Michael Trigoboff wrote:

I asked a similar question about Tyros 5 vs Motif XF a few years ago on motifator. Bad Mister gave me some good advice there about creating performances by using MIDI files of songs.

I just reread that advice along with some associated threads on motifator, and convinced myself that a adding a Genos to my rig is most likely not necessary. Of course, that all may change if I get a chance to sit down with a Genos at some local music store. But there has never been an opportunity to try out a Tyros locally, so I won't hold my breath.

Yes, that was an incredible nice advise from Bad Mister..
And it works quite well
You can imagine how sad i was to find out that there where only 256 user arp locations in the Montage
And i found Bad mister defending this, saying (need to find the quote somewhere)
People dont create their own arps/content anyway, so they dont need more then 256 user arps
And even after the arp creator, they kept the low 256 limit to user arps

This is my biggest disappointment with the Montage
having unlimited user arps would make it much better for my way of use
and it would make my need for an arranger much much less urgent.

Such a disappointment, that i dont create my own arps anymore

This is my biggest disappointment with the Montage
having unlimited user arps would make it much better for my way of use
and it would make my need for an arranger much much less urgent.

Such a disappointment, that i dont create my own arps anymore

Jules,
Come on, that’s just not right.

The MONTAGE is eight Motif XFs... yes there are 256 Arpeggios (this makes it easily compatible with the previous model)... but are you forgetting you multiply that by eight. As I understand it, (and we’ll put you in charge of testing this)... but as I read the spec each of your eight Libraries can have 256 Arpeggios... this means you can have 2,048 of your own Arpeggios in Libraries and another 256 in your currently loaded User Bank.

“Unlimited” is not a realistic specification/request. You can create 2048 User Arps that stay as apart of your instrument, and use the 256 in the User to swap others ... I don’t know how many you have but if you’ve given up I guess none of this information is helpful. My biggest disappointment is that you have given up without reading the manual... alas 🙁

Bad Mister wrote:

This is my biggest disappointment with the Montage
having unlimited user arps would make it much better for my way of use
and it would make my need for an arranger much much less urgent.

Such a disappointment, that i dont create my own arps anymore

Jules,
Come on, that’s just not right.

The MONTAGE is eight Motif XFs... yes there are 256 Arpeggios (this makes it easily compatible with the previous model)... but are you forgetting you multiply that by eight. As I understand it, (and we’ll put you in charge of testing this)... but as I read the spec each of your eight Libraries can have 256 Arpeggios... this means you can 2,048 of your own Arpeggios in Libraries and another 256 in your currently loaded User Bank.

Unlimited is not a realistic specification/request. You can create 2048 User Arps that stay as apart of your instrument, and use the 256 in the User to swap others ... I don’t know how many you have but if you’ve given up I guess none of this information is helpful. My biggest disappointment is that you have given up without reading the manual... alas 🙁

Point taken...

Never looked into librarie files, because i barely need/use them... Only have a few hundred user performances which all reside in the user bank..
Somehow i never tought of the librarie files as a place to save the user arps, and totally overlooked this... more then 2000 user arps definitely made me jump onto this again.

I should have asked earlier..
Thanks for the enlightenment...

😮

In general your USER Bank is like your work area. While a Library is a place you can add what YOU want to your instrument’s ROM... The “dream” so many years ago, was to eventually have a synth where the user could install their own, custom selection of data... that time is now!

I just went through the process that Bad Mister suggested for taking apart a MIDI file and using the pieces of it to make arps for a backup band. It was complicated here and there, but it ended up working like a charm. I'm sure it will be a lot easier the second time I do it, and straightforward thereafter.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, BM.

Hi --

I had a chance to think a little more about the Genos specs. There is quite a big jump in the number of Mega Voices, Super Articulation voices, and Super Articulation 2 voices -- a bigger increase than we've seen with previous Tyros-to-Tyros upgrades.

This is enabled by the new tone generation hardware.

I think the end result will be highly detailed, expressive voices that are fun to play. It ain't no accident that Yamaha added a third articulation button in addition to the knobs and sliders.

The changes in the hardware have good implications for the Montage product line, too.

More at: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-articulation-future/

All the best -- pj

Any insights as to what the implications are for the Montage, are we getting anymore Mega arps : Voices? is that what the article is implying when it sez "you aint seen nothing yet"?? ..... what more could be coming to the Montage that we do not already have???

Hi Mitchell --

I tend to think about the Genos and Montage as brother and sister in the same way that Tyros and Motif are brother and sister. Different, but they share the same technological DNA and a lot of the same musical DNA (waveforms and voices).

Since the two flagship products are on different development schedules, they tend to leap frog each other with respect to new waveforms and voices. This was certainly true over the 10+ year history of the Motif and Tyros product lines.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but sound development at Yamaha seems to be a continual process. The next top-of-the-line (TOTL) taps into the latest results. Expect larger, detailed waveforms and more articulations in future voices. Also, stereo doesn't rob polyphony anymore.

