I'm trying to work out whether or not the eight faders on the Montage become totally redundant with local control disabled.

Not sure what “redundant” means in this context. But when Local Control is Off, much like the Keys on the Keyboard and all the Controllers they are disconnected from directly triggering/influencing the internal Tone Generator in realtime. Instead the messages that they SEND go OUT via MIDI, only.

Running a MIDI monitor, it would appear that the Montage does not send any data at when the faders are adjusted either with local control on or off, so is it safe to assume that the faders are not usable and are unable to be automated through a DAW?

The MONTAGE Faders send Control Change (CC7) when PART CONTROL is active, and they send Parameter Change (Sysex) when ELEMENT/OPERATOR CONTROL is active.

This is true whether Local Control is On or Off. The difference is whether the items transmitted affect the MONTAGE. If you create a MIDI Track in a DAW and set the signal to ‘echo back’ (pass thru a MIDI track) to the MONTAGE (on Port1) the MONTAGE will respond to the messages in real time. But the messages are SENT OUT via MIDI whether Local Control is On or Off.

Thanks for your reply, Phil.

I've discovered at least part of my problem - at the time of posting, my Montage was set to MIDI I/O Mode = Single. In that mode and in hybrid mode, there was no MIDI output of any kind from the faders regardless of being in part or element control mode. I presume this is the expected behaviour, though I don't pretend to understand why.

So I switched the Montage into Multi mode for MIDI I/O, and sure enough, in PART CONTROL mode, with a part selected, I see CHANNEL VOLUME messages being transmitted on the MIDI channel that corresponds to the selected PART, but not according to the fader that is moved. With PART 4 selected, moving any fader will send (identical) messages on MIDI channel 4, as will all the other faders. I'm a little confused by this.

Next, if I go to PART CONTROL -> COMMON, I can see that each fader sends its own data on its corresponding MIDI channel as I would expect. However, I'm confused as to how to echo this back to the Montage from the DAW correctly. Imagine that I have eight tracks set up in my DAW, each one is set to send and receive on MONTAGE PORT 1, CHANNEL %number of track%. If I set all of these to record enable and then move the faders on the Montage, while I see the correct data being sent out of the Montage, in response, each fader's indicator position moves identically in response to the fader currently being moved.

I suppose, with Local Control off, one would expect to use the DAW or DAW Remote to change the channel volume, so perhaps there is no need for the faders to respond individually without local control, though I was quite surprised to see them all moving in unison.

I've discovered at least part of my problem - at the time of posting, my Montage was set to MIDI I/O Mode = Single. In that mode and in hybrid mode, there was no MIDI output of any kind from the faders regardless of being in part or element control mode. I presume this is the expected behaviour, though I don't pretend to understand why.

The why is simple. The primary purpose of controllers outputting MIDI messages is so that they can be recorded and played back to the MONTAGE and reproduce what you did when you originally performed.

Understanding that Faders are cc7 when doing Part Volume, and that all Control Change messages are Channel specific... it would be impossible to send a cc7 message that controlled multiple Parts of a Performance individually... they all would have to respond.

However, if you are in Single or Hybrid those Parts Transmit and Receive on the selected Channel. The Sliders no longer send Part Volume, but the do send System Exclusive (Parameter Change) messages when Element/Operator Control is selected. This means you could be controlling a three Part Performance where the Drum and Bass are each under control of their own Arpeggiator, while you play a B3 sound with pseudo-drawbar Control with the Sliders. This is accomplished by simply selecting “Element/Operator” Control and selecting the organ Part. You may not have noticed that the Slider do, indeed, send information Out via MIDI when addressing individual Oscillator Level.

The cc7 use would affect all Parts together so is nothing special... this can be documented using the Super Knob. or simply by using a Foot Controller set to send cc11 (preferred because the Parts remain in a proportional relation ship to each other as you change the level).

In the above example, the Drum Arp and the Bass Arp are not transmitted as note data, for a similar reason. You don’t want a single channel of note data that merges drum notes, with bass notes with notes you intend to play with the organ sound... they make no more sense on a single channel than does cc7 messages trying address separate Parts on the same channel.

