this is a pathway to what you seek.

How do I know this? Try playing the intro, (all the Parts) on one MODX, with just two hands, to Shine On You Crazy Diamond. The first thing you may notice is the shifting String Pad, Gm Gm11.... that's why I bought a Sustain Pedal (FC4A). That is the honest truth.

Posted : 15/02/2022 2:41 pm
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