So, yes, I would expect the newest voices from Genos to eventually appear in the Montage series: C7 acoustic piano, resonator guitar, Strat, Revo drums, Mega Voices, etc. We haven't seen the Data List for the Genos as yet, so it's hard to do a detailed analysis of what's new in Genos above Montage. Would Montage voices be programmed differently? Sure, Montage and Genos are different platforms serving different needs.

I think it's safe to say that there will be a re-spin of the Montage hardware sometime. When? That's on Yamaha's secret road map. Like the Genos, the Montage sound engine is scalable and can grow into new shoes, so to speak. Everything else in the crystal ball is vapor.

Beyond all that, I see a revenue opportunity for Yamaha by providing new waveforms, voices and related content through Yamaha Musicsoft. If I had a TOTL synth with expansion memory, I would be willing to pay for a sonic upgrade. I currently play a "lowly" MOX6 without expansion memory, so I'm looking for a new platform -- either Montage or Genos -- based on my musical needs, goals and process.

Hope this is helpful -- pj

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

As someone that owns both a Genos and Montage, and has previously owned both a Motif (XF, ES) and Tyros 5, whilst there is some technology crossover between the instruments, their functional lineage is quite distinct. The Montage is a synthesizer, and has "evolved" from the Yamaha synthesizer line, whilst the Genos has "evolved" from the arranger line, and before that their organ (or Electone) line.

I'm not talking technological evolvement, but the purpose of the instrument. Back in my early teen days, Yamaha Electones were very popular, and Yamaha Electone festivals drove sales of their Electones. Over time, Electones (or organs) became less popular and (in Australia at least) Yamaha stopped importing Electones and instead marketed single keyboards and eventually arranger workstations as replacement (and dare I say easier to sell) instruments.

All this time, the Yamaha line of synthesizers continued to evolve in parallel, and we have ended up where we are today, with the Genos being the latest flagship in a line of arranger keyboards (I personally think calling it a digital workstation is confusing) and the Montage being the latest flagship in a line of synthesizers.

Perhaps Genos = one man band, and Montage = band/studio instrument. Probably too simplistic, but I'd never use a Genos on stage in a band, and I'd never use a Montage in a one man background music gig on a cruise ship.

Whilst the technological comparison is interesting, the instruments are IMHO chalk and cheese when it comes to purpose.

BTW Yamaha, where is the downloadable reference manual for the Genos? 🙂

Currently only the owner's manual is available. They will be available here (regional Australian link given):

https://au.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/downloads.html#product-tabs

Overall, Rod, you have a good perspective on exactly what is happening. It is obvious, to me at least, you have a handle on exactly the situation. There is an obvious refocus of the “one-man band” Arranger features built into the Genos’ pedigree toward its usefulness in the songwriter’s toolkit. Arrangers have always featured content from a wide variety of historic and current music genres, instead of entertaining in the “one-man band” tradition, you can immediately see the usefulness in original song competition. Having taken prototypes to cities like Nashville, New York, Chicago, LA. etc (examples of cities in the US where you can make a living writing music for hire, from pop/country songs to jingles and movie scores) the response we receive is often “how come no one shows me this when I’m in a music store”... so it’s absolute usefulness as resource for original song writing is now more the focus (versus the traditional one-man band thing which of course, it still can do handily).

Again, I would encourage anyone interested in learning about the differences, spend some time with them (which can be done by visiting your full line Yamaha dealer) Your comment about stage and the cruise ship is really close to the target in defining the important difference... and while, of course, you could, it’s just, as I’ve tried to point out... it’s the general FOCUS of the products lend themselves to certain uses.

A chord intelligent keyboard with content that spans the musical lexicon....
Great sound (forgive me) is a given, it’s a Yamaha!
Clearly there is a focus, clearly there is an area of overlap, but Rod, owning both, has captured the reality of the situation.

Thanks BM, I'm pleased that my ramblings made some sense 🙂 This is not really the forum to be talking about Electones (of which I've owned more than I care to admit to, including a GX-1). See www.bigbod.net if you are interested.

I hope that in the US, Yamaha retailers are given some education around the focus of instruments. In Australia, I do feel that retailers can be lazy and not really understand the instruments that they have on the floor. When buying my Montage, a salesperson tried to talk me into a Kronos, as the he couldn't press an "edit" button on one of the Montage screens (it was greyed out). Apparently the Montage was therefore released too early 😉

Hi Rod,

Thanks for your info and your interesting website.
In Holland I still have to wait for two more weeks for the delivery of my ordered Genos.
Yes, Genos is probably meant as a stand-alone one-man-band.

But then being curious, do you already have any experience in (midi-)hooking them op together?
Like using the Genos as a backing module, playing the Montage.
Or e.g. run the chord recognition for vocal harmony from the Genos by playing on the Montage?
Or even more complicated using it (again/resend) as input for Montage-processing?

Just wondering, while waiting for my new toy to explore.

Man having both could be fun, nice to see the heritage.