So I switched the Montage into Multi mode for MIDI I/O, and sure enough, in PART CONTROL mode, with a part selected, I see CHANNEL VOLUME messages being transmitted on the MIDI channel that corresponds to the selected PART, but not according to the fader that is moved. With PART 4 selected, moving any fader will send (identical) messages on MIDI channel 4, as will all the other faders. I'm a little confused by this

Multi Mode allows multiple /separate Part Volume via the Sliders... even with Local Control Off... but you must be aware of how the DAW ‘echoes’ the data back to the MONTAGE.

The results you’re getting is likely because you are Re-channelizing the data before you echo it back to the MONTAGE Tone Generator.

Likely you are working with Local Control = Off... if you set a channel in your DAW this is the channel you are sending data back to MONTAGE. Most DAWs are setup to record whatever MIDI channel is sent IN. And the Channel you set for the MIDI Track is the Channel you are routing it OUT on, which DOES NOT have to be the channel it came in on.

A DAW like Cubase, for example, let’s you select “Any” as the Channel — this means whatever the original channel of the Event will be echoed back on that original channel. When you have a Multi Channel transmitting device like the MONTAGE, you want MIDI data to be kept on its original channel. No re-channelizing of the data.

Any fader sends cc7 on the correspondingly numbered MIDI Channel with a Range from — B0 07 00 through B0 07 7F ...would be what Slider 1 would send when moved... if you have a MIDI Track set to Record ... it would document that event. But on the way OUT you have the MIDI Track set to transmit on Ch4 — the message is returned to the MONTAGE as B3 07 00 through B3 07 7F

This is likely how any slider you move seems to documented on Channel 4... you are likely re-channelizing the data by your Track MIDI Out setting.

Imagine that I have eight tracks set up in my DAW, each one is set to send and receive on MONTAGE PORT 1, CHANNEL %number of track%. If I set all of these to record enable and then move the faders on the Montage, while I see the correct data being sent out of the Montage, in response, each fader's indicator position moves identically in response to the fader currently being moved.

Again, different DAW may handle this differently, but most MIDI Tracks record all MIDI channels.
When you create 8 tracks and put them all in record you might be recording the same data 8 times to each of the 8 tracks

MIDI tracks are only separated for the purpose of editing or notation (Only) Otherwise the data is always discreet because of the Channel system. Think about it - separating the MIDI events it is mostly cosmetic, because unlike Audio there is no ‘leakage’.

You don’t need eight MIDI tracks to record eight channels of data. One MIDI track set to ‘echo back’ exactly what it receives is all that is necessary. Cubase calls this “Any”, some DAW Refer to this as the Keyboard input (meaning whatever channel that is coming in is faithfully echoed back)!

In Cubase setup one MIDI Track. Set the MIDI IN to MONTAGE Port 1, set the MIDI OUT to MONTAGE Port 1, but set the Channel = “Any”
(In Cubase Pro, you would use the Input Transformer so each MIDI Track only records one specific MIDI channel).

ONE MIDI Track is sufficient to record all incoming Channels and everything will remain separated by channel.
Now for viewing, editing, notating - you would go to MIDI on the Menu bar, select DISSOLVE PART > “by Channel”
This will place the data on separate Tracks each now viewable individually.

Hope that helps.

As usual, Phil, you've managed to see through the circumstances with crystal clarity - I am indeed not using Cubase at present, but trying to wrangle Logic Pro X to my will.

Thank you for the incredibly detailed, insightful and helpful response. I shall report back once I have given Cubase a spin to see how it should be done, and whether or not I have convinced Logic to do the same.

Cheers 🙂

'All' channel setting identified, faders working as expected, thank you Phil!

ONE MIDI Track is sufficient to record all incoming Channels and everything will remain separated by channel.
Now for viewing, editing, notating - you would go to MIDI on the Menu bar, select DISSOLVE PART > “by Channel”
This will place the data on separate Tracks each now viewable individually.

This never actually occurred to me, though of course it makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

Excellent tip!

For the sake of other users' future reference, Logic Pro X has a corresponding 'Dissolve part' function under EDIT > SEPARATE MIDI EVENTS > BY EVENT CHANNEL, or under the EDIT menu attached to each track.

Excellent. Now that you have it, we really appreciate you including your tip for future Logic Pro users... they all work fairly similarly but sometimes the terminology is what is throwing people.

Dissolve Parts, by channel = Separate MIDI Events, by Event channel
Any = All

...cool! Thanks...

Always glad to share insight or advice on those few occasions when I have it 🙂